Star Wars Saga (OT/PT/ST) Discussion Thread

[ZE_501]

Boy you really got riled up by KK's t-shirts didn't you.

I get riled up when mega-corporations appropriate meaningful ideas and pervert them, yes.

Fortunately for myself I don't give a **** what some executive wears for photo ops, I'm only concerned with the end product.

You already know what I think of their end product.

So what if Finn was a lifelong warrior who fought alongside capable women. So was Kyle Reese and *he* took Sarah's hand when helping her flee. Why? Because she was still a *civilian.*

I don't think you can ignore the fact that the two films and scenes are tonally very different. Reese was played as a soldier on a mission and Connor was immediately portrayed as completely out-of-her-depth. Finn was played as a comedic fish out of water while Rey was a cardboard cut-out of a 'strong woman'.

So it's bad if a woman is presented as capable

No.

and it's bad if that same woman is *incapable* of resisting the lure of an abusive or manipulative man.

The point of my post was pointing out the hypocrisy of Disney's virtue-signaling. Their protagonist gains dimensionality via her relationship with an abuser. It's a cheap shortcut and a hackneyed one at that.

And then when she *does* resist him and only accepts him after he has fully redeemed himself let me guess,

The messaging flies in the face of the "YAY WE'RE FEMINIST NOW" party line the corporation was spewing.

it's still bad, lol. It sounds like someone just likes to complain.

There is a difference between 'someone who likes to complain' and an honest critique. Not everything comes down to 'fans' or 'haters'. I'm not some isolated crank with a bone to pick. I wanted to like this trilogy.

 

[ZE_501]

I'll give you Admiral Karen but good lord your assessment of Rey is way off the mark. She's an archetype for gosh sakes, and a very universal one at that. Take your assessment of her being saved by a murdering scumbag at the end and apply it to Luke and Vader if you want to realize how silly it is.

I've been quite vocal about how goofy Vader's 'redemption' is. And you can model a character on an archetype but that doesn't guarantee artful execution of said archetype.

 

[JAWS]

Great, they give her some "You go girl" moments. She's still in a conflicted relationship with an abusive psychopath and tenderly kisses him while unable to extricate herself from him until he conveniently dies for her. Oopsie, all is forgiven Kylo.

I would kiss Charles Manson if he brought me back from the dead

 

[ZE_501]

I would kiss Charles Manson if he brought me back from the dead

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[The Buffinator]

I would kiss Charles Manson if he brought me back from the dead

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But probably not Jimmy Fallon in drag. Gotta draw the line somewhere.

 

[JAWS]

That little "good luck" comment at the end tells so much. It tells that you're just playing a game of bash the PT and you won't listen to any argument that tries to support it. It's a game the usual suspects play no matter what thread they are in.

I say that because would be an effort.. It took a cartoon series for me to care about the Obi Wan / Anakin relationship

Sorry.. But I believe in the friendship between Poe and Finn a lot more then I did or cared about Anakin or Obi Wan. I liked Finn and Reys relationship more then Anakin and Padme's and feel that that was lost chance by the ST brining them together.. Their hugs in TFA and TLJ feel more like a real emotional connection then anything Anakin, Padme, or Obi Wan had.

I wish the PT had that.. Because there is a great idea and story to be told in the PT.. Its a more important story then the ST. But due to the bad acting and awful dialogue they had to deliver and the strange storytelling choices Lucas made.. Well he ruined what should have been truly epic... It had the ability (story wise) to be better then the OT. The fall of Anakin Skywalker and the Rise of the Empire.. My god what a blunder.

I saw the PT through rose-colored glasses because I was just glad to have a backstory for the OT.

Others see the ST through rose-colored glasses because they're just glad to see Luke, Leia and Han again.

It all goes back to the OT.

I saw the PT through Rose colored glasses for sure..

I think I saw the ST for exactly what it was at the time.. I just went astray with the last film

Age

It comes for us all.

Moved on? No you haven't. No I haven't. Nor has anyone who still bothers to come to internet forums to talk about Star Wars


I don't see it happening but I would like it to.

Exactly.. The only way some seem to move on is if the ST gets Retconed. Thats not really moving on.

Ummm... does that really count if Rey is the one doing the abusing in the relationship?

First movie ends with her slicing Kylo with Anakin's lightsaber.

Second one has her leave him for dead on a crumbling ship and then ends with her literally closing the door on Kylo to figuratively shut him out.

Third one has her stab him, and in need of her mercy and rescue. It ends with him dying so she can live - and she couldn't give a mouse turd because she goes on with her life seemingly unphased and happy.

It's an abusive relationship alright... for Kylo/Ben.

Yep.. I have said this before.

It was an abusive relationship that went both ways.

Having said that.. The kiss at the end was stupid and forced and did not belong.

If not for RJ diverting expectations i think the smart move would have been to have Rey and Finn.. They had real chemistry that made logical sense.

Sure her and Kylo had this Diad thing.. but the kiss was forced and unearned.

 

[JAWS]

I'll give you Admiral Karen but good lord your assessment of Rey is way off the mark. She's an archetype for gosh sakes, and a very universal one at that. Take your assessment of her being saved by a murdering scumbag at the end and apply it to Luke and Vader if you want to realize how silly it is.

Great point.

 

[jye4ever]

I say that because would be an effort.. It took a cartoon series for me to care about the Obi Wan / Anakin relationship

Sorry.. But I believe in the friendship between Poe and Finn a lot more then I did or cared about Anakin or Obi Wan. I liked Finn and Reys relationship more then Anakin and Padme's and feel that that was lost chance by the ST brining them together.. Their hugs in TFA and TLJ feel more like a real emotional connection then anything Anakin, Padme, or Obi Wan had.

I wish the PT had that.. Because there is a great idea and story to be told in the PT.. Its a more important story then the ST. But due to the bad acting and awful dialogue they had to deliver and the strange storytelling choices Lucas made.. Well he ruined what should have been truly epic... It had the ability (story wise) to be better then the OT. The fall of Anakin Skywalker and the Rise of the Empire.. My god what a blunder.



I saw the PT through Rose colored glasses for sure..

I think I saw the ST for exactly what it was at the time.. I just went astray with the last film





Age

It comes for us all.





Exactly.. The only way some seem to move on is if the ST gets Retconed. Thats not really moving on.



Yep.. I have said this before.

It was an abusive relationship that went both ways.

Having said that.. The kiss at the end was stupid and forced and did not belong.

If not for RJ diverting expectations i think the smart move would have been to have Rey and Finn.. They had real chemistry that made logical sense.

Sure her and Kylo had this Diad thing.. but the kiss was forced and unearned.

If not a kiss they could've at least shown Rey acknowledging his force power what a B! lol

 

[ajp4mgs]

If not for RJ diverting expectations i think the smart move would have been to have Rey and Finn.. They had real chemistry that made logical sense.

The only Jedi ever shown (in the actual movies) to have a romantic relationship was Anakin. If you're going to have a Jedi hook up with someone who survives the trilogy, then you're redefining a major precept of the Jedi Order. I don't know if they'd want to establish that precedent going forward.

Rey was in a unique position to be able to become a Jedi at an advanced age because she'd have no pre-existing emotional attachments (no lovers, no siblings, no living parents). She leaves the trilogy with friends, sure, but no stronger attachments. Given her dark family history, it's probably better for her if she doesn't get too attached and become emotionally vulnerable to the dark side.

It's easy for fans to say so-and-so should've hooked up with so-and-so, but these decisions could have larger ramifications for future stories.

Sure her and Kylo had this Diad thing.. but the kiss was forced and unearned.

Every kiss in the ST was forced and unearned. Rose kissing Finn; Rey kissing Ben; big-nose lady kissing the other chick.

 

[Khev]

I don't think you can ignore the fact that the two films and scenes are tonally very different. Reese was played as a soldier on a mission and Connor was immediately portrayed as completely out-of-her-depth. Finn was played as a comedic fish out of water while Rey was a cardboard cut-out of a 'strong woman'.

Friendless, lonely, and lost without her family is your definition of a "strong woman" cardboard cut-out? I stand by my assertion that you have no appreciation for archetypes. She was literally a scavenger who grew up on a post-apocalyptic world. Nausicaa, Mad Max, Waterworld Kevin Costner. Imagine any soldier dropping from the sky and assuming that any of those characters would need help on their home turf. Everyone of them would have said GTFO of here. But if Rey does it it's suddenly a strong woman preaching to the clueless males? GTFO of here, lol.

The messaging flies in the face of the "YAY WE'RE FEMINIST NOW" party line the corporation was spewing.

Exactly.

So maybe try and revise your talking points and recognize that these aren't "third wave" feminist films.

There is a difference between 'someone who likes to complain' and an honest critique. Not everything comes down to 'fans' or 'haters'. I'm not some isolated crank with a bone to pick. I wanted to like this trilogy.

I didn't say that you do like to complain, only that it sounds like you do.

 

[JAWS]

The only Jedi ever shown (in the actual movies) to have a romantic relationship was Anakin. If you're going to have a Jedi hook up with someone who survives the trilogy, then you're redefining a major precept of the Jedi Order. I don't know if they'd want to establish that precedent going forward.

Leia stopped her training but she was hooking up with Han..


I thought the purpose of the PT was to show how dogmatic the Jedi order had become. Kind of like not letting priest get married.

Imagine how well things could have turned out for Anakin if he didnt have to hide his relationship.

Rey was in a unique position to be able to become a Jedi at an advanced age because she'd have no pre-existing emotional attachments (no lovers, no siblings, no living parents). She leaves the trilogy with friends, sure, but no stronger attachments. Given her dark family history, it's probably better for her if she doesn't get too attached and become emotionally vulnerable to the dark side.

Again I feel that is just wrong think Jedi Order stuff.

It's easy for fans to say so-and-so should've hooked up with so-and-so, but these decisions could have larger ramifications for future stories.

If you want no hook up then that is fine.. But the there was a foundation laid for Rey and Finn and it was working. The Kylo / Rey thing was dumb.

Every kiss in the ST was forced and unearned. Rose kissing Finn; Rey kissing Ben; big-nose lady kissing the other chick.

Not Han and Leia though.. Not Luke and Leia either.. Ewwwww.

 

[xipotec]

They could have gone the "Three's Company" route where Anakin is always hearing Obi-Wan and Padme in the next room talking about something innocent that sounds totally suggestive out of context, lol.

Then Anakin could be all:

Post of the day right here...


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[Khev]

The one that gets me the most will always be the Luke narrative. Guy ends the OT having reached an epiphany regarding giving in to violence and anger. He throws down his sword and leaves himself at the mercy of two enemies rather than continue to draw arms. Ends his life by symbolically facing down "the whole First Order" with his "laser sword" to save his sister and her allies. He accomplishes it without shedding any blood, and he affirms that the Jedi are reborn.

And the reaction? Outrage. I'll never stop being at a loss on that one.

So true. I've watched the OT several times since the ST came out and every time Yoda describes how a Jedi should use the Force it aligns *perfectly* with Luke on Crait. But no Crait Luke is still fodder for outrage while him taking out some droids in a hallway is enough to make groan men weep, lol. Am I the only one who had already seen Luke kicking *** in his prime way back in ROTJ? And it was actually Mark Hamill doing the ***-kicking, not the Dain Ironfoot version of Luke, lol.

I mean it was still a cool scene and I'm happy for people that got that emotionally caught up in it but it wasn't this life epiphany moment that I had to see in order to die happy or anything, lol.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I thought the purpose of the PT was to show how dogmatic the Jedi order had become. Kind of like not letting priest get married.

Imagine how well things could have turned out for Anakin if he didnt have to hide his relationship.

I still find it confusing what the ultimate takeaway should be about the Jedi dogma following the PT and OT.

Luke's attachment to his sister caused him to violently lash out against the father he had been trying to save. He ended up on the verge of killing him. Sure, Luke was able to save himself, but I interpreted that as Luke just having unique strength to self-correct. I don't just assume that all future Jedi would have the same ability.

For me, I don't mind the Jedi doctrine on attachments. Ahsoka continued to point out the dangers in The Mandalorian, so it's not like Filoni and co. aren't aware of the ongoing logic behind it.

Not Han and Leia though.. Not Luke and Leia either..

True. Good point.

Ewwwww.

So true. I've watched the OT several times since the ST came out and every time Yoda describes how a Jedi should use the Force it aligns *perfectly* with Luke on Crait. But no Crait Luke is still fodder for outrage while him taking out some droids in a hallway is enough to make groan men weep, lol. Am I the only one who had already seen Luke kicking *** in his prime way back in ROTJ? And it was actually Mark Hamill doing the ***-kicking, not the Dain Ironfoot version of Luke, lol.

I mean it was still a cool scene and I'm happy for people that got that emotionally caught up in it but it wasn't this life epiphany moment that I had to see in order to die happy or anything, lol.

I obviously concur.

 

[JAWS]

Friendless, lonely, and lost without her family is your definition of a "strong woman" cardboard cut-out? I stand by my assertion that you have no appreciation for archetypes. She was literally a scavenger who grew up on a post-apocalyptic world. Nausicaa, Mad Max, Waterworld Kevin Costner. Imagine any soldier dropping from the sky and assuming that any of those characters would need help on their home turf. Everyone of them would have said GTFO of here. But if Rey does it it's suddenly a strong woman preaching to the clueless males? GTFO of here, lol.

Rey never came across as a cardboard cut out strong woman IMO.. I mean I guess I was there with that feeling after TFA and TLJ but after reflecting some I have come to understand her defeat of Kylo was more about Kylo and less about Rey and her use of Force powers without training is no crazier then Luke doing what he did with little to now training and Little Anakin blowing up a space station like he did with little to no understanding of the Force. I accepted both of those without a 2nd thought.

Now Rey's Jedi mind trick.. Hmmmm that seems a bit more of a "Force training needed" type move. But then again so did grabbing the saber on Hoth for Luke. At least with Luke and Anakin movies on the X-wing and Naboo fighter it was about skill and feeling... Jedi mind trick seems like something you would need to be shown how to do and not something that comes with being strong in the force.


But that is my only issue. Everything else can be explained away with Kylo having his own issues in TFA, Rey having Palps blood running through her, and a year of training under Leia.


I also fail to see her "nothing bad happens to Rey"

IMO she gets the worse news of all.. She is the grand Daughter of the Emperor.. Someone who does not turn into a big softy when he finds out he has family. The worst person in the galaxy and that has weight to it and we see that throughout TROS.

She also is always letting anger have an effect on what she is doing. In fact till the end of TROS rarely do you see her not fighting out of anger. So she is always on the verge also.. Granted I dont know if I would have noticed if not for where her bloodline comes from and it is something that I read into the earlier films now.. But that is SW as a whole half the time.. Seeing things differently when you look back on them.

Anyways She gets captured by Kylo, loosed her father figure han, she does not get the mentor she wants in Luke, gets tossed around by Snoke, fails to bring Kylo to the light side (causing the death of Luke), most of the resistance is destroyed, she goes through the emotional pain of thinking she killed Chewie, she thinks her family are a bunch of drunks that sold her off and then finds out she is the daughter of the emperor. She loses her mother figure and teacher, she Needs the the help of all the Jedi to finally win and for Ben Solo to save her life

She does not loose a limb.. I guess that is the one advantage she has on Luke.



The ST has its issues for sure. No question about that from me. Rey is not one of them.. Not to me. Not anymore.

 

[JAWS]

So true. I've watched the OT several times since the ST came out and every time Yoda describes how a Jedi should use the Force it aligns *perfectly* with Luke on Crait. But no Crait Luke is still fodder for outrage while him taking out some droids in a hallway is enough to make groan men weep, lol. Am I the only one who had already seen Luke kicking *** in his prime way back in ROTJ? And it was actually Mark Hamill doing the ***-kicking, not the Dain Ironfoot version of Luke, lol.

I mean it was still a cool scene and I'm happy for people that got that emotionally caught up in it but it wasn't this life epiphany moment that I had to see in order to die happy or anything, lol.

Luke's move on Crate is the most Jedi thing a jedi could do. Save lives without taking any.


Admittedly its not nearly as exciting as destroying droids in a hallways

 

[Khev]

Rey never came across as a cardboard cut out strong woman IMO.. I mean I guess I was there with that feeling after TFA and TLJ but after reflecting some I have come to understand her defeat of Kylo was more about Kylo and less about Rey and her use of Force powers without training is no crazier then Luke doing what he did with little to now training and Little Anakin blowing up a space station like he did with little to no understanding of the Force. I accepted both of those without a 2nd thought.

Now Rey's Jedi mind trick.. Hmmmm that seems a bit more of a "Force training needed" type move. But then again so did grabbing the saber on Hoth for Luke. At least with Luke and Anakin movies on the X-wing and Naboo fighter it was about skill and feeling... Jedi mind trick seems like something you would need to be shown how to do and not something that comes with being strong in the force.


But that is my only issue. Everything else can be explained away with Kylo having his own issues in TFA, Rey having Palps blood running through her, and a year of training under Leia.


I also fail to see her "nothing bad happens to Rey"

IMO she gets the worse news of all.. She is the grand Daughter of the Emperor.. Someone who does not turn into a big softy when he finds out he has family. The worst person in the galaxy and that has weight to it and we see that throughout TROS.

She also is always letting anger have an effect on what she is doing. In fact till the end of TROS rarely do you see her not fighting out of anger. So she is always on the verge also.. Granted I dont know if I would have noticed if not for where her bloodline comes from and it is something that I read into the earlier films now.. But that is SW as a whole half the time.. Seeing things differently when you look back on them.

Anyways She gets captured by Kylo, loosed her father figure han, she does not get the mentor she wants in Luke, gets tossed around by Snoke, fails to bring Kylo to the light side (causing the death of Luke), goes through the emotional pain of thinking she killed Chewie, she thinks her family are a bunch of drunks that sold her off and then finds out she is the daughter of the emperor. Needs the the help of all the Jedi to finally win an for Ben Solo to save her life

She does not loose a limb.. I guess that is the one advantage she has on Luke.



The ST has its issues for sure. No question about that from me. Rey is not one of them.. Not to me. Not anymore.

Absolutely fantastic post. And I agree on her Jedi Mind Trick feeling like something that she should have either had specific training on or at the very least watched someone else do. But like you said Luke, nor even the audience(!), had ever witnessed the Force used for levitation until he was able to just do it out of the blue in the Wampa cave. So at the very least Rey wasn't just inventing new ways to use the Force that we'd never seen before prior to any training and we'll just have to assume that since she was aware of the "myth" of Luke Skywalker that she could have heard tales of Jedi Mind Tricks too, especially since it was one of the more commonly used Force techniques among all Jedi (even freaking Ezra did it all the time, lol.)

Awesome point about Palpatine's reaction to discovering he had offspring compared to Vader. Damn TROS Palps made OT Vader even more of a p***y villain didn't he, lol.

 

[jye4ever]

So true. I've watched the OT several times since the ST came out and every time Yoda describes how a Jedi should use the Force it aligns *perfectly* with Luke on Crait. But no Crait Luke is still fodder for outrage while him taking out some droids in a hallway is enough to make groan men weep, lol. Am I the only one who had already seen Luke kicking *** in his prime way back in ROTJ? And it was actually Mark Hamill doing the ***-kicking, not the Dain Ironfoot version of Luke, lol.

I mean it was still a cool scene and I'm happy for people that got that emotionally caught up in it but it wasn't this life epiphany moment that I had to see in order to die happy or anything, lol.

I only cried because thankfully it was Luke they went with, which made the most sense, than that videogame Jedi Cal something or other lol

 

[JAWS]

Absolutely fantastic post. And I agree on her Jedi Mind Trick feeling like something that she should have either had specific training on or at the very least watched someone else do. But like you said Luke, nor even the audience(!), had ever witnessed the Force used for levitation until he was able to just do it out of the blue in the Wampa cave. So at the very least Rey wasn't just inventing new ways to use the Force that we'd never seen before prior to any training and we'll just have to assume that since she was aware of the "myth" of Luke Skywalker that she could have heard tales of Jedi Mind Tricks too, especially since it was one of the more commonly used Force techniques among all Jedi (even freaking Ezra did it all the time, lol.)

Awesome point about Palpatine's reaction to discovering he had offspring compared to Vader. Damn TROS Palps made OT Vader even more of a p***y villain didn't he, lol.

I was there with most after TFA and TLJ.. I said the words Mary Sue a lot.. Now that its all over.. I don't see it that way. Not when Luke is not all that different. Much like the Spider-man movies its the characters that hold the ST together.. FOR ME.. I am not sold on the story as a whole and have issues with many things in the films. It has some of my most hated plot points in any of the films.. But the characters of Rey and Kylo really work for me. I also enjoy Finn and Poe for the most part especially when they are on screen together. Han and Luke are great also. If you dont like the characters or the direction they took with the OT cast then its going to be very difficult to like anything about these films.. I get that for sure. Of course I find that true of most movies.. Regardless of how good the story is you better like the characters the movie is about.

That has always been my point about the difference for me in the ST an PT.. Not that I like the ST that much more then the PT. I just like the characters better as they have better acting, dialogue and more chemistry together. That is poison I choose

If the PT had the acting, directing, chemistry, and dialogue of the ST.. It would not be a contest.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I'll give you Admiral Karen ....

Didn't Holdo break her movie's own message: she totally attacked what she hated