Star Wars Saga (OT/PT/ST) Discussion Thread

[a-dev]

Look at my 4k ultra HD smile

Couldn't pull a screengrab of the scene myself so googled 'Lucius Fox very good mr lau', that's what I got

 

[The Buffinator]

The problem with Jedi is it can range from being cool, to dumb and stupid. Their abilities can range from jumping many stories, running 10x the speed of a normal person, alter the minds of those around them at will, convert themselves to a walking ghost, healing injuries and shooting lightning that could cover a continent.

When its grounded and they feel more like Knights with some cool powers, its can be fun and powerful. When it is played up it gets campy or downright silly. Which is fine, but it can get a little awkward to give them a proper villain, which is why the ST was stuck in a loop of having to have a Sith Mastermind, because they are the only real threat for a Jedi.

The Last Jedi in a way is an a subtle (not subtle) criticism of star wars, and why having Jedi creates Sith, and its an endless battle of stupid cartoon characters with magic. The regular people in the movies end up with nothing to do, which is why ROTJ has some really really terrible parts.

The OT has a charm and magic, it never should have led to all this other crap. We all know in 10 years we are going to get a sequel trilogy to LOTR, and Sauron will be back, and people will be so excited.

So what you're saying is when people criticize the ST we should just blame the PT. Got it!

 

[hellgrammite00]

So what you're saying is when people criticize the ST we should just blame the PT. Got it!

The PT have to be watched like a kids cartoon, which is exactly what your posted a few minutes ago and how I feel as well. The problem is there is cringe romantic scenes, and baffling attention to payed to trade disputes and congressional panels which are out of place in what are children's movies.

The ST exists so grown men can buy Mud troopers and dress up as Porgs for halloween.

 

[ZE_501]

You haven't beaten me. You have sacrificed sure footing for a killing stroke!

Not by a long shot. A3 characters (well character) had continuity. Ripley was still Ripley doing Ripley tings. She totally Ripley'd the entire time.

One can even argue that the 'Alien' narrative has always been bleak and nasty, so even that works.

 

[The Buffinator]

The PT have to be watched like a kids cartoon, which is exactly what your posted a few minutes ago and how I feel as well. The problem is there is cringe romantic scenes, and baffling attention to payed to trade disputes and congressional panels which are out of place in what are children's movies.

The ST exists so grown men can buy Mud troopers and dress up as Porgs for halloween.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[ironwez20]

Watching clips from the ST last night and man what a mess. That snoke temple scene is awful

 

[hellgrammite00]

Watching clips from the ST last night and man what a mess. That snoke temple scene is awful

It is kind of sad. I can rewatch the PT, and while not good movies, I am still entertained. There is a creativity there that can't be denied. It just was executed poorly.

ST I can't sit through. When I was younger I knew the PT was bad, but was still intrigued by them. The ST is just muddled and ultra corporate at times. It doesn't respect its own lore.

It is sad at the end of the day. So much potential, and we couldn't even get something creative at least.

 

[Khev]

No one has that source for the Lucas conversation from the 80s that pretty much proves Yoda, as originally conceived, was not a lightsaber-wielding squirrel ninja?

Here you go, from "The Making of Return of the Jedi" hardcover:

Lucas: Anakin Skywalker starting hanging out with the Emperor, who at this point nobody knew was that bad, because he was an elected official.

Kasdan: Was he a Jedi?

Lucas: No, he was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and became an imperial guy and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy. He sucked Luke's father into the dark side.

Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?

Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.

Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?

Lucas: It's just the Jedi who take the time to do it.

Marquand: They use it as a technique.

Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn't go out and fight anybody.

Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn't he?

Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?

Kasdan: I understand what you're saying, but I can't believe it; I am in shock.

Lucas: It's true, absolutely true, not that it makes any difference to the story.

Kasdan: You mean he wouldn't be any good in a fight?

Lucas: Not with Darth Vader he wouldn't.

Kasdan: I accept it, but I don't like it.

(Looks like Kasdan gave a version of his own words to young Lando in Solo, lol.)

 

[Khev]

You haven't beaten me. You have sacrificed sure footing for a killing stroke!

Wrong choice my friend...Khev be like:

 

[hellgrammite00]

Lucas went a bit crazy, and in some ways expanded the lore, and also made it really dumb.
Yoda using a lightsaber and going full bouncy squirrell I can kind of see. I mean at least he would have done some training as a Jedi in his college days.

Palpatine using a lightsaber is just silly stuff.

He isnt' a Jedi. The lightsaber is a Jedi weapon. The reason that Vader had one was because he was a fallen Jedi. Emperor even teases Luke a bit in ROTJ about it.

Palpatine was smart in the sense that he recruited Sith often from fallen Jedi. Why train them in Sith magic from scratch when you can corrupt a Jedi Warrior.

Then suddenly in Star Wars every Sith also had to be trained in the Jedi arts. The hole point of Sith should be they use the force in twisted and nasty ways. Force Lightning, force choking and dismemberment, mind torture...ect. Lightsabers are not related to the force, they are a Jedi religious device they happened to create and use in their training.

 

[hellgrammite00]

Kasdan: You mean he wouldn't be any good in a fight?

Lucas: Not with Darth Vader he wouldn't.

Kasdan: I accept it, but I don't like it.

(Looks like Kasdan gave a version of his own words to young Lando in Solo, lol.)

I think the problem is Yoda should have been a counter to Palps. A wise and powerful force user that doesn't get into physical fights, he manipulates/teaches others and if push comes to shove uses force powers beyond imagination.

But Yoda in the prequels became hoppy saber dude. And then Lucas was like if Yoda is a bouncy monkey with a sword, then surely PALPATINE WOULD BE TOO!!! The problem is when you are the lore master, and you start changing things, you start confirming your own madness.

In the Clone Wars behind the scences, it is interesting Lucas talking about getting the audience to believe all the jumping Yoda is going to do. He was like we have to sell the audience....

And then is when somebody needed to put on the straight jacket for old grey beard.

 

[Khev]

He isnt' a Jedi. The lightsaber is a Jedi weapon. The reason that Vader had one was because he was a fallen Jedi. Emperor even teases Luke a bit in ROTJ about it.

Yep, I never liked that George then went and made the lightsaber the universal weapon for all Jedi and Sith (and even Mandalorians, lol.) Oh and Grievous too.

Also agree about the lameness of making so many Sith just Jedi who turned to the Dark Side.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yep, I never liked that George then went and made the lightsaber the universal weapon for all Jedi and Sith (and even Mandalorians, lol.) Oh and Grievous too.

Also agree about the lameness of making so many Sith just Jedi who turned to the Dark Side.

I have no problem with a Sith apprentice using a lightsaber. The idea of Samurai-inspired laser swords would lose some of the charm for me if you're not going to have actual duels with them between the good guys and bad guys in SW. I think swordplay taken to the next level is a cool concept (more than just visually) for this sci-fi fantasy world.

For me, the problem with Yoda using one goes beyond just Yoda. In order for his lessons in ESB to maintain logical consistency, a Jedi Master shouldn't need a lightsaber - both from a practical standpoint as well as a philosophical one.

Practically speaking, the whole point of "mastering" the Force should render the lightsaber obsolete. And philosophically, ascending to Master under the Jedi precepts that Yoda laid out in ESB should make the saber undesirable. It'd be like graduating beyond the need for them on two levels.

In ANH, Obi-Wan even describes lightsabers as "the weapon of a Jedi Knight" - specifying it beyond the more broad implication of just saying weapon of the Jedi. Whether that was intentional or not in the script, it makes complete sense. And that's the way it stayed all the way through Phantom Menace. The only Jedi on screen using lightsabers were the Knights. Then Geonosis happened in AOTC. From that point on, I think audience understanding of Jedi has changed irreparably.

 

[Khev]

I have no problem with a Sith apprentice using a lightsaber. The idea of Samurai-inspired laser swords would lose some of the charm for me if you're not going to have actual duels with them between the good guys and bad guys in SW. I think swordplay taken to the next level is a cool concept (more than just visually) for this sci-fi fantasy world.

RJ's Praetorian Guards were what I pictured for the Sith before TPM came along. They had their own martial arts weapons distinct from the Jedi.

For me, the problem with Yoda using one goes beyond just Yoda. In order for his lessons in ESB to maintain logical consistency, a Jedi Master shouldn't need a lightsaber - both from a practical standpoint as well as a philosophical one.

Practically speaking, the whole point of "mastering" the Force should render the lightsaber obsolete. And philosophically, ascending to Master under the Jedi precepts that Yoda laid out in ESB should make the saber undesirable. It'd be like graduating beyond the need for them on two levels.

Yep.

"Are you telling me that I'll be able to use a lightsaber to deflect blasters?"

"No, I'm telling you that when you're ready you won't have to...."

Hell Vader even demonstrated this himself in the Cloud City dining hall!

 

[hellgrammite00]

I have no problem with a Sith apprentice using a lightsaber. The idea of Samurai-inspired laser swords would lose some of the charm for me if you're not going to have actual duels with them between the good guys and bad guys in SW. I think swordplay taken to the next level is a cool concept (more than just visually) for this sci-fi fantasy world.

I mean that is why the OT is good.

PT kind of messed things up, and ST is an creative mess. When in doubt, more light sabers or more Palpatine.

It is why the Mandalorian is good. Beskar is retconned a bit to be lazer proof, so it can deflect a light saber. That leads to interesting sword play. I am like okay, I could see why the Mandalorians would give Jedi some headaches if they can at least deflect saber hits. Its interesting, it is fun.

Ren should not be a lightsaber master because she is force sensitive in TFA. They missed the point. A light-saber should take a decent amount of training, since the goal is to teach you to focus your power. The force does not grant you mastery of the light saber. As you note, mastery of the force means you should need to use the saber less.

 

[hellgrammite00]

"Are you telling me that I'll be able to use a lightsaber to deflect blasters?"

"No, I'm telling you that when you're ready you won't have to...."

Hell Vader even demonstrated this himself in the Cloud City dining hall!

Isn't Vader using Mandalorian Beskar crush gauntlets or something? That is why he could deflect it??

 

[ajp4mgs]

RJ's Praetorian Guards were what I pictured for the Sith before TPM came along. They had their own martial arts weapons distinct from the Jedi.

Okay, that works.

Yep.

"Are you telling me that I'll be able to use a lightsaber to deflect blasters?"

"No, I'm telling you that when you're ready you won't have to...."

Hell Vader even demonstrated this himself in the Cloud City dining hall!

Even TFA Kylo was stopping a blaster bolt in midair with the Force, and he was a relative novice. And he even continued doing other things until finally releasing the bolt when it was time to leave.

Yoda lifting the X-wing, in my mind anyway, was saying (to both Luke and the audience) that mastering the Force means you move beyond the types of limitations that would make a lightsaber necessary. And for a Jedi Master, the lightsaber is a tool that makes no sense ideologically.

 

[jye4ever]

Didn’t Qui-Gon become one with a lightsaber just not his lol

 

[hellgrammite00]

Didn’t Qui-Gon become one with a lightsaber just not his lol

easy there buddy, no sexy talk in here.

 

[The Buffinator]

Didn?t Qui-Gon become one with a lightsaber just not his lol

easy there buddy, no sexy talk in here.

So I guess Mando can't become one with his beskar staff either.