Star Wars: The Force Awakens (12/18/15)

[Darth Snoopy]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

Not sure if I agree with this.
Yes, Anakin was more or less born into slavery, but after he took off with Qui Gonn and Kenobi, he was at the best school, he had the best military academy, the best Jedi teachers...
And he quite clearly states that he has no stomach for politics, bureaucracy or politics in AOTC. He grows up surrounded by the politics of the Jedi Council and the Chancellor. I think he knows very well how they work, and he does state that he doesn't believe in how they work and decides that a one-man rule is the way to go.
And his overriding ambition is his hunger for power, power to protect the ones he loves. In the end, that means absolute power, and once he gives in to the dark side, it consumes him.

This is how I saw Anakin's motivations.

 

[ShadowX81]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

And his overriding ambition is his hunger for power, power to protect the ones he loves. In the end, that means absolute power, and once he gives in to the dark side, it consumes him.

While I agree with this, the problem is that it did not come off as being that dark.

Im sorry to say it, but Hayden Christenson was just way to effeminate to play the powerful warrior Darth Vader.

When he turned to the dark side, his dialogue came off less menacing and more like a little kid throwing a hissy fit. Combine this with the poor performances that George Lucas got out of all the actors and he didn't work at all.

The idea was right, but the execution was a mess.

 

[Lakhota]

While I agree with this, the problem is that it did not come off as being that dark.

Im sorry to say it, but Hayden Christenson was just way to effeminate to play the powerful warrior Darth Vader.

When he turned to the dark side, his dialogue came off less menacing and more like a little kid throwing a hissy fit. Combine this with the poor performances that George Lucas got out of all the actors and he didn't work at all.

The idea was right, but the execution was a mess.

I totally agree, Vader's rise to power was absolutely horrible. There were no surprise twist or anything vaguely comparable 2 the original trilogy.
I was so desperately waiting for there to be two emperors, 1 that was the clone and the other that was human. I figured the clone would have been faulty and destroyed the normal version therefore making him completely evil and not human. I think it would have made a lot more sense to have the Emperor clone himself first because of his greed and power in after he was cloned he went forward with the clone army. The surprise cameos from the original trilogy characters was absolutely not needed either. We could sit here and pick a part the trilogy all day long, but I will never change the fact what is done is done!
sent from my R2 unit

 

[Khonsu70]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

Not sure if I agree with this.
Yes, Anakin was more or less born into slavery, but after he took off with Qui Gonn and Kenobi, he was at the best school, he had the best military academy, the best Jedi teachers...
And he quite clearly states that he has no stomach for politics, bureaucracy or politics in AOTC. He grows up surrounded by the politics of the Jedi Council and the Chancellor. I think he knows very well how they work, and he does state that he doesn't believe in how they work and decides that a one-man rule is the way to go.
And his overriding ambition is his hunger for power, power to protect the ones he loves. In the end, that means absolute power, and once he gives in to the dark side, it consumes him.

Wow, that's a really thoughtful analysis, and it is one of the things that the PT manages to do well. The ingredients for a tragic-hero pre-Vader Anakin are all there, pretty well thought out, but the script/dialogue and acting all betray these elements. AOTC could have and should have been a great film, had we seen a more mature handling of the romance between Anakin and Padme (and for God's sake, Anakin should have kept the slaying of the Sand people a big secret from Padme - no way she should have stuck around after that confession, it really weakens her character! The carnage after the slaughter at the Tusken Raider camp should have been shown, not explained, with Anakin meditating over the body of his mother). The droid factory nonsense - out the window. Use that screen time earlier in the film to have Anakin and Padme in jeopardy on the way to Naboo, as has been mentioned.

One thing that was done with Anakin in the Dark Horse Clone Wars comics that I wish would turn up on the Clone Wars show: depict Anakin trying to use the Force to save the dying, with less-than-stellar results. When/if Ahsoka's time comes, I hope we'll see this... it will more clearly define the choice Anakin has to make in ROTS when Palpatine offers him the one thing he truly desires.

I think it's an interesting theme to explore how a decent person can fall into evil through the best of intentions (saving the ones you love is an understandable enough ambition, even though there are limits). This is something that could be reintroduced in the sequel trilogy.

 

[Khonsu70]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

I totally agree, Vader's rise to power was absolutely horrible. There were no surprise twist or anything vaguely comparable 2 the original trilogy.
I was so desperately waiting for there to be two emperors, 1 that was the clone and the other that was human. I figured the clone would have been faulty and destroyed the normal version therefore making him completely evil and not human. I think it would have made a lot more sense to have the Emperor clone himself first because of his greed and power in after he was cloned he went forward with the clone army. The surprise cameos from the original trilogy characters was absolutely not needed either. We could sit here and pick a part the trilogy all day long, but I will never change the fact what is done is done!
sent from my R2 unit

I was shocked reading this, because I had the exact same hope going into ROTS. I thought, wouldn't it be cool - and make perfect sense - if Chancellor Palpatine was a clone, bred to follow the commands of Sidious, and Sidious emerged out of the shadows and struck down his clone (who meets his fate with absolute equanimity) in secret when the time came for the final power grab? It would explain how the Jedi could sit in the same room with Palpatine and not know he was the Sith Lord they've been searching for! We would be sitting there thinking that we knew all along that Palpatine and Sidious were the same guy, but that wouldn't be the case. We needed a few more story twists than what we had. The double cross of Dooku was a good start, but the Emp is the puppet master, he needed more tricks up his sleeve...

 

[Khonsu70]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

I have not watched much Clone Wars CG. Maybe someone could put together a grown up's guide to key episodes.

Actually, there's a pretty decent list already floating around recent discussions in the clone wars/live action thread!

 

[lerath666]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

I have not watched much Clone Wars CG. Maybe someone could put together a grown up's guide to key episodes.

If you want the majority of it to make sense, you need about 80% of it. perhaps a little less. About 1/2 the first season is clearly geared to a younger audience, much of it in the first half of the season.

but much like smallville, as the series progresses, the story quality gets better and better. as far as anakin stories go, the "dutchess of mandalore" story arch is one of my favorites.

"Which one of you will strike first, and mark yourselves a monster?"

I'm probably butchering the line, but the scene gave me chills.

 

[Lakhota]

I was shocked reading this, because I had the exact same hope going into ROTS. I thought, wouldn't it be cool - and make perfect sense - if Chancellor Palpatine was a clone, bred to follow the commands of Sidious, and Sidious emerged out of the shadows and struck down his clone (who meets his fate with absolute equanimity) in secret when the time came for the final power grab? It would explain how the Jedi could sit in the same room with Palpatine and not know he was the Sith Lord they've been searching for! We would be sitting there thinking that we knew all along that Palpatine and Sidious were the same guy, but that wouldn't be the case. We needed a few more story twists than what we had. The double cross of Dooku was a good start, but the Emp is the puppet master, he needed more tricks up his sleeve...

I totally agree with you we were on the same page. I also kept expecting there to be a love triangle between the 3 of them, were Anakin's hatred for Obi Wan what's fueled by the thought of him and her together. I figured Obi Wan would have hid her after Anakin destroyed the sand people fearing he was getting closer and closer to the dark side.

sent from my R2 unit

 

[Khonsu70]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

I totally agree with you we were on the same page. I also kept expecting there to be a love triangle between the 3 of them, were Anakin's hatred for Obi Wan what's fueled by the thought of him and her together. I figured Obi Wan would have hid her after Anakin destroyed the sand people fearing he was getting closer and closer to the dark side.

sent from my R2 unit

The love triangle was supposed to be there! Pretty sure the early draft of TPM had no Qui Gon, it was Obi Wan who headed the adventure, and Padme had a big crush on him (she was also racist toward the Gungans in the beginning, not allowing Jar jar to board her ship until she was persuaded otherwise. Would have made her pleading before Boss Nass a bit more powerful in the character development department, no?). Anakin's feeling for Padme were unrequited in TPM. Then in AOTC, she lights up when she sees Obi Wan, but notices Anakin has grown up nicely. That's why it was so important for the love affair to be handled correctly. Then in ROTS, Anakin is jealous that Obi Wan has been around checking on Padme at her apartment (in reality, Obi Wan is just concerned out of friendship for Padme, Anakin interprets the interest as something else). On Mustafar, when Obi Wan comes down the ramp of Padme's ship, well...

This was all gutted and lost because the PT was handled so poorly, and it's a terrible shame. One more promising story element that was lost in the push to make these movies "kid friendly".

 

[Lakhota]

I also I think that order 66 would have been more dramatic if Anakin hunted down the Jedi knights, directed by the Emperor. If they would have shown how dangerous, menacing and powerful Darth Vader was, it could have set up everybody's hatred for him in the original trilogy.
sent from my R2 unit

 

[NASEDO]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

I blame Lucas, he became a Horrible Director. Natalie Portman was a piece of wood acting, now she's an Oscar winner. And Darth Vader saying Noooo! at the end ruins Vaders Legacy.

Star Wars is so cool I like the Prequels, but Lucas did a piss poor job on his end. So glad he's gone.

 

[Khonsu70]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

I also I think that order 66 would have been more dramatic if Anakin hunted down the Jedi knights, directed by the Emperor. If they would have shown how dangerous, menacing and powerful Darth Vader was, it could have set up everybody's hatred for him in the original trilogy.
sent from my R2 unit

Problem with this was: Lucas fooled around so much in Episodes I and II with no real sense of urgency (let's take a break for a 10 minute pod race!) that when it came time for Episode III, which is where the bulk of Anakin's story needed to be told, he didn't have enough time to do it! (Even Lucas has stated this in interviews) He could have easily condensed the relevant events of Episodes I and II into 1 movie and spread the events of Episode III over 2 movies that encompassed everything from the end of the clone wars (without an order 66 montage), to Anakin turning to the Dark Side in a manner that felt less rushed and forced, to Yoda actually being hunted by clones, to the early formation of the rebellion, to the big duel on Mustafar, to the Jedi purge. It could have been epic in scope.

I know this is off topic for this thread, but I'm hoping those now in charge have been taking notes on the constructive criticisms of fans, recognize that these criticism aren't mere "fanboy whining" (as Lucas inferred), and commit to not repeating the mistakes of the past 20 years. If Lucas had a mortal sin (other than being a wooden writer with little directorial sense), it's been his stubborn ego and steadfast refusal to acknowledge that anyone other than himself could possibly have any insight into what's best for his creation, with which he obviously became disenchanted years ago.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

All of TPM could have been summed up in an opening scroll.

 

[IrishJedi]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

All of TPM could have been summed up in an opening scroll.

Been saying that since 1999.

 

[RavenEye]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

Honestly I like all 6 films with my own interests... namely clones because I'm a cloneaholic...

I really see no point anymore for a 7th film... Sure I'd like to see one, but how far can ya go to bringing "Balance to the Force" as Lucas called it... Just seems to cheesy to say the least. Ntm I think it's fair to say we all would have waited a couple of years for Lucas to get his stories on the prequels right. However... That time has passed now...

Unless Disney redoes the whole saga like they do with many films nowadays...

 

[Khonsu70]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

All of TPM could have been summed up in an opening scroll.

Still think the major plot points surrounding Anakin from TMP (Shmi, the slavery, the force ability - minus the midichlorians -,the piloting skills, the desire to help others, the hesitancy of the Jedi to train him) could have made a good act 1 for a film, to establish the character/story (also to set up a love triangle between Anakin/Obi Wan/Padme - would have gone a looong way toward establishing Anakin's fall to the Dark Side). That's the stuff from the first film that was important to the saga.

Oh well.

 

[pixletwin]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

I have always felt that the clone wars should have begun at the end of Ep1, with the bulk of them in Ep 2 with Anakins fall at the end, thus leaving Ep3 to deal with Vader taking down Jedi.

 

[VintijDroidGutzz]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (2015) Discussion Thread

Yeah.. while TPM can be extremely annoying at times, I still love it.

That said - I too could've done without all the little Ani stuff, & rather they start an older Anakin off at a point where he's already out there mixing it up - flying ships (with purpose), getting into scrapes, already somewhat force sensitive, having his rep precede him so to speak - on his way basically, without getting the opportunity to take that 'step into a larger world'.

Despite all the sympathizing / justifying out there, I cannot STAND the Gungan stuff - there's not enough I can say about that. Another wtf Uncle George green light fiasco. Anyway..

The stronger aspects of TPM & AOTC could've been merged skillfully into one film.. yeah.

 

[IrishJedi]

I have always felt that the clone wars should have begun at the end of Ep1, with the bulk of them in Ep 2 with Anakins fall at the end, thus leaving Ep3 to deal with Vader taking down Jedi.

Yup. And that's pretty much what most of us expected for 20+ years. Then Lucas dropped his Cleveland Steamers on us.

 

[Lakhota]

Yup. And that's pretty much what most of us expected for 20+ years. Then Lucas dropped his Cleveland Steamers on us.

Its amazing how out of touch Lucas was with the Star Wars community.
I guess it was "HIS" story and we could all be arrogant thinking it should had been written a different way. I still don't understand where his love for technology outweighed the storytelling.
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