Star Wars Saga (OT/PT/ST) Discussion Thread

[ZE_501]

Pinky Tusacadero?

I know who she is but dont get it

Jumping the shark.

 

[JAWS]

Jumping the shark.

ohhhhhhhhh

 

[ZE_501]

ohhhhhhhhh

I guess technically it Jumped the Sith.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Pinky Tusacadero?

Now that's a name I have not heard in a long time.... a long time.

 

[xipotec]

OMG, there was a Clone Wars show?

OMG, grass is green?

Give me some credit here xiptec

LOL .....ok ok.

But I do deal with the public day in and day out so my expectations are pretty low.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Prime Clone]

Both trilogies put my heroes through the ringer, and re-contextualized things that I object to, but neither was made to give me the finger. They were telling a story of failure and ultimate redemption. The older I get, the more I understand how that message is valuable to convey in art. The ends justify the means. And it's Star Wars.

Well said.

I too have learnt you don't have to like or agree with something to appreciate it. In fact, the best art is probably that which challenges our expectations (so long as it's done convincingly).

Remember, the PT (and ST for that matter) weren't made for you or I. Current and future generations will watch the saga in episodic order, so there won't be the recontextualizing the OT generation has experienced.

 

[Khev]

The instructive irony here is that you are a bigger fan of TROS than I will ever be, yet I accept that film more than you do. I hate that it undid everything about Anakin's destiny and ultimate achievement that George spent ten years building in the PT. I hate how it used Rey in such a way that she ended up accomplishing something that Anakin and Luke failed to do. And more importantly for me, I hate when any professional writer relies on so many ****ing plot conveniences and contrivances rather than make the effort to lay the groundwork for earned plot progression.

Yet every day that goes by, I get closer and closer to embracing that film (and the entire trilogy as a result). That's because if I didn't embrace it as canon, but *do* accept the PT as canon, I'd be a hypocrite.

When I grew up with the OT, Yoda was (and is) my favorite character. He wasn't on Dagobah just hiding and refusing to fight the Empire; he was there because he was *not* a warrior. He was a Jedi guru, training Jedi about the perils of violence and how the Force allows you to circumvent the need for weapons and destruction.

Likewise, Obi-Wan Kenobi was an old hermit who had been betrayed by Anakin Skywalker. Kenobi didn't come across as a failure, nor a coward. He was someone who had gotten "too old" to effectively overturn what had happened to his former pupil, and needed Luke to fulfill the new hope.

Then came the PT. My favorite characters got completely crapped on. Yoda was actually now a warrior who took up the sword and went toe to toe with a Sith like Palpatine. Wait, what!? Why the **** did he exile himself for 20 years like a loser if he was that powerful and willing to *take the fight* to Palpatine before hiding?

And Kenobi was no longer just an honorable Jedi veteran who had simply been betrayed by a friend. He became a failure (and a serial liar). Fans of the PT go gaga over a Filoni speech that frames Obi-Wan as inadequate to properly train Anakin. The turn to Darth Vader was because Kenobi failed as a master. WTF!?

And I won't even get into my feelings on PT Anakin's irreconcilable dissonance with OT Vader's persona. Nor will I get into the cinematic execution failures of the PT. The point is that I *embrace* those prequel movies as canon. They weren't what I wanted, and they turned my heroes into losers and liars, but they had a purpose in telling a story of failure and redemption. I can accept it because it ends with an ultimate triumph. There's a purpose to the "ruining" of my heroes in telling a generational story of lessons learned from failure.

I've read enough about JJ and Rian to know that they were both huge fans of SW. They may have had competing visions for what they think a SW movie should say about the conflict within (and I align much more with Rian on that), but they both tried to honor what they were fans of. They made a good-faith effort to follow up the happily-ever-after ROTJ ending by bringing meaning and purpose to what was nothing but a money-driven, commercial ambition in the first place.

I accept the entire ST, while only really embracing one of its films, because I accept the PT (without embracing *any* of its films). Both trilogies put my heroes through the ringer, and re-contextualized things that I object to, but neither was made to give me the finger. They were telling a story of failure and ultimate redemption. The older I get, the more I understand how that message is valuable to convey in art. The ends justify the means. And it's Star Wars.

Good post..

Both PT and ST took fav characters into directions I had no desire to see them go in. Yoda being one of the worst offenders to me.

I have come to accept it all good and bad.

I am a happier SW fan for it.

Well said.

I too have learnt you don't have to like or agree with something to appreciate it. In fact, the best art is probably that which challenges our expectations (so long as it's done convincingly).

I agree with all of the above. I've never taken pleasure in rejecting any given SW film. I am so glad that the ST and Mando have helped me to finally just accept not just the PT but now at long last the SE's as well.

I pity those who do nothing but look for excuses to feed and even inflate their own disgust of the ST, even if I do understand it (since I was there too with regard to the PT.) I'm so glad that's not me anymore. I'm not saying that all people who were disappointed with the ST seek out a false narrative to bolster and justify their own knee-jerk reactions but there are definitely those who've been doing that since the release of TLJ and continue to this day.

But to each their own. Personally I love that I simply get to love SW again. All of it (for the most part), warts and all.

 

[Khev]

Thanks Bravomite.

The key difference between the PT and ST for me is this

PT - desirable story - badly told but worth considering on its merits however few they may be
ST - undesirable story - could be well told or not - who cares when it's such an undesirable story

Again, this is all easy to say with hindsight. I was as excited as anyone when they announced the ST.
Second caveat - what is desirable is subjective. My posts will not convince anyone who wanted to see the OT heroes broken down and demolished in their senior years for whatever drama could be eked out of that. To each his own I suppose.

It's not about "wanting" to have seen the OT heroes broken down and demolished. It's about being damn impressed that they had the balls to do that *and* while showcasing them in beautiful, extremely well-acted films. And I say this to you specifically a-dev because I believe that your feeling of the ST is exactly how you and I both felt about Alien 3 for so long. Why oh why did they not fulfill any degree of the promise of Ripley, Hicks, and Newt's well earned victory?

Nobody wanted that for the characters. They didn't get *any* peace after surviving ALIENS, let alone decades of happiness before it all went to pot like the SW OT heroes. But we both have grown to love A3 in spite of what it did to the characters and the direction the story went, hell dare I say that we both might even respect it all the more for *not* simply giving us "ALIENS 2" with Ripley and Hicks kicking *** just like they did before. I started to feel the resentment for SW going in a similar direction as well but TROS brought me back and the ST all around won me over much quicker than Alien 3 did. I can't help but wonder if you may one day revisit these films, particularly the much maligned TLJ which is just so beautifully shot and poignantly acted, and come to respect and even admire these as well.

I'm not betting money on it or anything but I can't help but wonder, if only because of Alien 3 which *was* an "undesirable story" but expertly told.

 

[a-dev]

It's not about "wanting" to have seen the OT heroes broken down and demolished. It's about being damn impressed that they had the balls to do that *and* while showcasing them in beautiful, extremely well-acted films. And I say this to you specifically a-dev because I believe that your feeling of the ST is exactly how you and I both felt about Alien 3 for so long. Why oh why did they not fulfill any degree of the promise of Ripley, Hicks, and Newt's well earned victory?

Nobody wanted that for the characters. They didn't get *any* peace after surviving ALIENS, let alone decades of happiness before it all went to pot like the SW OT heroes. But we both have grown to love A3 in spite of what it did to the characters and the direction the story went, hell dare I say that we both might even respect it all the more for *not* simply giving us "ALIENS 2" with Ripley and Hicks kicking *** just like they did before. I started to feel the resentment for SW going in a similar direction as well but TROS brought me back and the ST all around won me over much quicker than Alien 3 did. I can't help but wonder if you may one day revisit these films, particularly the much maligned TLJ which is just so beautifully shot and poignantly acted, and come to respect and even admire these as well.

I'm not betting money on it or anything but I can't help but wonder, if only because of Alien 3 which *was* an "undesirable story" but expertly told.

That's a damn fair point with the Alien 3 comparison. And the existence of fans of the ST who never would have asked for the story they got does kind of unravel the neat bow I was trying to put on the argument with that post of mine you and Xipotec quoted.

I suppose what is required is, well - a desire - to find a way (to find a way ) to like something that you initially found undesirable. What a sentence. I had that with Alien 3 for whatever reason while I currently don't for the ST.

 

[TheDucky]

Maybe I am not sure which Hallway scene you are talking about.. Which part and what exactly is the issue.

The opening scene, boarding Tantive IV.

Good post..

Both PT and ST took fav characters into directions I had no desire to see them go in. Yoda being one of the worst offenders to me.

I have come to accept it all good and bad.

I am a happier SW fan for it.

Yoda is dope as hell in the PT. I like bad-*** Yoda more than hermit Yoda.

Uses the force like a beast to fight like that.

Y’all thought freakin Yoda wouldn’t be a master with a saber?

 

[aussiebottt]

I agree. Seeing Yoda in full-flight during the PT was awesome.

 

[a-dev]

The opening scene, boarding Tantive IV.



Yoda is dope as hell in the PT. I like bad-*** Yoda more than hermit Yoda.

Uses the force like a beast to fight like that.

Y’all thought freakin Yoda wouldn’t be a master with a saber?

Yeah. And with good reason. Someone post those Lucas conversation transcripts about Yoda from back in the day.

 

[jye4ever]

It's not about "wanting" to have seen the OT heroes broken down and demolished. It's about being damn impressed that they had the balls to do that *and* while showcasing them in beautiful, extremely well-acted films. And I say this to you specifically a-dev because I believe that your feeling of the ST is exactly how you and I both felt about Alien 3 for so long. Why oh why did they not fulfill any degree of the promise of Ripley, Hicks, and Newt's well earned victory?

Nobody wanted that for the characters. They didn't get *any* peace after surviving ALIENS, let alone decades of happiness before it all went to pot like the SW OT heroes. But we both have grown to love A3 in spite of what it did to the characters and the direction the story went, hell dare I say that we both might even respect it all the more for *not* simply giving us "ALIENS 2" with Ripley and Hicks kicking *** just like they did before. I started to feel the resentment for SW going in a similar direction as well but TROS brought me back and the ST all around won me over much quicker than Alien 3 did. I can't help but wonder if you may one day revisit these films, particularly the much maligned TLJ which is just so beautifully shot and poignantly acted, and come to respect and even admire these as well.

I'm not betting money on it or anything but I can't help but wonder, if only because of Alien 3 which *was* an "undesirable story" but expertly told.

That's a damn fair point with the Alien 3 comparison. And the existence of fans of the ST who never would have asked for the story they got does kind of unravel the neat bow I was trying to put on the argument with that post of mine you and Xipotec quoted.

I suppose what is required is, well - a desire - to find a way (to find a way ) to like something that you initially found undesirable. What a sentence. I had that with Alien 3 for whatever reason while I currently don't for the ST.

Why did it take this long for someone anyone to throw A3 into a-dev's ST hating path.

a-dev your ST hating days are done Khev has the high ground.

Master a-dev you have fought gallantly. Worthy of recognition in the archives of the Doomcockers Order. Now... it is finished. Surrender, and your reputation will be spared.

Yes unfortunately you should have stuck to only loving Predator 2 lol

 

[Khev]

Master a-dev you have fought gallantly. Worthy of recognition in the archives of the Doomcockers Order. Now... it is finished. Surrender, and your reputation will be spared.

a-dev, join us old friend. (Or it may be hard to secure your release.)

And lol at "finding a way."

 

[a-dev]

You haven't beaten me. You have sacrificed sure footing for a killing stroke!

 

[jye4ever]

It's not about "wanting" to have seen the OT heroes broken down and demolished. It's about being damn impressed that they had the balls to do that *and* while showcasing them in beautiful, extremely well-acted films. And I say this to you specifically a-dev because I believe that your feeling of the ST is exactly how you and I both felt about Alien 3 for so long. Why oh why did they not fulfill any degree of the promise of Ripley, Hicks, and Newt's well earned victory?

Nobody wanted that for the characters. They didn't get *any* peace after surviving ALIENS, let alone decades of happiness before it all went to pot like the SW OT heroes. But we both have grown to love A3 in spite of what it did to the characters and the direction the story went, hell dare I say that we both might even respect it all the more for *not* simply giving us "ALIENS 2" with Ripley and Hicks kicking *** just like they did before. I started to feel the resentment for SW going in a similar direction as well but TROS brought me back and the ST all around won me over much quicker than Alien 3 did. I can't help but wonder if you may one day revisit these films, particularly the much maligned TLJ which is just so beautifully shot and poignantly acted, and come to respect and even admire these as well.

I'm not betting money on it or anything but I can't help but wonder, if only because of Alien 3 which *was* an "undesirable story" but expertly told.

That's a damn fair point with the Alien 3 comparison. And the existence of fans of the ST who never would have asked for the story they got does kind of unravel the neat bow I was trying to put on the argument with that post of mine you and Xipotec quoted.

I suppose what is required is, well - a desire - to find a way (to find a way ) to like something that you initially found undesirable. What a sentence. I had that with Alien 3 for whatever reason while I currently don't for the ST.

You haven't beaten me. You have sacrificed sure footing for a killing stroke!

Wrong choice my friend...Khev be like:

 

[The Buffinator]

Yoda is dope as hell in the PT. I like bad-*** Yoda more than hermit Yoda.

Uses the force like a beast to fight like that.

Y?all thought freakin Yoda wouldn?t be a master with a saber?

I agree. Seeing Yoda in full-flight during the PT was awesome.

His being adept with a lightsaber was fine/cool, but having him bounce around like The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County was IMO a bit much. The first time it happened (AOTC vs. Dooku I think) it took me completely out of the movie. I immediately thought of this guy:

 

[a-dev]

No one has that source for the Lucas conversation from the 80s that pretty much proves Yoda, as originally conceived, was not a lightsaber-wielding squirrel ninja?

Wrong choice my friend...Khev be like:

 

[jye4ever]

Look at my 4k ultra HD smile

 

[hellgrammite00]

His being adept with a lightsaber was fine/cool, but having him bounce around like The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County was IMO a bit much. The first time it happened (AOTC vs. Dooku I think) it took me completely out of the movie. I immediately thought of this guy:

The problem with Jedi is it can range from being cool, to dumb and stupid. Their abilities can range from jumping many stories, running 10x the speed of a normal person, alter the minds of those around them at will, convert themselves to a walking ghost, healing injuries and shooting lightning that could cover a continent.

When its grounded and they feel more like Knights with some cool powers, its can be fun and powerful. When it is played up it gets campy or downright silly. Which is fine, but it can get a little awkward to give them a proper villain, which is why the ST was stuck in a loop of having to have a Sith Mastermind, because they are the only real threat for a Jedi.

The Last Jedi in a way is an a subtle (not subtle) criticism of star wars, and why having Jedi creates Sith, and its an endless battle of stupid cartoon characters with magic. The regular people in the movies end up with nothing to do, which is why ROTJ has some really really terrible parts.

The OT has a charm and magic, it never should have led to all this other crap. We all know in 10 years we are going to get a sequel trilogy to LOTR, and Sauron will be back, and people will be so excited.