Star Wars: The Force Awakens (12/18/15)

[jye4ever]

Yo Momma Honky

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

In her first encounter with Kylo she is totally defeated, captured, then mocked. In the moment that she faces Kylo in the forest she's once again the only person in her universe. Han is dead, Chewie and Finn appeared to be gone as well.

And then she totally dominated him and reversed the metal probing.

Skill level and abilities are all relative to what the characters have to endure. She may be way more powerful than Han, Leia, let's even say Luke in his early years yet she suffered much more than any of those characters did in ROTJ

By the time Luke and Leia get to ROTJ they had suffer more than Rey though. Leia alone saw her planet and all her loves ones destroyed by the DS in ANH, by ROTJ, she had lost Han, and was a sex slave to a giant slug monster. People overlook it because she showed no psychological trauma and it wasn't well developed, but I'm pretty sure she endured more than Rey. The same can be said about Luke, who lost all his love ones by the end of ANH.

 

[Khev]

By the time Luke and Leia get to ROTJ they had suffer more than Rey though.

Doesn't matter. ROTJ was its own film and needed its own arcs and trials for the characters to endure to justify its own existence. ESB didn't coast on past trials from the previous film, and neither should have Jedi. If people want to say "Luke's arc in his first movie was stronger than Rey's first movie" then fine. I get that. But to just dismiss Rey as a character because of how capable she is is a double standard unless you're someone like DiFabio who also dismisses ROTJ.

 

[Victοr]

But like superheroes she's likeable. She's lonely and abandoned and when she finally gets a father figure she has to suffer the heartbreak of watching him die a few hours later. In her first encounter with Kylo she is totally defeated, captured, then mocked. In the moment that she faces Kylo in the forest she's once again the only person in her universe. Han is dead, Chewie and Finn appeared to be gone as well.

Not all superheroes are likeable. When we meet Stark, he's an arrogant warmongering arsehole, who gets what was always coming to him, and then spends the majority of his career fighting Communists. Parker is a nerd, yes, but everytime people approach him, he acts like a condescending arsehole. Logan is a perv. Thor's whole gist is that he was so arrogant, he was banished from Asgard. Mr. Fantastic was a sexist "gentleman" for most of his early days. Point is, they all have very clear flaws that carried over from their FAs and onwards.

Compare that to Rey, who, let's recap:

1) Fixes the Falcon when Han couldn't.
2) Flies the Falcon and evades Imperial Forces, essentially saving Finn.
3) Impresses Han so much, he offers her a job on the Falcon, hours after having met her.
4) Withstands Kylo's mind probing, and actually probes his mind.
5) Uses the Jedi Mind Trick on a Stormtrooper.
6) Is "called" by Luke's LightSaber.
7) Completely annihilates Kylo.
8) Gets to fly the Falcon alongside Chewie, Han's best friend, who saw his co-pilot die a day before, tops.
9) Gets hugged by Leia and shares an emotional moment with her.
10) Finn, the other protagonist, falls for her.
11) Kylo says that she is far too powerful with the Force, something that Snoke notes.
12) Finds her way around the Base and escapes capture.

She gets nothing wrong in the entire flick. She has no flaws, whatsoever. And no, a sad backstory doesn't equal a "flaw". Real characters have only a niche. Let's look at some famous heroes who are Gary Stus at certain points:

1) Iron Man: A friendless capitalist who constantly struggles with alcoholism and depression. Nobody trusts him, nobody likes him, and he's good at just one thing, engineering. He's too prideful to ask for help, and more often than not, that comes to bite him in the arse. Apart from that, he has a niche (tech) and he operates within it. He gets the odd feat or two in an even, but most of his feats have to do with armours.

2) Batman: A paranoid rich guy with a God complex, who's way too vulnerable when his parents are mentioned. As per King's & Snyder's retcons, he tried to commit suicide and after that, kill Joe Chill. Continuing from there, he reraly has any real friends besides Superman and maybe Diana, as even his wards abandon him in the end. He has been raped by Talia and now is caring for their son, and his one true love is Catwoman, who has 237 counts of murder. He gets the uber-OP feats here and there, but they mostly have to do with planning. You won't see him going against Sinestro anytime soon.

3) Spider-Man: Poor guy from Queens who's so arrogant, that he shuts off completely because one jock makes fun of him. The rest of the gang always tries to approach him, but he just brushes them off. More often than not, he gets his ass kicked, and he manages to win by exploiting a weakness or getting the drop on his enemies. He's gotten a huge intelligence boost in recent years, but he still has a niche, as you won't see him fighting cosmic entities.

As you can see, there are many characters who excel at wha they do, but that happened after years of publication and it's in just one category. Most of the time they have many other character flaws that keep them interesting. Rey on the other hand, has none. She's the Uber Powerful Force User (Luke), she's the great engineer (Anakin), she's the awesome pilot that one person falls for (Han), and she's liked by virtually everyone. Even by SW standards that's way too much!

Skill level and abilities are all relative to what the characters have to endure. She may be way more powerful than Han, Leia, let's even say Luke in his early years yet she suffered much more than any of those characters did in ROTJ. So being gifted doesn't harm a character as long as they face sufficient trials. That's how it works with superheroes and it worked with Rey.

Nope, sorry, I can't agree here. Rey started off with her stats at 7/10 in every single category. Batman didn't start with an IQ of 250. Spider-Man didn't start with complete control over his Spider-Sense. The dude was running out of web-fluid every other issue! Iron Man started off in a bulky suit that looked like a kid's cardboard creation. Logan started as an ugly, pervy, killer with a fairly average healing factor. These characters became OP after decades of their universes becoming stranger and more extreme.

Rey is the very definition of a Mary Sue. At least IMO.

 

[Khev]

Nope, sorry, I can't agree here. Rey started off with her stats at 7/10 in every single category. Batman didn't start with an IQ of 250.

Both Rey and Bruce started as traumatized kids, not super badasses. We actually see her being manhandled by Unkar Plutt as a little girl. She wasn't fighting him off and kicking ass. The film implies that all of her non-Force skills are acquired while she's alone on Jakku for roughly a decade where she has literally nothing else to do except hone her skills or starve. Of course that life is going to make her more capable than a kid who spends the same amount of time doing chores for a loving aunt and uncle and "wasting time with his friends" (Luke.)

All of her skills as a result of life on Jakku overlap. Learning what parts do what so she can scavenger the most valuable items. Reverse engineering speeders and ships as she takes them apart. Learning to fight to protect her stuff. Compared to Batman who somehow independently learns how to be the world's greatest detective AND martial artist AND pilot, three skills that could each take a lifetime to master and that have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

And I never said that a sad backstory equaled a "flaw."

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Doesn't matter. ROTJ was its own film and needed its own arcs and trials for the characters to endure to justify its own existence. ESB didn't coast on past trials from the previous film, and neither should have Jedi. If people want to say "Luke's arc in his first movie was stronger than Rey's first movie" then fine. I get that. But to just dismiss Rey as a character because of how capable she is is a double standard unless you're someone like DiFabio who also dismisses ROTJ.

But ROTJ is not its own film and Luke in that film is the result of everything that happened to him in the previous films, from his "training", to the physical and mental pain he has endured. It's all connected. Luke was still dealing with accepting Vader as his father, something that was introduced in the previous film. ROTJ is the final part of Luke and Vader's story. Besides, why would you compare Rey's first appearance to a third film? At least wait for EP9 to see Rey become The Phoenix or get the Infinity Gauntlet.

 

[Victοr]

Both Rey and Bruce started as traumatized kids. We actually see her being manhandled by Unkar Plutt as a little girl. She wasn't fighting him off and kicking ass. The film implies that all of her non-Force skills are acquired while she's alone on Jakku for roughly a decade where she has literally nothing else to do except hone her skills or starve. Of course that life is going to make her more capable than a kid who spends the same amount of time doing chores for a loving uncle and "wasting time with his friends" (Luke.)

That's not the point, as I never complained for her skills with her staff. But outshining every single character, impressing the entire cast, and then using the Force in ways nobody else in the entire canon has managed to do so at that age and with no training whatsoever, is a Mary Sue trait. I mean, look at that list over there! And like I said, compare her with the OP CB characters, and she vastly outclasses them.

 

[Victοr]

But ROTJ is not its own film and Luke in that film is the result of everything that happened to him in the previous films, from his "training", to the physical and mental pain he has endured. It's all connected. Luke was still dealing with accepting Vader as his father, something that was introduced in the previous film. ROTJ is the final part of Luke and Vader's story. Besides, why would you compare Rey's first appearance to a third film? At least wait for EP9 to see Rey become The Phoenix or get the Infinity Gauntlet.

The writers of TFA and of Modern Marvel could learn a lot about how to make a strong female character without making her a Mary Sue, by reading the Claremont X-Stuff.

 

[Khev]

Besides, why would you compare Rey's first appearance to a third film?

Because of the contrast. People complain that everything came too easy for Rey. And yet ROTJ, the third film of a trilogy (when stakes should be the absolute highest!) was a cakewalk for all of its heroes. I'm not saying that I thought she had a better arc than Luke in ANH or ESB, but she was certainly more fun to root for than anyone who sleepwalked through Jedi.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Not all superheroes are likeable. When we meet Stark, he's an arrogant warmongering arsehole, who gets what was always coming to him, and then spends the majority of his career fighting Communists. Parker is a nerd, yes, but everytime people approach him, he acts like a condescending arsehole. Logan is a perv. Thor's whole gist is that he was so arrogant, he was banished from Asgard. Mr. Fantastic was a sexist "gentleman" for most of his early days. Point is, they all have very clear flaws that carried over from their FAs and onwards.

Compare that to Rey, who, let's recap:

1) Fixes the Falcon when Han couldn't.
2) Flies the Falcon and evades Imperial Forces, essentially saving Finn.
3) Impresses Han so much, he offers her a job on the Falcon, hours after having met her.
4) Withstands Kylo's mind probing, and actually probes his mind.
5) Uses the Jedi Mind Trick on a Stormtrooper.
6) Is "called" by Luke's LightSaber.
7) Completely annihilates Kylo.
8) Gets to fly the Falcon alongside Chewie, Han's best friend, who saw his co-pilot die a day before, tops.
9) Gets hugged by Leia and shares an emotional moment with her.
10) Finn, the other protagonist, falls for her.
11) Kylo says that she is far too powerful with the Force, something that Snoke notes.
12) Finds her way around the Base and escapes capture.

She gets nothing wrong in the entire flick. She has no flaws, whatsoever. And no, a sad backstory doesn't equal a "flaw". Real characters have only a niche. Let's look at some famous heroes who are Gary Stus at certain points.

See, I wouldn't have a problem with Rey being great, if the film acknowledged she was the "chosen one" like Neo. Although, even Neo failed plenty before he officially became the "One", but we were expecting greatness from him because it was the prophesy.

The same can be said about Anakin being great. He was a great mechanic, the only human who could beat aliens at pod racing which means he was the best pilot, he built C3PO, and eventually flew a ship at the end of the film and helped the good guys win the war...and he was like 9 years old....but the film at least tells you that he's special...he's the "ONE"...but with Rey, it's like she's just as great as Anakin, but the film wants us to believe that she's really not, imo.

 

[Khev]

Rey also didn't defeat Kylo in an even lightsaber duel. He was massively wounded and had just received instructions from Snoke to bring her in alive. That gave him a serious handicap in their duel. Kylo could have finished her off multiple times had he wanted to.

 

[jye4ever]

I'm team Khev when it comes to Rey of Steel.

I get to a point with Rey's power growth where I just have fun with her character instead of allowing myself to get all irritated over it.

Sometimes I choose to use my analytical on/off switch and just enjoy the ride.

 

[ShadowX81]

Rey also didn't defeat Kylo in an even lightsaber duel. He was massively wounded and had just received instructions from Snoke to bring her in alive. That gave him a serious handicap in their duel. Kylo could have finished her off multiple times had he wanted to.

You mean like Darth Vader in ESB? Where Luke did end up getting owned and losing a limb?

If Kylo really had the ability to beat her had he wanted to, he should have the second she demonstrated skill. Not let her beat him.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Because of the contrast. People complain that everything came too easy for Rey. And yet ROTJ, the third film of a trilogy (when stakes should be the absolute highest!) was a cakewalk for all of its heroes. I'm not saying that I thought she had a better arc than Luke in ANH or ESB, but she was certainly more fun to root for than anyone who sleepwalked through Jedi.

I understand your point. You're just comparing Rey in TFA to Luke and Leia in this one particular film, ROTJ. But what I'm saying is, maybe people didn't have a problem with the heroes having a cakewalk in ROTJ because they had already seen these characters endured a lot in the previous films, so when they're watching ROTJ, they're not just looking at it as an isolated story or film, but as the culmination of everything they've seen before. Rey doesn't have that connection with the audience yet.

 

[jye4ever]

The argument against her is not wrong, I mean she even survived being slammed against a tree and the fall.

But I also see that Disney has something special planned for her character.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

You mean like Darth Vader in ESB? Where Luke did end up getting owned and losing a limb?

If Kylo really had the ability to beat her had he wanted to, he should have the second she demonstrated skill. Not let her beat him.

Kylo could have choked both Rey and Finn...or at least Finn quickly.

He could have killed Finn easily and stopped Rey before she turned into a Super Saiyan

 

[Khev]

You mean like Darth Vader in ESB? Where Luke did end up getting owned and losing a limb?

Why would their fight need to mirror another duel with vastly different participants?

If Kylo really had the ability to beat her had he wanted to, he should have the second she demonstrated skill. Not let her beat him.

He did "demonstrate the skill" until she pushed back on the cliff. Then, and only then, did she have him on the ropes so to speak. From that point on he was so wounded and flustered that he was indeed fighting to win and lost. But it was only in those final moments. He could have taken her at any point before then.

 

[Khev]

I'm team Khev when it comes to Rey of Steel.

I get to a point with Rey's power growth where I just have fun with her character instead of allowing myself to get all irritated over it.

Sometimes I choose to use my analytical on/off switch and just enjoy the ride.

I do like that she's a new kind of "Chosen One" whether in name or not. She isn't just a retread of boy wonder Jake Lloyd. And to me her power level didn't undermine the coolness of anyone else, not even Kylo. I thought he was a great and conflicted bad guy who lost through an organic chain of misfortune.

maybe people didn't have a problem with the heroes having a cakewalk in ROTJ because they had already seen these characters endured a lot in the previous films, so when they're watching ROTJ, they're not just looking at it as an isolated story or film, but as the culmination of everything they've seen before. Rey doesn't have that connection with the audience yet.

Fair enough. But in some ways to me ROTJ commits a greater sin in not following through on the promises of ANH/ESB and the fact that it merely coasts on those previous flims is more frustrating that Rey not "earning" (if that's how you want to put it) the audience's appreciation of her abilities. Beats the hell out of her saying "Let's try swinging my saber in a circle, that's a good trick!"

 

[Victοr]

See, I wouldn't have a problem with Rey being great, if the film acknowledged she was the "chosen one" like Neo. Although, even Neo failed plenty before he officially became the "One", but we were expecting greatness from him because it was the prophesy.

The same can be said about Anakin being great. He was a great mechanic, the only human who could beat aliens at pod racing which means he was the best pilot, he built C3PO, and eventually flew a ship at the end of the film and helped the good guys win the war...and he was like 9 years old....but the film at least tells you that he's special...he's the "ONE"...but with Rey, it's like she's just as great as Anakin, but the film wants us to believe that she's really not, imo.

Nah, Anakin may have been a Gary Stu, but apart from TPM, he didn't get any feats. C-3PO I'm not counting, since we don't know how hard it's supposed to be. AI seems to be common in the SW univese, so it's the equilavent of a kid building his own PC. Admirable, but for someone who grew up in a hardware store, hardly of great importance. The Pod-Race I'll give it to you.

Apart from that, he gets his ass handed to him by Dooku ala Luke, and that after 10+ years of training. In ROTS he gets back at Dooku, with the help of Obi-Wan, and then gets completely annihilated by Kenobi in the end. For a Chosen One, he has pretty lousy feats. Compared to him, Rey is like a Force God or something.

Rey also didn't defeat Kylo in an even lightsaber duel. He was massively wounded and had just received instructions from Snoke to bring her in alive. That gave him a serious handicap in their duel. Kylo could have finished her off multiple times had he wanted to.

You mean like Darth Vader in ESB? Where Luke did end up getting owned and losing a limb?

If Kylo really had the ability to beat her had he wanted to, he should have the second she demonstrated skill. Not let her beat him.

This. Luke, with training by Obi-Wan and Yoda gets manhandled by Vader, who just wanted to get reunited with him, and had been searching for him for quite a while. From the canon Marvel Books, Vader employed Boba quite early, and knew who Luke ways shortly after the Death Star explosion.

Meanwhile, Rey, with no training, no experience and having touched a saber for the first time, kicks Kylo's ass.

 

[DiFabio]

In Jedi Luke's plan to rescue Han from Jabba backfires, his mind tricks don't work on Jabba and Jabba laughs at him. After being humiliated, he's tricked by Jabba and almost eaten by one of his pets. He gets captured and gets his hand blown off. He gets thrown off his bike and nearly killed by a scout trooper. He's told that he must face and kill his father despite not wanting to. He gets captured by little stuffed teddy bears. He can't convince his father to join him and he gets fried by the Emperor and would have died if Vader didn't intervene.

I may think ROTJ is weak and started all the problems people have with the prequels, but I don't think it was a cake walk for Luke.

Like Prince said, that Luke was a culmination of three films and he still had flaws and weaknesses. I mean hell, just compare the whole mind trick scenes. In Jedi, Luke can't even mind trick a space slut. The look on his face when Jabba starts laughing at him and the panic he goes into when he runs out of ideas and desperately goes for a blaster says it all. Now, compare that to Awakens where Rey fails to mind trick the trooper (despite never having an "Obi-Wan" to show her the technique), only to try multiple times and have it somehow work. That's ridiculous. As stated before, there's also this gross smugness that comes from the character (we need a pilot/"we got one", the disdain she has for Han when he gives her a blaster, etc.). Luke is much more vulnerable and relatable in comparison. There's not even an argument.

The fact that so many people have equated Rey of being a Mary Sue has got to count for something. It can't just be written off when there's clearly something there that people are seeing. A criticism like that just doesn't come out of no where and snow ball into what it has, especially when people have backed it up with so many examples.

As for Batman and the other superheroes. Batman has been around for a whopping 78 years and has hundreds if not thousands of different interpretations under his belt, it's easy to cherry pick certain stories where he's not flawed. Rey? That character is barely a year old. They're not even in the same league. Of course you're going to have stories where Batman is grossly overpowered. Besides, you look at everything Batman has done in his almost 80 year run vs. what Rey did in the past 12 months and she could probably turn Batman into a brain dead vegetable, assuming she was merciful enough to even keep him alive.



Other iconic superheroes? Go look at Spider-Man's run of stories from the 60s-70s or go watch Spider-Man 2 and tell me he's an all powerful, loved and worshipped by everyone, Mary Sue.