Star Wars: The Acolyte

[ebor]

My take away episode #8

Please hold my sabre for me, wear my helmet — I promise not Force-rape you ( but I might wipe your mind,… I might be ‘bad’ , but not a liar (aka a Jedi)

This show was a flip flopping mess and now that Yoda is teased… they (the producers/Disney) will tarnish the last remaining OG characters - Yoda and the Jedi in general — IF season 2 is greenlit

 

[Otomofan]

Ha. There were so many laughably inept details in the finale I totally forgot about the Force power to completely wipe someone's mind.

Too bad nobody knew they could just do that at any time in any of the other SW movies.

 

[loki2371]

Ha. There were so many laughably inept details in the finale I totally forgot about the Force power to completely wipe someone's mind.

Too bad nobody knew they could just do that at any time in any of the other SW movies.

Yeah... Too bad Luke didn't know how to do that. Damn Yoda for not teaching him.

Otherwise instead of that ahole trying to kill his nephew in his sleep, he could've just mind wiped him..

Sorry Han and the rest of the galaxy.

 

[chrisstbh]

Force mind wiping appeared in TCW and was also in Legends.

In fact it also plays a pretty major role in the story of everyone’s favourite Star Wars game; KOTOR. It’s the whole reason that story was able to happen.

It’s not new.

 

[Sassafras]

My take away episode #8

Please hold my sabre for me, wear my helmet — I promise not Force-rape you ( but I might wipe your mind,… I might be ‘bad’ , but not a liar (aka a Jedi)

This show was a flip flopping mess and now that Yoda is teased… they (the producers/Disney) will tarnish the last remaining OG characters - Yoda and the Jedi in general — IF season 2 is greenlit

It just needs to lay where it plopped like a cow pat and compost away, like the one-and-done shows Netflix has/had. Netflix is notorious for canceling even good shows with big followings. If this weren't Disney an S2 wouldn't even be a thought.

And there won't be companies clamoring for a merch license either. No bobble head plushies unless someone makes one of Ms. Jiggle like those car hula dancers.

That's thousands of potential dollars lost. The only reasons I think about it at all are: 1) Lee Jung-Jae - hope he goes on to a great career and 2) Hilarious YT vids.

If Disney greenlights an S2 - like, there's some bright spots like Andor, and I keep hoping this company turns itself around, but at that point even my battered optimism will crash and burn like the Razor Crest - or more like the twins who kept having crash landings with no injuries.

 

[How2TrainKaiju]

Basically story group want it ambiguous for now, comic made it too explicit so story group went rabble rabble and the writers had to state "we weren't being literal, it is still ambiguous we promise".

Holy Mother of midichlorions.

 

[YoNoSe]

If there is a season 2 I hope it's about Basil's trial for treason.

 

[jaztermareal]

Force mind wiping appeared in TCW and was also in Legends.

In fact it also plays a pretty major role in the story of everyone’s favourite Star Wars game; KOTOR. It’s the whole reason that story was able to happen.

It’s not new.

I don't know where it was used previously but it is a stupid idea no matter where it first appeared (like hyperspace enabled space whales).

The old EU was already criticised back in the day for jumping the shark repeatedly and was not considered canon, only the movies truly counted and they avoided most of the dumb stuff. What is happening under Disney is that all the terrible ideas (mind wiping, tracking fobs that can track anyone without a need for a tracker to be placed on them, hyperspeed enabled space whales, witches with green magic smoke powers, remote control of ships no tracor beam needed, the various character assasination moments like Han being a deadbeat failure of a dad or Luke a would be nephew murderer, Mary Space Poppins Leia, horses running on Star Destroyers, the list goes on and on and on) get canonised in live action for the entire general audience to see, laugh at, then decide Star Wars is stupid over.


It is like blasting your hand off with a shotgun for a tiktok then when someone points out that it was a stupid idea and will have permanent negative consequences you argue back "tiktokkers A, B and C all uploaded vids of them blasting fingers off their hands"
Doesn't make you not stupid, it makes you extra stupid for copying obviously bad ideas knowing full well what the result is. Bad ideas are bad ideas, canonising them in live action is the worst possible idea.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

I think you're not factoring in that Lucas is a child of the counter-culture, very 60's, so he's always been an "anti-establishment" type of dude. That was very clear since A New Hope was simply Star Wars. Rebels = Freedom Fighters = Guerrillas.
So it's natural that when he starts writing about the Jedi order, he also points to the failings of such a strict dogmatic institution. He doesn't write them a stupid, since even the Jedi themselves understand that they are screwing up (Yoda comments on it, Dooku spells it out to Obi Wan, and lets not forget Qui Gonn's stance). That the Jedi Order is failing is the whole point, and the reason why Anakin ends up falling for Palpatine's machinations. By the way, that is probably the only thing I like about TLJ, that it openly addresses the fact that the Jedi were flawed.
Anakin doesn't forget that his mother is a slave, he just can't do anything about it, because the Jedi frown upon such attachments. The hubris and dogma of the Jedi is their downfall. I suppose you can say that is being a moron, but it doesn't play that way to me.

So we all see things differently. I respect your right to disagree. I'm OK with disagreement, there would be nothing interesting to talk about if we all thought the same way and held the same perspectives.

I just find Lucas hid behind the "Jedi As Stoics Beyond All Reason" card far too many times. One of the major problems IMHO with the PT Jedi Council is Lucas was hesitant to create anything perceived as too negative about Obi Wan and/or Yoda. As they are beloved legacy characters. And we get a throwaway character in Mace Windu ( i.e. if you wrote him out completely, what would you lose in the story? You wouldn't lose anything at all) We get a few lines from Ki Adi Mundi as the voice of the almost to point of delusional skeptic angle, and that's it. Lucas just made them literally brain dead as a collective.

You see flawed. I see bad writing and the inability to create efficient practical characters where suspension of disbelief will hold together based on the world building.

I liked the Acolyte. Mostly because I felt it was actually pretty honest about holding to true Lucas canon for the Jedi. Not the patchovers. Not the rationalizations of them. Not fancasting with some retcons for them. But that they were just lousy people who happened to be born with some magic mix of space wizard STDs. At least Headland packaged it as a pseudo criticism of organized religion ( mostly her open disdain for Christianity, which is a bit more evident in Russian Doll IMHO) so the modern audience could relate in some way.

The litmus test IMHO is when you pressure test each character for the existence ( or not ) of personal agency. In doing that, literally all the Jedi characters in the PT just fall apart. I love the Holy Trilogy. It has incredible world building and it's fun and you care about the characters. It's a great adventure. But it's very superficial in nature. This is not 2001 A Space Odyssey. It's not The Expanse. And that's OK, it doesn't need to be. But if Lucas wanted to play to his strengths, he should have just kept it superficial. Real complex parental dynamics, a fully fleshed out love story, trade blockades and high stakes political maneuvering was just way out of his basic wheelhouse.

Is The Acolyte perfect? No, it's got a ton of flaws. But it's mostly a compact story. And, bizarrely, I found it to be painfully honest about what Lucas lore actually left behind for everyone in terms of the Jedi and their 'competence' Lucas is both a great superficial level storyteller but also a very limited writer. When he got older and lost his fastball, the latter became too much and too overwhelming for the former.

 

[chrisstbh]

I don't know where it was used previously but it is a stupid idea no matter where it first appeared (like hyperspace enabled space whales).

The old EU was already criticised back in the day for jumping the shark repeatedly and was not considered canon, only the movies truly counted and they avoided most of the dumb stuff. What is happening under Disney is that all the terrible ideas (mind wiping, tracking fobs that can track anyone without a need for a tracker to be placed on them, hyperspeed enabled space whales, witches with green magic smoke powers, remote control of ships no tracor beam needed, the various character assasination moments like Han being a deadbeat failure of a dad or Luke a would be nephew murderer, Mary Space Poppins Leia, horses running on Star Destroyers, the list goes on and on and on) get canonised in live action for the entire general audience to see, laugh at, then decide Star Wars is stupid over.


It is like blasting your hand off with a shotgun for a tiktok then when someone points out that it was a stupid idea and will have permanent negative consequences you argue back "tiktokkers A, B and C all uploaded vids of them blasting fingers off their hands"
Doesn't make you not stupid, it makes you extra stupid for copying obviously bad ideas knowing full well what the result is. Bad ideas are bad ideas, canonising them in live action is the worst possible idea.

Nobody complained about it then, funny that it’s only now suddenly a problem because Disney used it.

It was already canon, in The Clone Wars, before Disney and nobody spoke out about it before. I don’t agree that it’s a dumb power.

People just seem to be hating on anything that appears in this show simply because it’s in this show. The show has problems, it’s not very good, but it’s not the worst thing ever made and some of it’s ideas were good/interesting even if executed poorly.

This whole mindset online where everything is either the greatest thing ever or the worst thing ever is just exhausting at this point.

 

[jaztermareal]

Nobody complained about it then, funny that it’s only now suddenly a problem because Disney used it.

It was already canon, in The Clone Wars, before Disney and nobody spoke out about it before. I don’t agree that it’s a dumb power.

People just seem to be hating on anything that appears in this show simply because it’s in this show. The show has problems, it’s not very good, but it’s not the worst thing ever made and some of it’s ideas were good/interesting even if executed poorly.

This whole mindset online where everything is either the greatest thing ever or the worst thing ever is just exhausting at this point.

Pretty sure if you go looking you will find old complaints. I hated a lot of the stupid in TCW and many folk criticised the EU. Only thing making it harder to find is that many of the boards are now long gone along with all the criticism of old, but ask the old timers, they recall it all. Again, Disney is dumb for canonising bad ideas that before were not canon or at least not prime canon and folk are right to be criticising it now more than ever for the lazy, plot hole creating, plot device it is

 

[chrisstbh]

Pretty sure if you go looking you will find old complaints. I hated a lot of the stupid in TCW and many folk criticised the EU. Only thing making it harder to find is that many of the boards are now long gone along with all the criticism of old, but ask the old timers, they recall it all. Again, Disney is dumb for canonising bad ideas that before were not canon or at least not prime canon and folk are right to be criticising it now more than ever for the lazy, plot hole creating, plot device it is

Still disagree, it doesn’t create any plot holes. Nothing in this show breaks any canon or anything of the sort.

There was no opportunity in the precious OT or even the PT for such an ability to be used. Just because we didn’t see it there doesn’t mean it can’t exist.

 

[Mandible]

Nobody complained about it then, funny that it’s only now suddenly a problem because Disney used it.

It was already canon, in The Clone Wars, before Disney and nobody spoke out about it before. I don’t agree that it’s a dumb power.

People just seem to be hating on anything that appears in this show simply because it’s in this show. The show has problems, it’s not very good, but it’s not the worst thing ever made and some of it’s ideas were good/interesting even if executed poorly.

This whole mindset online where everything is either the greatest thing ever or the worst thing ever is just exhausting at this point.

The difference is cartoon (hardcore viewers only), EU (hardcore readers only), versus live action tv or film - general viewers. Hardcores will swallow any **** with a SW logo on it and think its a great.

So as he said - general viewers now think SW is a laughable dud.

 

[chrisstbh]

The difference is cartoon (hardcore viewers only), EU (hardcore readers only), versus live action tv or film - general viewers. Hardcores will swallow any **** with a SW logo on it and think its a great.

Except I don't swallow any **** with a SW logo on it and think its great. In fact I'm very critical of a lot of Star Wars content.

Mind wiping is not a bad concept, it's essentially a higher level mind trick, it was just executed poorly in the show.

So as he said - general viewers now think SW is a laughable dud.

The people dragging The Acolyte online don't seem like general viewers to me, they seem like hardcore fans. General audiences do not care for internet drama. This includes movies, TV and video games.

 

[jaztermareal]

There were many oportunities, such as wiping anakins memory to deal with his attachments or Sidious/Dooku could have wiped Nute Gunrays memory to hide sith involvement etc. It could have been used to explain away all sorts but never was because George never intended it to be a thing.

At the end of the day the Acolyte is getting ripped apart for good reason. I do think people go softer on things like the Mandalorian simply because they enjoyed it so you could say it is a little bit of a double standard but I think it more boils down to people being willing to look past faults when something is overall good but not having any forgiveness/being unwilling to offer a pass when something just isn't good. The Acolyte failed to please so people are unwilling to look past even minor faults. My view is to critique everything wrong with every show even the good ones (like Andor lacking any protocol droids for translating. I hate that people in Star Wars just understand alien languages all the time. Or the pistachios being eaten which was too earth-y. Same with barely modded AK-47's etc).

This show deserves criticism for using lazy plot device that yes DOES create plot holes for the entire saga.

Still disagree, it doesn’t create any plot holes. Nothing in this show breaks any canon or anything of the sort.

There was no opportunity in the precious OT or even the PT for such an ability to be used. Just because we didn’t see it there doesn’t mean it can’t exist.

Another issue is power creep. Disney just keep adding more and more force powers and ramping up power levels. It starts to become meaningless after they do too much and it only diminishes the OT. It turns jedi and sith into MCU style super heros rather than warrior monks/samurai.
All magic systems (the force counts as such) need strict rules and limits in order to prevent deus ex machina story telling ruining things.

 

[The Buffinator]

Except I don't swallow any **** with a SW logo on it and think its great. In fact I'm very critical of a lot of Star Wars content.

Mind wiping is not a bad concept, it's essentially a higher level mind trick, it was just executed poorly in the show.

I've never read the EU stuff or played KOTOR. I only watched The Clone Wars cartoons once and the only memories I recall being wiped belonged to droids. That said, Qimir's ability to wipe Mae's mind (which I assumed was a dark side move he learned from Plagueis or whoever was his master) didn't bother me but rather the narrative decision to do so. I just found it to be an extreme choice and one which Mae agreed to all too readily. Mae wanted Sol to confess in front of the High Council & the government to expose what he and the Jedi did, but with Sol dead that was out the window so she would have wanted to escape just as much as Qimir & Osha. Seems to me they could have taken her with them and, if the rule of 2 forbade her staying with them, hid her away from the Jedi in some remote outpost of the galaxy (Qimir could even wipe the memories of any witnesses to her arrival lol). Also, from Aniseya's threat to erase Padawan Torbin's mind (Episode 3) it seems LH is implying that this is yet another thing the witches did first. I don't have an issue with a Dark Lord cribbing from witches, but mind wiping just seems too invasive & permanent an act for the Jedi to teach & practice. It's not fleeting like a Jedi mind trick.

 

[chrisstbh]

There were many oportunities, such as wiping anakins memory to deal with his attachments or Sidious/Dooku could have wiped Nute Gunrays memory to hide sith involvement etc.

Why would they need to? The Sith already exposed themselves.

Dooku was opening running the CIS as a Sith Lord.

It could have been used to explain away all sorts but never was because George never intended it to be a thing.

George never intended plenty of things like Luke and Leia being siblings, or Leia being the “other”, countless examples of this.

Star Wars and retcons have gone hand in hand since the beginning.

This show deserves criticism for using lazy plot device that yes DOES create plot holes for the entire saga.

Still don’t think it does.

I will agree that it’s handled poorly. It could have been something introduced earlier in the show in a more organic way and then came back around full circle at the end.

It would have made more sense if Osha’s memories were messed with from the beginning or something.

Another issue is power creep. Disney just keep adding more and more force powers and ramping up power levels.

I just don’t care about this. I grew up playing the games with all sorts of crazy powers. So it’s not something that’s jarring to me at all.

 

[jaztermareal]

Why would they need to? The Sith already exposed themselves.

Dooku was opening running the CIS as a Sith Lord.

George never intended plenty of things like Luke and Leia being siblings, or Leia being the “other”, countless examples of this.

Star Wars and retcons have gone hand in hand since the beginning.

Still don’t think it does.

I will agree that it’s handled poorly. It could have been something introduced earlier in the show in a more organic way and then came back around full circle at the end.

It would have made more sense if Osha’s memories were messed with from the beginning or something.

I just don’t care about this. I grew up playing the games with all sorts of crazy powers. So it’s not something that’s jarring to me at all.

Put simply you do not care which is fine. Dooku was not openly Sith at the time when mind wiping Gunray etc would make sense.

Saying "star wars and retcons go hand in hand" is a fallacious argument. The OT didn't retcon as it was just information not yet revealed to the characters or audience, it did not contradict what came before. But even if, for arguments sake, we were to say "yes, even since the OT there have been retcons" that doesn't suddenly make it ok. In fact, it becomes more of a sin the more it happens.

We don't say that a modern car lacking airbags and seatbelts is fine just because "they lacked them from the beginning", no one would think that a valid argument. We expect things to improve over time, be they cars or the art of filmaking. We expect storytelling to improve, for direction to improve, vfx to improve, dialogue to improve and so on because the people working on these projects have the benefit of learning from the past successes and mistakes of those that came before.

The low expectations you set are kind of the problem. "I don't care" you said of power creep, so you are happy with with that aspect of story telling getting lazy and inconsistent. People not caring is why Star Wars is becoming so bad. The fanboys don't care to demand better, the creators don't care to make better quality shows/movies and that results in sub par content that makes general audiences reach the point where we are at now, where what was once THE franchise is now considered stupid and not a must watch saga. Now, because fanboys didn't care to demand better and just accepted slop, because the creators didn't care and just served slop, the general population does not care about Star Wars. It is death by a thousand cuts.

 

[ebor]

Put simply you do not care which is fine. Dooku was not openly Sith at the time when mind wiping Gunray etc would make sense.

Saying "star wars and retcons go hand in hand" is a fallacious argument. The OT didn't retcon as it was just information not yet revealed to the characters or audience, it did not contradict what came before. But even if, for arguments sake, we were to say "yes, even since the OT there have been retcons" that doesn't suddenly make it ok. In fact, it becomes more of a sin the more it happens.

We don't say that a modern car lacking airbags and seatbelts is fine just because "they lacked them from the beginning", no one would think that a valid argument. We expect things to improve over time, be they cars or the art of filmaking. We expect storytelling to improve, for direction to improve, vfx to improve, dialogue to improve and so on because the people working on these projects have the benefit of learning from the past successes and mistakes of those that came before.

The low expectations you set are kind of the problem. "I don't care" you said of power creep, so you are happy with with that aspect of story telling getting lazy and inconsistent. People not caring is why Star Wars is becoming so bad. The fanboys don't care to demand better, the creators don't care to make better quality shows/movies and that results in sub par content that makes general audiences reach the point where we are at now, where what was once THE franchise is now considered stupid and not a must watch saga. Now, because fanboys didn't care to demand better and just accepted slop, because the creators didn't care and just served slop, the general population does not care about Star Wars. It is death by a thousand cuts.

This!!!

 

[chrisstbh]

Put simply you do not care which is fine. Dooku was not openly Sith at the time when mind wiping Gunray etc would make sense.

Saying "star wars and retcons go hand in hand" is a fallacious argument. The OT didn't retcon as it was just information not yet revealed to the characters or audience, it did not contradict what came before. But even if, for arguments sake, we were to say "yes, even since the OT there have been retcons" that doesn't suddenly make it ok. In fact, it becomes more of a sin the more it happens.

We don't say that a modern car lacking airbags and seatbelts is fine just because "they lacked them from the beginning", no one would think that a valid argument. We expect things to improve over time, be they cars or the art of filmaking. We expect storytelling to improve, for direction to improve, vfx to improve, dialogue to improve and so on because the people working on these projects have the benefit of learning from the past successes and mistakes of those that came before.

The low expectations you set are kind of the problem. "I don't care" you said of power creep, so you are happy with with that aspect of story telling getting lazy and inconsistent. People not caring is why Star Wars is becoming so bad. The fanboys don't care to demand better, the creators don't care to make better quality shows/movies and that results in sub par content that makes general audiences reach the point where we are at now, where what was once THE franchise is now considered stupid and not a must watch saga. Now, because fanboys didn't care to demand better and just accepted slop, because the creators didn't care and just served slop, the general population does not care about Star Wars. It is death by a thousand cuts.

I just don't care about a force ability that I've seen multiple times before. My expectations for Star Wars are extremely high. It's my biggest passion in life. I've been extremely critical of it in the past with shows like OWK, BOBF and the Sequel Trilogy. I just don't see this show as being as offensively terrible as others seem to. It was mid at best, it had some stuff I liked but as a whole it's weak. I'll never watch it again but I don't hate it.

I wrote a whole lengthy response but we'll just agree to disagree instead. We're never going to change eachothers perspectives so I don't see the point. I'm checking out of this thread entirely, I don't have anything further to add.