Star Wars Saga (OT/PT/ST) Discussion Thread

[Khev]

Didn’t they actually show resistance vehicles during the whole war profiteering scene.

Yes so basically in a way DJ was saying that the spirit of Palpatine lives on in all the war profiteers. People using the armies of both sides for their own profit just like he did.

 

[jye4ever]

agp be like

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yes so basically in a way DJ was saying that the spirit of Palpatine lives on in all the war profiteers. People using the armies of both sides for their own profit just like he did.

Along those war-profiteering lines from those sequences...

Do you think the fact that Rose's setup about "It's a terrible place filled with the worst people in the galaxy" being a callback to the "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy" goes over people's heads? Or do they willfully choose to pretend it's literal "messaging" rather than an obvious use of ironic humor to contrast the patrons of the Mos Eisley cantina with the polished people at the Canto casino in the very next shot?

The broader issue is made obvious when Rose tells Finn to look closer, and then gives the context exposition dump about how the war machine enriches those people through spilled blood and stripping worlds like her own homeworld. But I've long wondered if people got the joke and choose to ignore it, or just mistakenly took everything literally.

 

[ironwez20]

Just for a moment.. Step back and look at ROTS for what it is.. A huge missed opportunity. I know you saw it at the perfect age and your love for it is tied to that.. But the film itself suffers from all the same issues as the previous two films.

You state that the sheer emotion is something to that makes the scene amazing..

I think without question the "Sheet emotion" is were we really differ. but here are some my issues with that Duel in general

Mind you this is coming from someone who loves TPM fight so its not PT hate.

1. The duel was a missed opportunity because there was no emotion. Some of this has to do with the fact that we know the outcome. Which is no fault of the scene. It is what it is.. But I have watched films many times where I know the outcome and still I am on the edge of my seat.. The Troy example is a good one.. Every damn time I watch that I hope Hector does not die and finds a way to win.. I find it amazing that an average film like Troy makes me care more about Eric Bana as Hector then a three film lead up of Anakin and Obi Wan. You never believe in their friendship and we are never allowed to care about them as a team. Sure if I bring in TCW I can trick myself into thinking there is more there then there is but nope.. its just not.

2. The acting. I know it gets harped on a lot.. But its hard to get pumped up when Hayden is yelling "you will not take her from me" and "my new empire" speech. A great duel should not have you squirming in you theater seat due to cringe.

3. The drama is ruined by the cuts to the cartoon fight of Yoda and the Emperor.. This is the duel we have been waiting for. Don't cut away to something as ridiculous and unneeded / unwanted as Yoda vs The Emperor. Cutting away can be done to good effect like in ESB but cut away to something that matters (the attempted rescue of Han or the escape of the hero's from Bespin) but ROTS just gives us the over the top cartoon of CGI Yoda vs (at times) CGI emperor. I mean am I not supposed to laugh when the emperor's feat are straight up in the air after yoda pushed the force back at him

4. Two much of an Average thing. Nothing about the saber duel really stands out. Seriously you can usually pick something about a saber duel in a SW film that makes it stand out.. And this film either has moments that you remember for the wrong reason (CGI back flip to start the fight, the unison light saber swirl, lava boats) or is trying just to hard to be fast and furious that its kind of a mess.

Not the best gif but we all know the movie.. But really.. What the hell

5. This goes with number 4. Now this is not really George's fault.. Or maybe it is.. and it is the lesser of my complaints but two Blue Sabers made the duel much harder to follow.. Give Obi wan a green one. That way the stunning chorography and work the two actors put in could be better appreciated and followed. Like the shot above.. It would have been maybe a bit more dramatic and easier to follow if it was a green vs Blue saber.. Yes I know Obi Wan has a blue saber in the OT but the way these guys go through sabers i am sure there could have been some excuse..

Also as the above gif also shows There are times where George has the camera a bit too close to the actors where its hard to tell which saber belongs to who..

This is a great move but I don't like the shot set up as it almost hides the complexity of the move. Not so much in this gif as it is sowed down a lot.

Remember how TPM Diel of the Fates was shot.. I mean there were three fighters and a duel saber but easy to follow and appreciate due to lighting, saber colors.. and Probably Rey Park having an understanding of how to choregraph a fight scene for the screen.

6. Then there is all the unneeded cable swinging and Lava dodging and lava boat riding... It at best is boring, it is at worst dumb looking.

7. I have the higher ground.. Really?? The duel we have been waiting for ends that way??

Granted I dont want to see obi wan cutting off pieces of Anakin and we end up with a Monty Python type fight (Ill bite your legs off) but it was just so anti-climatic. Plus Obi Wan already proved that having the higher ground meant nothing in TPM.. Maybe its just a blind spot for the Sith.


I just look at ESB and how the dialogue, setting, and how it is all beautifully shot puts ROTS duel to shame.

You don't need emotional music to trick you into how you should feel.

Return of the Jedi suffers from cuts to Endor and Ewok's.. That takes away from some of the drama also. But you still have the great dialogue to help carry the scene.

TPM is pure action and done in the best way possible..

I wont bring up the ST because I dont think you can get past your bias of those films and those films deserve some criticism for their dues for sure also.. TLJ throne room is only a small step above AOTC obi wan / anakin / Dooku duel


But they also deserve some more credit then some are willing to give in how they are beautifully show and yes carry some emotion.. Sorry.. I cared more about Kylo and him turning to the good side then I did about Anakin turning to the bad. But that is Lucas' fault not mine.




See above



Not to many. It has its fans.. So statements like this directed at Khev and Jye mean nothing.

And Im sorry you cant call a film trash while simultaneously defending any of the films in the PT.



You need to look at Khevs top 30 films of all time

And I have yet to find very many who dont put TPM and AOTC at the very bottom of the SW film rankings.. So.. I dont think that statement is correct.. At all.. People like ROTS because they are tricked into thinking Dark = good



I actually don't disagree with this.. But all the iconic scenes from the PT come from in TPM.. Only reason ROTS has any is because its what we all were waiting for..

The PT does have more unintentional laughs in it.. by like a mile.. The cringe is strong in that series.

There is a reason TLJ is so hated by many.. Its the most like the PT of the new films.

And I want you to take a huuuuuuuge step back and look at the ST? You honestly believe it was fine well? You think that?s good writing? See I know the OT has huge flaws and yes rots has bad pacing and moments but it still for some reason works . It still feels like a story told by someone who cares about what he?s putting out.

You want to talk about missed opportunity? Then look no further then the ST it?s mired with missed opportunity and horrible story and pacing and quite frankly if you accept that then you have no buissness basing rots either.

Like I said good or bad I remember scenes from rots but I don?t remember any from the ST it?s forgettable.

You may think the lightsaber fight sucks but I think the duals in st are just a bunch of idiots flailing baseball bats at each other. The music alone trumped anything the ST produced.

I can accept the PT flaws cause in my mind Star Wars was always silly, pt was just as silly as what came before. I saw nothing to different . I mean yea I understand why it fans hate it I do but that?s fine. I understand why fans hate the ST , what I don?t understand is how anyone can be satisfied with the terrible writing of the ST and in the same breath say the PT was garbage. I find that hilarious.

Both aren?t good but if I were to choose then it?s PT all day. For music, style and telling a sound story even if it wasn?t done well. Lol the nerve

Also please don?t talk about bad lines to me. The movies you love literally has ? they fly now? as a quote . The stupidest Star Wars quote I?ve ever heard.

 

[Khev]

Along those war-profiteering lines from those sequences...

Do you think the fact that Rose's setup about "It's a terrible place filled with the worst people in the galaxy" being a callback to the "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy" goes over people's heads? Or do they willfully choose to pretend it's literal "messaging" rather than an obvious use of ironic humor to contrast the patrons of the Mos Eisley cantina with the polished people at the Canto casino in the very next shot?

*crickets chirping*

Yep, lol.

The broader issue is made obvious when Rose tells Finn to look closer, and then gives the context exposition dump about how the war machine enriches those people through spilled blood and stripping worlds like her own homeworld. But I've long wondered if people got the joke and choose to ignore it, or just mistakenly took everything literally.

I think it's a combination of the two options you list above: They willfully chose to take it literally in order to cling to an easily debunked narrative.

 

[JAWS]

And I want you to take a huuuuuuuge step back and look at the ST? You honestly believe it was fine well? You think that?s good writing? See I know the OT has huge flaws and yes rots has bad pacing and moments but it still for some reason works . It still feels like a story told by someone who cares about what he?s putting out.

I have and always do.. I was a hater until I wasn't

You want to talk about missed opportunity? Then look no further then the ST it?s mired with missed opportunity and horrible story and pacing and quite frankly if you accept that then you have no buissness basing rots either.

But they are competently made from a directing and technical aspect. I should at least care about Obi wan and Anakin as much as I do Kylo.. but yet I dont.. Because the actor that played Kylo killed it.. The other two not so much.

But yeah. As a whole its obvious the ST was not well thought out and had no plan... At the same time its well acted and directed. I still dislike 75% of TLJ though.

But give me good acting, directing any day over whatever the PT had.

Like I said good or bad I remember scenes from rots but I don?t remember any from the ST it?s forgettable.

For you it is.. For me it was till the last film.. But you know I like that one and I know you don't but I find the saber duel endlessly more interesting because of the story revolving around Kylo, the look of it, and fact that its the one time you see Kylo in full control and how powerful he really is.

I get it that you just cant get into it.. I understand. I understand because its how I felt after the first two films.. But the third film I found to be fun and have the spirit of the OT.. It just has that clunky first act to get past.

You may think the lightsaber fight sucks but I think the duals in st are just a bunch of idiots flailing baseball bats at each other. The music alone trumped anything the ST produced.

They look more like the OT which i prefer. Well TFA and TROS do.. I really dont like the Throne room fight. They are visually more interesting and as I said I found the one in TROS to be more interesting story wise also.

But if you just cant get into the story and cant forgive it.. I get it.. Its my issue with the PT... Its just too goofy and poorly made for my taste.

I can accept the PT flaws cause in my mind Star Wars was always silly, pt was just as silly as what came before. I saw nothing to different .

Don't know what to say to this.. I mean.. Yeah Jedi is a bit more PT like. But ANH and ESB are just so much better made films then any of the PT.

I mean yea I understand why it fans hate it I do but that?s fine. I understand why fans hate the ST , what I don?t understand is how anyone can be satisfied with the terrible writing of the ST and in the same breath say the PT was garbage. I find that hilarious.

Same reason I don?t understand how anyone can be satisfied with all the bad acting, goofy shots, poor directing, average story, and awful dialogue of the PT and yet in the same breath say that the ST was garbage.. I find that hilarious

Both aren?t good but if I were to choose then it?s PT all day. For music, style and telling a sound story even if it wasn?t done well. Lol the nerve

Well there you go we are back to picking your poison.. You prefer the music, style and poorly done story... While I prefer the acting, look, directing and characters of the ST..

Also please don?t talk about bad lines to me. The movies you love literally has ? they fly now? as a quote . The stupidest Star Wars quote I?ve ever heard.

Sorry you can hate on that as much as you want bit the PT dialogue wins hands down.. if you want me to write the bad quotes and the poor delivery we would be here all night.. Dude come on.


In context They Fly Now isnt even that bad.. I hated it when they gave the sneak peak but watching the film itself.. not really a thing.

And at least they delivered it believably


Like I said.. Pick you poison..

 

[JAWS]

The PT is simultaneously in my Top 30 and Bottom 30 films of all time.

When I need a break from OT/ST and get an itch for the zany time that was the PT I always go back to them. Then when I actually watch them I both get sucked in to that era and disgusted by the execution while amazed at many of the cool designs, lol.

I'm basically Gollum when it comes to those films.

"Nope, not canon. Not canon."

"You're a liar, and you love them."

"Go away."

"Preeeequel faaaaaan."

 

[JAWS]

I watched TLJ again recently and am continually surprised that for the SW film with the longest run time it is actually one of the easiest to watch in one sitting. The pacing is absolutely perfect. For whatever criticisms that are leveled against it you can't say it is ever boring. Arguably every other SW film (OT included) has either moments where your mind might be tempted to wander or you just get outright bored. Not so with TLJ.

Sure you can say that this part or that part is stupid or annoying (mama joke, saber toss, milk drink, Canto Bight, etc.) but all those parts actually go quite fast (yes even the entirety of Canto Bight is what, 10-12 minutes of run time, and not even all at once) *and* they're either beautifully shot, very well acted, or both.

And like the Hector fight I can't help but wince every time Kylo Ren shoots those torpedoes into the rebels' main hangar and blows up Tallie and all the other pilots and not wish that they somehow avoid the blast. The editing, music, and tension of all the scenes that culminate during the Holdo maneuver (Rey and Kylo reaching for the saber, Finn and Rose's execution, the exploding transports, lightspeed kamikaze) is endlessly exciting and rewatchable. Kylo turning the blade on Snoke and then it flying to Rey's outstretched hand is still one of my favorite moments in all of SW. I know that the ST derangement against the perceived SJW agenda of this film and resentment against a number of RJ's dumb tweets is so strong that many will never admit it but there is *a lot* to like and even love about this film.

And that's not even addressing Mark Hamill's stellar performance as Luke freaking Skywalker.

I just cant get past most of the film.. I love Luke, Kylo and now, Rey.. I love that snoke death and Rey catching the saber.. I pretty much hate the rest of the film. I did a ranking of all the SW characters and all of my least fav SW characters come from that film.

Its well made but the story as I have always said goes nowhere. But I guess thats a good thing cause JJ could just continue like it never happened

 

[jye4ever]

I put Rey’s theme up there with the best SW music.

 

[JAWS]

I put Rey’s theme up there with the best SW music.

Agreed. Its a great theme.

 

[ironwez20]

I have and always do.. I was a hater until I wasn't



But they are competently made from a directing and technical aspect. I should at least care about Obi wan and Anakin as much as I do Kylo.. but yet I dont.. Because the actor that played Kylo killed it.. The other two not so much.

But yeah. As a whole its obvious the ST was not well thought out and had no plan... At the same time its well acted and directed. I still dislike 75% of TLJ though.

But give me good acting, directing any day over whatever the PT had.



For you it is.. For me it was till the last film.. But you know I like that one and I know you don't but I find the saber duel endlessly more interesting because of the story revolving around Kylo, the look of it, and fact that its the one time you see Kylo in full control and how powerful he really is.

I get it that you just cant get into it.. I understand. I understand because its how I felt after the first two films.. But the third film I found to be fun and have the spirit of the OT.. It just has that clunky first act to get past.



They look more like the OT which i prefer. Well TFA and TROS do.. I really dont like the Throne room fight. They are visually more interesting and as I said I found the one in TROS to be more interesting story wise also.

But if you just cant get into the story and cant forgive it.. I get it.. Its my issue with the PT... Its just too goofy and poorly made for my taste.


Don't know what to say to this.. I mean.. Yeah Jedi is a bit more PT like. But ANH and ESB are just so much better made films then any of the PT.



Same reason I don?t understand how anyone can be satisfied with all the bad acting, goofy shots, poor directing, average story, and awful dialogue of the PT and yet in the same breath say that the ST was garbage.. I find that hilarious



Well there you go we are back to picking your poison.. You prefer the music, style and poorly done story... While I prefer the acting, look, directing and characters of the ST..



Sorry you can hate on that as much as you want bit the PT dialogue wins hands down.. if you want me to write the bad quotes and the poor delivery we would be here all night.. Dude come on.


In context They Fly Now isnt even that bad.. I hated it when they gave the sneak peak but watching the film itself.. not really a thing.

And at least they delivered it believably


Like I said.. Pick you poison..

Lol those bad delivers are still good in a certain point of view. I mean I get that the PT isn?t your fav but come on they fly now is absolutely stupid? They never seen jet packs ? C3po literally saw boba fett fly around the damn sarlac Pitt .

But I get it. You just can?t seem to share your hatred for PT and I get it it doesn?t live up to your standards. But I will never get how you will excuse the ST bad writing and horrible use of characters. For as many stupid and silly moments the Pt has the ST has plenty .

It definitely is a pick your poison scenario but the bashing is hilarious to me. You say PT had stupid moments but then accept a flying leia in space . Ok.

Yea ROTS is dumb I can write a list on the stupidity of some scenes but you could write a novel on the stupidity of tros . But I feel like you OT fans accept TROS cause it?s all you have and you feel as tho you must accept it or you?ll be unsatisfied for the rest of your life how the story went. Guarantee if Disney said they will rey in ST and start fresh with new characters and stories all three fans here would drop it without a second thought and await to see what comes.

If Disney said they were going to redo the PT there would be backlash cause it actually is beloved lol. Crazy how iit was hated

Also nobody in the OT fought like the idiots in the ST. Kylo ren is the only one with grace when he fights .

 

[DiFabio]

The autism is strong in here.

 

[jye4ever]

 

[ironwez20]

The autism is strong in here.

Well I mean now that your here yea it?s over 9000

 

[JAWS]

Lol those bad delivers are still good in a certain point of view. I mean I get that the PT isn?t your fav but come on they fly now is absolutely stupid? They never seen jet packs ? C3po literally saw boba fett fly around the damn sarlac Pitt .

Well the referral was to the Troopers and not the jet packs. I don't know.. I just dont think its that bad.

But I get it. You just can?t seem to share your hatred for PT and I get it it doesn?t live up to your standards. But I will never get how you will excuse the ST bad writing and horrible use of characters. For as many stupid and silly moments the Pt has the ST has plenty .

You seem to forget that TPM is my fav of the PT and it might be the king of Stupid moments.. So I can excuse bad writing of either trilogy

It definitely is a pick your poison scenario but the bashing is hilarious to me. You say PT had stupid moments but then accept a flying leia in space . Ok.

Remember I still dont like TLJ. Its a bottom feeder in my SW rankings.. Right there with AOTC. Flying Leia is not forgiven and is one of the worst things in the entire saga.. Only thing worst are some of the changes to the OT

Yea ROTS is dumb I can write a list on the stupidity of some scenes but you could write a novel on the stupidity of tros . But I feel like you OT fans accept TROS cause it?s all you have and you feel as tho you must accept it or you?ll be unsatisfied for the rest of your life how the story went.

See I cant tell if you are joking or serious here.. First off if we were holding onto it because thats all we have then we would have been PT fans years ago... As we never thought we would get ST films.. We really thought the PT was all that we would have. With the ST we knew we would get more SW stories.

We were able to ignore the PT for years. So the ST not being satisfying would have been even easier to ignore.

Remember I didnt like the first two films.. I was ready to write off the PT and ST.

TROS was just classic SW fun. It's got dumb moments but no more then what can be found in any individual PT film... But its acted and directed better and I happen to like the characters more and it has one of if not the best moment in all of SW for me.. And that was the Han Solo vision. Adam Driver owned this series and for his character alone I can find enjoyment out of it.

And like I said.. It actually helped me accept the PT as canon.

I find enjoyment out of the PT. I genuinely like TPM and find the first half of ROTS enjoyable. I actually go out of my way to watch videos of why people like the PT and have posted those here in defense of the PT. There is stuff to like but I struggle with how they were made. Simple as that.

Guarantee if Disney said they will rey in ST and start fresh with new characters and stories all three fans here would drop it without a second thought and await to see what comes.

First off.. You do a lot of mind reading

2nd.. If they redid the ST I would judge it on its own merits and if its good then I would have two ST to choose from.. I think it would be dumb to redo it as there are great moments and ideas in the ST... Plus you are not going to get the OT cast back so It just would be a completely different kind of ST.


Ultimately ironwez20 I am just pointing out that everything you say can be directed right back at you. its not like either series PT or ST are perfect films. They both have huge flaws and its just what kind of flaws you are willing to live with.

If Disney said they were going to redo the PT there would be backlash cause it actually is beloved lol. Crazy how iit was hated

Also nobody in the OT fought like the idiots in the ST. Kylo ren is the only one with grace when he fights

Oh I dont know... If the PT was done as a straight up remake but with competent writers and directors fans might be Ok with that. OG fans would at leat

I like TROS lightsaber duel much more then the ROTS lightsaber duels

You just got too much hate for the ST and it blinds you.. You cant understand how anyone could possibly like it and then in turn have issues with the PT. Trust me when I say the ST fans feel the same way about you PT fans

Thats why its best to just understand if you are complaining about one that the other still stinks also

Have a happy Thanksgiving my friend

The autism is strong in here.

 

[jye4ever]

Well I mean now that your here yea it?s over 9000

Sheesh why so mean to master D what did he ever do to you lol

 

[DiFabio]

Well I mean now that your here yea it?s over 9000

You’ll never be a female hedgehog, ******.

 

[ironwez20]

How did u figure out who I was! Lol

 

[ironwez20]

Well the referral was to the Troopers and not the jet packs. I don't know.. I just dont think its that bad.



You seem to forget that TPM is my fav of the PT and it might be the king of Stupid moments.. So I can excuse bad writing of either trilogy




Remember I still dont like TLJ. Its a bottom feeder in my SW rankings.. Right there with AOTC. Flying Leia is not forgiven and is one of the worst things in the entire saga.. Only thing worst are some of the changes to the OT



See I cant tell if you are joking or serious here.. First off if we were holding onto it because thats all we have then we would have been PT fans years ago... As we never thought we would get ST films.. We really thought the PT was all that we would have. With the ST we knew we would get more SW stories.

We were able to ignore the PT for years. So the ST not being satisfying would have been even easier to ignore.

Remember I didnt like the first two films.. I was ready to write off the PT and ST.

TROS was just classic SW fun. It's got dumb moments but no more then what can be found in any individual PT film... But its acted and directed better and I happen to like the characters more and it has one of if not the best moment in all of SW for me.. And that was the Han Solo vision. Adam Driver owned this series and for his character alone I can find enjoyment out of it.

And like I said.. It actually helped me accept the PT as canon.

I find enjoyment out of the PT. I genuinely like TPM and find the first half of ROTS enjoyable. I actually go out of my way to watch videos of why people like the PT and have posted those here in defense of the PT. There is stuff to like but I struggle with how they were made. Simple as that.



First off.. You do a lot of mind reading

2nd.. If they redid the ST I would judge it on its own merits and if its good then I would have two ST to choose from.. I think it would be dumb to redo it as there are great moments and ideas in the ST... Plus you are not going to get the OT cast back so It just would be a completely different kind of ST.


Ultimately ironwez20 I am just pointing out that everything you say can be directed right back at you. its not like either series PT or ST are perfect films. They both have huge flaws and its just what kind of flaws you are willing to live with.




Oh I dont know... If the PT was done as a straight up remake but with competent writers and directors fans might be Ok with that. OG fans would at leat

I like TROS lightsaber duel much more then the ROTS lightsaber duels

You just got too much hate for the ST and it blinds you.. You cant understand how anyone could possibly like it and then in turn have issues with the PT. Trust me when I say the ST fans feel the same way about you PT fans

Thats why its best to just understand if you are complaining about one that the other still stinks also

Have a happy Thanksgiving my friend

Sigh we are just gonna have to agree to disagree buddy. I?m to tired to read all that lol. And bummed Covid messed up thanksgiving this year lol

 

[ArtDamage]

For all the faults of the PT, at least George didn't bring back all the major cast only to squander them in separate scenes and kill them off.

Not to say that he might not of in his version of a sequel trilogy, but yikes JJ and Johnson.