Star Wars Saga (OT/PT/ST) Discussion Thread

[jye4ever]

No thanks. What we got in ROTS was far superior and more sophisticated than what you are suggesting. It's sad to see Jye and Khev trolling by bashing the PT yet again. But trolls do what they got to do I guess.

What was so sophisticated about their duel

Was it the baton twirling part lol

 

[a-dev]

Meanwhile a-dev - see's people bashing the PT - agrees with all points. See's people bashing the ST - agrees with all points. Life is easy this way.

edit......wait....is it see's or sees......

 

[Prime Clone]

Just like Wars and Trek, I like the PT and ST, warts and all - it's not an either/or proposition.

Of course the OT trumps both (and is the whole reason we care about either).

 

[ZE_501]

Meanwhile a-dev - see's people bashing the PT - agrees with all points. See's people bashing the ST - agrees with all points. Life is easy this way.

 

[JAWS]

SWT guy is proclaiming the Anakin Obi fight in ROTS as being the most epic sword fight in cinematic history.

Dumb statement is dumb. It might be the most disappointing duel in Cinematic history.

It wasn't even the best sword fight in that movie, lol.

Hmmmm... I think I might enjoy the Dooku one more then the Obi vs Anakin one. IDK.

 

[JAWS]

The anakin v Obiwan fight is without a doubt the best fight in the movie. Yes some scenes were silly looking but the music and sheer emotion in the fight is amazing. Now it being the BEST stat wars fight is debatable but it is an iconic fight but I wouldn't expect two lovers of the ST to understand good Star wars media.

Just for a moment.. Step back and look at ROTS for what it is.. A huge missed opportunity. I know you saw it at the perfect age and your love for it is tied to that.. But the film itself suffers from all the same issues as the previous two films.

You state that the sheer emotion is something to that makes the scene amazing..

I think without question the "Sheet emotion" is were we really differ. but here are some my issues with that Duel in general

Mind you this is coming from someone who loves TPM fight so its not PT hate.

1. The duel was a missed opportunity because there was no emotion. Some of this has to do with the fact that we know the outcome. Which is no fault of the scene. It is what it is.. But I have watched films many times where I know the outcome and still I am on the edge of my seat.. The Troy example is a good one.. Every damn time I watch that I hope Hector does not die and finds a way to win.. I find it amazing that an average film like Troy makes me care more about Eric Bana as Hector then a three film lead up of Anakin and Obi Wan. You never believe in their friendship and we are never allowed to care about them as a team. Sure if I bring in TCW I can trick myself into thinking there is more there then there is but nope.. its just not.

2. The acting. I know it gets harped on a lot.. But its hard to get pumped up when Hayden is yelling "you will not take her from me" and "my new empire" speech. A great duel should not have you squirming in you theater seat due to cringe.

3. The drama is ruined by the cuts to the cartoon fight of Yoda and the Emperor.. This is the duel we have been waiting for. Don't cut away to something as ridiculous and unneeded / unwanted as Yoda vs The Emperor. Cutting away can be done to good effect like in ESB but cut away to something that matters (the attempted rescue of Han or the escape of the hero's from Bespin) but ROTS just gives us the over the top cartoon of CGI Yoda vs (at times) CGI emperor. I mean am I not supposed to laugh when the emperor's feat are straight up in the air after yoda pushed the force back at him

4. Two much of an Average thing. Nothing about the saber duel really stands out. Seriously you can usually pick something about a saber duel in a SW film that makes it stand out.. And this film either has moments that you remember for the wrong reason (CGI back flip to start the fight, the unison light saber swirl, lava boats) or is trying just to hard to be fast and furious that its kind of a mess.

Not the best gif but we all know the movie.. But really.. What the hell

5. This goes with number 4. Now this is not really George's fault.. Or maybe it is.. and it is the lesser of my complaints but two Blue Sabers made the duel much harder to follow.. Give Obi wan a green one. That way the stunning chorography and work the two actors put in could be better appreciated and followed. Like the shot above.. It would have been maybe a bit more dramatic and easier to follow if it was a green vs Blue saber.. Yes I know Obi Wan has a blue saber in the OT but the way these guys go through sabers i am sure there could have been some excuse..

Also as the above gif also shows There are times where George has the camera a bit too close to the actors where its hard to tell which saber belongs to who..

This is a great move but I don't like the shot set up as it almost hides the complexity of the move. Not so much in this gif as it is sowed down a lot.

Remember how TPM Diel of the Fates was shot.. I mean there were three fighters and a duel saber but easy to follow and appreciate due to lighting, saber colors.. and Probably Rey Park having an understanding of how to choregraph a fight scene for the screen.

6. Then there is all the unneeded cable swinging and Lava dodging and lava boat riding... It at best is boring, it is at worst dumb looking.

7. I have the higher ground.. Really?? The duel we have been waiting for ends that way??

Granted I dont want to see obi wan cutting off pieces of Anakin and we end up with a Monty Python type fight (Ill bite your legs off) but it was just so anti-climatic. Plus Obi Wan already proved that having the higher ground meant nothing in TPM.. Maybe its just a blind spot for the Sith.


I just look at ESB and how the dialogue, setting, and how it is all beautifully shot puts ROTS duel to shame.

You don't need emotional music to trick you into how you should feel.

Return of the Jedi suffers from cuts to Endor and Ewok's.. That takes away from some of the drama also. But you still have the great dialogue to help carry the scene.

TPM is pure action and done in the best way possible..

I wont bring up the ST because I dont think you can get past your bias of those films and those films deserve some criticism for their dues for sure also.. TLJ throne room is only a small step above AOTC obi wan / anakin / Dooku duel


But they also deserve some more credit then some are willing to give in how they are beautifully show and yes carry some emotion.. Sorry.. I cared more about Kylo and him turning to the good side then I did about Anakin turning to the bad. But that is Lucas' fault not mine.

Lol cause of OT stans like you afriad of change and whining cause it wasn?t like you predicted in the 70s

See above

Now look what happened. You got your sequel trilogy without Lucas and people are practically begging him to come back . Pt rose in popularity but the ST is long since forgotten and only a small tiny handful of people enjoy it cause they can?t accepted that it?s actually trash and the long awaited sequel they waited for amounted to nothing.

Not to many. It has its fans.. So statements like this directed at Khev and Jye mean nothing.

And Im sorry you cant call a film trash while simultaneously defending any of the films in the PT.

Meanwhile the once hated PT is now being looked at as iconic but with with some flaws but still enjoyable flicks . Stop crying and accept the PT is now widely accepted by fans. Even the worse film is.

You need to look at Khevs top 30 films of all time

And I have yet to find very many who dont put TPM and AOTC at the very bottom of the SW film rankings.. So.. I dont think that statement is correct.. At all.. People like ROTS because they are tricked into thinking Dark = good

I can name a iconic scene from each film hood or bad from the PT. I can?t for the life of me name an iconic scene from ST

I actually don't disagree with this.. But all the iconic scenes from the PT come from in TPM.. Only reason ROTS has any is because its what we all were waiting for..

The PT does have more unintentional laughs in it.. by like a mile.. The cringe is strong in that series.

There is a reason TLJ is so hated by many.. Its the most like the PT of the new films.

 

[JAWS]

Meanwhile a-dev - see's people bashing the PT - agrees with all points. See's people bashing the ST - agrees with all points. Life is easy this way.

You are not wrong.

I really don't get the ST vs PT fight.

I only end up involved because I watch people bash on the ST but fight so hard for the PT..

Now one could say why don't I do the same for when ST fans bash on the PT.

To that I say.. I happen to like one of the films in the ST (TROS) that helped me enjoy TFA more and also helped me accept and become more forgiving of the PT.

But if anyone want to say that TLJ is better then then PT full stop I will have no problem arguing against that. Same goes for TFA.

But I liked TROS warts and all.. So I find myself defending the ST more.

Plus I prefer the solid acting and directing that the ST has over The PT.. But the PT has better overall cohesive story. But does that matter when much of the acting / directing / and dialogue is so bad??


I think both sides have a leg to stand on because they are both right and wrong at the same time

 

[Khev]

1. The duel was a missed opportunity because there was no emotion. Some of this has to do with the fact that we know the outcome. Which is no fault of the scene. It is what it is.. But I have watched films many times where I know the outcome and still I am on the edge of my seat.. The Troy example is a good one.. Every damn time I watch that I hope Hector does not die and finds a way to win..

I know right.

I find it amazing that an average film like Troy makes me care more about Eric Bana as Hector then a three film lead up of Anakin and Obi Wan.

So true.

 

[Khev]

But if anyone want to say that TLJ is better then then PT full stop I will have no problem arguing against that.

I watched TLJ again recently and am continually surprised that for the SW film with the longest run time it is actually one of the easiest to watch in one sitting. The pacing is absolutely perfect. For whatever criticisms that are leveled against it you can't say it is ever boring. Arguably every other SW film (OT included) has either moments where your mind might be tempted to wander or you just get outright bored. Not so with TLJ.

Sure you can say that this part or that part is stupid or annoying (mama joke, saber toss, milk drink, Canto Bight, etc.) but all those parts actually go quite fast (yes even the entirety of Canto Bight is what, 10-12 minutes of run time, and not even all at once) *and* they're either beautifully shot, very well acted, or both.

And like the Hector fight I can't help but wince every time Kylo Ren shoots those torpedoes into the rebels' main hangar and blows up Tallie and all the other pilots and not wish that they somehow avoid the blast. The editing, music, and tension of all the scenes that culminate during the Holdo maneuver (Rey and Kylo reaching for the saber, Finn and Rose's execution, the exploding transports, lightspeed kamikaze) is endlessly exciting and rewatchable. Kylo turning the blade on Snoke and then it flying to Rey's outstretched hand is still one of my favorite moments in all of SW. I know that the ST derangement against the perceived SJW agenda of this film and resentment against a number of RJ's dumb tweets is so strong that many will never admit it but there is *a lot* to like and even love about this film.

And that's not even addressing Mark Hamill's stellar performance as Luke freaking Skywalker.

 

[ZE_501]

1. The duel was a missed opportunity because there was no emotion. Some of this has to do with the fact that we know the outcome. Which is no fault of the scene. It is what it is.. But I have watched films many times where I know the outcome and still I am on the edge of my seat.. The Troy example is a good one.. [...]

I just watched Troy for the first time a couple of months ago. That duel feels *dangerous*. It looks like it could *really* hurt, and both combatants appear to be in jeopardy.

Anakin and Obi Wan in ROTS look like ravers by comparison. Too much lava (let's not even get into the reality of being in proximity to molten rock), too much terrible dialogue, and too many meaningless flourishes.

The TPM duel no doubt had input from Parks, and all credit to the other actors, but he was just physically capable of much more; he really helped sell it. Nick Gillard killed it with that choreography wherein the flourishes actually worked as feints and misdirection, but for any number of reasons he misses on ROTS.

In my opinion, what would have sold the ROTS duel was a fast, brutal, full-on Kendō style fight that referenced ANH (obviously better though) and kept both dialogue and scenery to a minimum. Lucas himself said that contrary to a lot of Sci-Fi of the era, the OT didn't linger too long on scenery in favour of narrative momentum. But by ROTS he was so enamoured with what he could do, he never stopped to ask if he *should* do it.

Had that fight been filled with understatement and dread, it would have had the gravitas Lucas was reaching for. Overreaching.

I've been on the other end of foils and sabres when I took fencing, after retiring from amateur combat sports. My two takeaways from my time in fencing:

1. I suck at fencing. lol ... I started too old)
2. You die extraordinarily quickly. It's *so fast*.

Even if you're an expert, because at that point it's about who makes a mistake.

When Lennox Lewis got knocked out in 2001 it was because Hasim Rahman got lucky. Arguably Lewis didn't respect him and wasn't in great shape for the fight, but bottom line, Rahman landed the one shot that counted. He was promptly dismantled in their rematch.

When Obi Wan and Anakin fought, we didn't need a complicated and goofy reason as to why he lost. He just needed to make a mistake.

 

[Khev]

You need to look at Khevs top 30 films of all time

The PT is simultaneously in my Top 30 and Bottom 30 films of all time.

When I need a break from OT/ST and get an itch for the zany time that was the PT I always go back to them. Then when I actually watch them I both get sucked in to that era and disgusted by the execution while amazed at many of the cool designs, lol.

I'm basically Gollum when it comes to those films.

"Nope, not canon. Not canon."

"You're a liar, and you love them."

"Go away."

"Preeeequel faaaaaan."

 

[ZE_501]

1. I LOL
2. That?s an informative insight into the Mind of Khev


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ajp4mgs]

I watched TLJ again recently and am continually surprised that for the SW film with the longest run time it is actually one of the easiest to watch in one sitting. The pacing is absolutely perfect. For whatever criticisms that are leveled against it you can't say it is ever boring. Arguably every other SW film (OT included) has either moments where your mind might be tempted to wander or you just get outright bored. Not so with TLJ.

Sure you can say that this part or that part is stupid or annoying (mama joke, saber toss, milk drink, Canto Bight, etc.) but all those parts actually go quite fast (yes even the entirety of Canto Bight is what, 10-12 minutes of run time, and not even all at once) *and* they're either beautifully shot, very well acted, or both.

And like the Hector fight I can't help but wince every time Kylo Ren shoots those torpedoes into the rebels' main hangar and blows up Tallie and all the other pilots and not wish that they somehow avoid the blast. The editing, music, and tension of all the scenes that culminate during the Holdo maneuver (Rey and Kylo reaching for the saber, Finn and Rose's execution, the exploding transports, lightspeed kamikaze) is endlessly exciting and rewatchable. Kylo turning the blade on Snoke and then it flying to Rey's outstretched hand is still one of my favorite moments in all of SW. I know that the ST derangement against the perceived SJW agenda of this film and resentment against a number of RJ's dumb tweets is so strong that many will never admit it but there is *a lot* to like and even love about this film.

And that's not even addressing Mark Hamill's stellar performance as Luke freaking Skywalker.

Keep in mind that the "agenda" supposedly driving the Poe arc culminates in everyone turning to Leia and her saying, "What are you looking at me for? Follow him."

And the alleged "anti-capitalist agenda" was nothing of the sort as it was merely context setting about war-profiteering and those who prosper from it. Y'know... the types of things that President Trump rails against interventionists for.

My favorite anti-TLJ rants, though, are the ones about Luke's arc. And *especially* when they're mentioned in the same breath when contrasting how someone like Dave Filoni understands the characters so much better. You know why that comment amuses me? Because here's something Dave Filoni said back in May of 2014:

"I think Luke understands that it's not about what he wants. It's not about what he gains. It's frankly about what everybody else gained. Sometimes, you have to be the one that carries that burden and becomes that vessel. These aren't characters that go and get married. They don't get over the scar. Frodo carries the ring to Mount Doom and for the rest of his life is plagued with fear. On certain days, he remembers those pains. Because he has to carry that burden. And Frodo has no peace until he leaves that world. Luke is that character."

But you don't see any "Star Wars Theory" videos where he's being mind-blown about that, do you?

 

[Khev]

Keep in mind that the "agenda" supposedly driving the Poe arc culminates in everyone turning to Leia and her saying, "What are you looking at me for? Follow him."

Yep. And remember that half of Poe's supposedly toxic male mutiny was *female.*

*And* all three of those pilots who stand with him against Holdo don't "learn the lesson" that Poe was wrong. Nope, they stand with him there and then all three are shown piloting ski speeders with him on Crait.

And the alleged "anti-capitalist agenda" was nothing of the sort as it was merely context setting about war-profiteering and those who prosper from it. Y'know... the types of things that President Trump rails against interventionists for.

Very true. They obviously play the glasses of wine clinking together after Rose says that they're horrible people as a joke to *imply* that maybe she despises the rich but then when Finn forces her to get specific on the balcony she then concedes that she only resents them because of *how* they got rich (war profiteering.) Now you can roll your eyes at speeches against war profiteering or cruelty to animals but really are either of those topics actually divisive in nature? No. That isn't "Orange man bad" or "all males bad" crap. Pretty much everybody in the audience agrees with Rose regardless of gender or political party, she was just a frumpy looking dork, that's all, lol. BUT even having said that her acting and line delivery was solid throughout.

My favorite anti-TLJ rants, though, are the ones about Luke's arc. And *especially* when they're mentioned in the same breath when contrasting how someone like Dave Filoni understands the characters so much better. You know why that comment amuses me? Because here's something Dave Filoni said back in May of 2014:

"I think Luke understands that it's not about what he wants. It's not about what he gains. It's frankly about what everybody else gained. Sometimes, you have to be the one that carries that burden and becomes that vessel. These aren't characters that go and get married. They don't get over the scar. Frodo carries the ring to Mount Doom and for the rest of his life is plagued with fear. On certain days, he remembers those pains. Because he has to carry that burden. And Frodo has no peace until he leaves that world. Luke is that character."

But you don't see any "Star Wars Theory" videos where he's being mind-blown about that, do you?

Nope, selective hearing at its finest. Filoni is a god who understands SW like no other...except when he doesn't. But we don't talk about that in these parts.

I also love how people complained for months on end how RJ brought in stupid "non-Star Warsey" elements like ships needing fuel. Never mind that all the way back in 1977 we got like half a dozen shots of ground crew detaching fuel hoses from X-Wings before they lifted off to attack the Death Star. Or Obi-Wan asking the little cartoon critters on Utapau to refuel his Jedi Starfighter in ROTS. Forget all that because RJ just doesn't understand SW, lol.

 

[ZE_501]

Filoni is a god who understands SW like no other...except when he doesn't. But we don't talk about that in these parts.

I probably take a shot at that overrated hack once a week, but I guess you can't hear me over the sound of how awesome you think the ST is.

 

[ajp4mgs]

All great points, Khev. And all true. But all repeatedly and consistently overlooked. A narrative got formed, and people become locked in concrete to it.

Yep, RJ doesn't understand or care about SW at all. He just immersed himself in it throughout his childhood, and idealized George Lucas, and went to USC because that's where his hero went. But nope, he's not a fan.

You'd think the one guy who praises *both* previous trilogies - and can quote the ****ing things backwards and forwards - would get a little more benefit of the doubt with the fanbase. I readily acknowledge that he took criticism too personally, and that he needs to grow a pair, but to keep pretending that the guy doesn't know and *love* SW is just asinine.

 

[Khev]

1. I LOL
2. That?s an informative insight into the Mind of Khev

Yep, lol.

I probably take a shot at that overrated hack once a week, but I guess you can't hear me over the sound of how awesome you think the ST is.

My apologies, yes the music is very loud over here, lol.

Spoiler

 

[ZE_501]

Yep, lol.

My apologies, yes the music is very loud over here, lol.

[...]

Missed opportunity, cutting those scenes. Would've improved the ST.

 

[Khev]

Missed opportunity, cutting those scenes. Would've improved the ST.

I also rewatched ROTJ and then TFA recently and when the opening crawl for TFA began I forced myself to imagine it saying "Turmoil has once again engulfed the galaxy since the downfall of the Empire. Somehow Darth Maul has survived and taken on a new apprentice DARTH TALON. Both horny red people now lead the sinister CRIME SYNDICATE. Alarmed by this turn of events Chancellor Leia has--"

...and I just thought no, no, no. Bookending the OT with two Darth Maul trilogies would have just sealed the "prequelization" of the entire Saga. I'm so glad that never happened.

 

[jye4ever]

Yep. And remember that half of Poe's supposedly toxic male mutiny was *female.*

*And* all three of those pilots who stand with him against Holdo don't "learn the lesson" that Poe was wrong. Nope, they stand with him there and then all three are shown piloting ski speeders with him on Crait.



Very true. They obviously play the glasses of wine clinking together after Rose says that they're horrible people as a joke to *imply* that maybe she despises the rich but then when Finn forces her to get specific on the balcony she then concedes that she only resents them because of *how* they got rich (war profiteering.) Now you can roll your eyes at speeches against war profiteering or cruelty to animals but really are either of those topics actually divisive in nature? No. That isn't "Orange man bad" or "all males bad" crap. Pretty much everybody in the audience agrees with Rose regardless of gender or political party, she was just a frumpy looking dork, that's all, lol. BUT even having said that her acting and line delivery was solid throughout.



Nope, selective hearing at its finest. Filoni is a god who understands SW like no other...except when he doesn't. But we don't talk about that in these parts.

I also love how people complained for months on end how RJ brought in stupid "non-Star Warsey" elements like ships needing fuel. Never mind that all the way back in 1977 we got like half a dozen shots of ground crew detaching fuel hoses from X-Wings before they lifted off to attack the Death Star. Or Obi-Wan asking the little cartoon critters on Utapau to refuel his Jedi Starfighter in ROTS. Forget all that because RJ just doesn't understand SW, lol.

Didn’t they actually show resistance vehicles during the whole war profiteering scene.