Star Wars: The Force Awakens (12/18/15)

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

PT make Jedi seem like a great movie, just like recent Die Hard movies make Die Hard 2 seem great.

But back in 83, man the hate was strong against Jedi due to those little critters.

 

[VintijDroidGutzz]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

In that doco Empire Of Dreams, Howard Kazanjian seems to think that it was he that told George 'Return' was a weak title..

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I guess my interpretation of that title was that the Jedi--broadly speaking--return in that film, at the end, when Luke finally understands and embodies the Jedi spirit. Prior to that, the only remaining Jedis in the story were Obi Wan and Yoda, right? But they were both has-beens and hermits, so they hardly counted anymore. Luke finally discovers what it means to be a Jedi, and now the spirit of the Jedi can help protect the poor slobs of the universe, he can help develop new Jedi to assist his efforts, and fulfill their objectives after he dies, etc. But considering George initially intended the title to be "Revenge" my assumption was probably off-base

Considering he was technically a Jedi during Jabba's Palace, I'd say he was, well, a Jedi. I know Yoda in his half dazed, cross eyed, dying breath says the only way Luke can be a true Jedi is if he confronts Vader, but that's sort of ********. How isn't he one? There's a huge jump from the Luke we see in Empire to the Luke we see in Jedi. He made his own lightsaber, has new force powers, he seems wiser, etc. Even his decisions before even facing off against Vader are noble. So he knew before hand what it meant to be a "Jedi" until he's pushed by Vader and Palps who won't stop buggin' him. So yeah, he's a frickin' Jedi.

Return nothin'. In Star Wars, there's Ben. In Empire, there's Yoda. In Jedi, there's Luke and Yoda (until Yoda bites it).

Besides, "crossing" over or "being turned" is stupid. Even if Luke chopped Vader's head off, who's to say he wouldn't (or couldn't) resist the Emperor? That's what I always found dull. What enticement is there in these types of scenarios? The Emperor is always like, "yo dawg, join me and stand by my side". What? What if I just kill Vader, kill the Emperor, and want to be "good" (i.e. don't become an evil dictator, support the Rebels, Republic and Democracy)? So what, if I lash out a bit I'll get Sith eyes and can't go into the "light side", huh? It never made sense. It's especially ludicrous when the Emperor and Vader's motives are dead set against what Luke is trying to achieve. They just threatened his good buddies, his friends. They're taunting him saying they're trapped, going to die, and that maybe they can turn one of them. Uhhh, why would I want to join them again?

It's especially evident in the Prequels. Like with Dooku. Anakin just chopped the guys' hands off, Dooku is clearly beaten/frightened. You won Anakin! This guy is pissin' in his pants. You don't kill him and his life will be even worse. He even knows he shouldn't when Palps is egging him on. But . . . he does it. Whaaaat? Then Palps tells him to leave his best friend behind to die. Whaaaaaaaaat? Kill that old ****. Granted, later on Palpatine pulls off the old "I can save your wife bro" after some weird, backwards *** reasoning like "go kill innocent kids, then I'll show you", but still. What does this old, wrinkly bastard EVER have to offer? Unless you're an idiot, the dark side is pretty damn stupid. You'd have to be an idiot to "give in". Why the **** didn't Vader grab up Palpatine earlier in his life? As soon as Palpatine was like, "yo, she's dead", Vader should have grabbed him up then and there for manipulating him. But nah. Stupid. Video games and EU **** do the same crap. The offer that the "dark side" always presents is some kind of BS that can clearly ruin you, and yet, the person making the decision is having a difficult time deciding?

And as far as Prequels go, the Jedi and their council isn't any better. There are times where Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda, etc. aren't being as heroic as they "should" be as far as the rules are concerned. They all have this weird lifestyle and are easily duped by a couple of emo *******s. Even Qui-Gon wasn't buying what they were selling.


**** the light and dark side,

 

[pixletwin]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

PT make Jedi seem like a great movie, just like recent Die Hard movies make Die Hard 2 seem great.

But back in 83, man the hate was strong against Jedi due to those little critters.

I don't recall any anti-Ewok sentiment until kids my age were a bit older.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Considering he was technically a Jedi during Jabba's Palace, I'd say he was, well, a Jedi.

Well he looked like a Jedi, and Jabba may have called him one. He may have called himself one. But that doesn't mean he really was one. Yoda said he had to confront Vader to become a Jedi. He did, Vader kicked his ***, Luke goes home licking his wounds. My assumption is that he wasn't really a Jedi at that point, though maybe that was Lucas's intention My own interpretation of these films is only loosely influenced by the intentions of the filmmakers I guess. I assume Lucas was really referring to the confrontation in Jedi.

I know Yoda in his half dazed, cross eyed, dying breath says the only way Luke can be a true Jedi is if he confronts Vader, but that's sort of ********. How isn't he one? There's a huge jump from the Luke we see in Empire to the Luke we see in Jedi. He made his own lightsaber, has new force powers, he seems wiser, etc. Even his decisions before even facing off against Vader are noble.

But all that stuff was fairly superficial. It takes more than wearing the weapons and being a noble spirit to be a Jedi in my opinion. He hadn't actually overcome the temptation that Yoda was referring to.

Besides, "crossing" over or "being turned" is stupid. Even if Luke chopped Vader's head off, who's to say he wouldn't (or couldn't) resist the Emperor? That's what I always found dull. What enticement is there in these types of scenarios? The Emperor is always like, "yo dawg, join me and stand by my side". What? What if I just kill Vader, kill the Emperor, and want to be "good" (i.e. don't become an evil dictator, support the Rebels, Republic and Democracy)? So what, if I lash out a bit I'll get Sith eyes and can't go into the "light side", huh? It never made sense. It's especially ludicrous when the Emperor and Vader's motives are dead set against what Luke is trying to achieve. They just threatened his good buddies, his friends. They're taunting him saying they're trapped, going to die, and that maybe they can turn one of them. Uhhh, why would I want to join them again?

In the real world, using real people as an example, I don't disagree with you. But in the logic of the films, it made sense to me. For that reality, a character like Luke had to overcome that temptation at that moment in time. And he did. He had the power (which he didn't have in Empire) and motive to kill and destroy, but he didn't. It's a kind of general metaphor for the influence of power on man. If you can turn the other way, then you demonstrate true strength, and the Jedi skills and abilities he had developed prior to that point were finally able to be used in the way they were intended. It's like an epiphany, a religious conversion. As such, he is no longer just a guy with funky weapons and a few psychic powers, but a Jedi.

I don't acknowledge these prequels you speak of, so I can't speak to them.

 

[pixletwin]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I don't acknowledge these prequels you speak of, so I can't speak to them.

No offense, but this attitude comes off as so completely nerd pretentious. How can you expect to have a conversation which requires an understanding of the entire canon? If you are only going into a discussion with your own personal head canon, who is going to care what you have to say? It's like having a civics discussion with someone who only acknowledges changes to the constitution which were made before 1861.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Well he looked like a Jedi, and Jabba may have called him one. He may have called himself one. But that doesn't mean he really was one. Yoda said he had to confront Vader to become a Jedi. He did, Vader kicked his ***, Luke goes home licking his wounds. My assumption is that he wasn't really a Jedi at that point, though maybe that was Lucas's intention My own interpretation of these films is only loosely influenced by the intentions of the filmmakers I guess. I assume Lucas was really referring to the confrontation in Jedi.


But all that stuff was fairly superficial. It takes more than wearing the weapons and being a noble spirit to be a Jedi in my opinion. He hadn't actually overcome the temptation that Yoda was referring to.


In the real world, using real people as an example, I don't disagree with you. But in the logic of the films, it made sense to me. For that reality, a character like Luke had to overcome that temptation at that moment in time. And he did. He had the power (which he didn't have in Empire) and motive to kill and destroy, but he didn't. It's a kind of general metaphor for the influence of power on man. If you can turn the other way, then you demonstrate true strength, and the Jedi skills and abilities he had developed prior to that point were finally able to be used in the way they were intended. It's like an epiphany, a religious conversion. As such, he is no longer just a guy with funky weapons and a few psychic powers, but a Jedi.

I don't acknowledge these prequels you speak of, so I can't speak to them.

Yeah, but Luke, even on Endor, refused to kill his dad. It's not some revelation, it was something he was always going to do. He was dead set against it. He's the same Luke he was in the beginning the film, there's not some huge character arc. He didn't want to be put into a situation that meant him killing his dad. How is that not "Jedi-like"? Even when he's talking with him in person, before the Emperor, he's handling it fine.

So, yeah he didn't want to kill his dad! He told the Jedi that, he told Vader that. He wants his dad to stop the BS and side with him. Nothing has changed. He's confronted his dad, but to no avail. He's even willing to die. That still stands all throughout. Then the Emperor ****s with him. I don't care if someone is pure of heart or a monster, everyone would try to take a lightsaber to the Emperor's head after all the provoking **** he said. Luke just keeps on getting egged on continually, but his answer is always no.

What's even stranger is Vader. His plan is to kill Palpatine right? Overthrow him and rule the galaxy with his son? Okay, why didn't he let Luke strike him down right then and there? Why deflect that? Does Vader like being this weird slave to the Emperor? This pet? I mean, Palpatine is saying right in front of him that he wants Luke to kill Vader and join him. Vader's a smart guy in Star Wars, the way he converses about the force (seems just as respectful and knowledgeable about the Force as Ben or Yoda, especially with his view on the Death Star). Empire? He's intelligent there too. So again, I have to ask, what is so enticing about going with the Emperor here? Is there really even a temptation? No? Luke is not once tempted. I guess you could say he lost it a bit when he goes beserk on Vader, but he never actually lost it. He did exactly what he said he'd do on Dagobah, Endor, etc. That he wouldn't kill his dad. Nothing changed.

Even though I like the moment, I always wondered if it would have been "bad" if Luke just refused to kill Vader, said he'd never join the Emperor and approached Palpatine with his lightsaber (to chop his block off) instead of, you know, casting it aside and getting electrocuted. Luke would have been ****ed if Vader wavered over the decision (that should have been a no brainier in the beginning considering Luke was, ya know, blood). From what Jedi shows, there is nothing enticing about the dark side, especially when your master comes out and tells you that you're easily replaceable and he's constantly looking for a newer, better apprentice. I guess you can get some electricity and royal guards, but eh, what's so great about those? Luke had an X-Wing and a green lightsaber.



And I agree, **** the prequels.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I don't recall any anti-Ewok sentiment until kids my age were a bit older.

I don't remember being particularly thrilled with them, and I was 10.

 

[pixletwin]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I don't remember being particularly thrilled with them, and I was 10.

I thought the toys were cool looking. Especially Logray (or whatever his name is).

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I thought the toys were cool looking. Especially Logray (or whatever his name is).

I always thought he looked like my mom's coat.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I don't remember being particularly thrilled with them, and I was 10.

I was 16.

I hated those ****ers!

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Nobody liked Ewoks. Not then, not now.

 

[pixletwin]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I liked Ewoks. They still don't bother me. It is what it is.

 

[automaton]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

imagine if Return of the Jedi had utilized the Wookies... we would be still complaining about all the Holiday Special second rate costumes. instead if Wicket, there would be Lumpy...

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I was 16.

I hated those ****ers!

Jye is older than Nam? Intradasting.

I was just about 1.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Yeah, but Luke, even on Endor, refused to kill his dad. It's not some revelation, it was something he was always going to do. He was dead set against it. He's the same Luke he was in the beginning the film, there's not some huge character arc. He didn't want to be put into a situation that meant him killing his dad. How is that not "Jedi-like"? Even when he's talking with him in person, before the Emperor, he's handling it fine.

But Yoda seemed to infer that he had to face that specific situation. And in that situation was a pressure, which didn't exist until Luke was in a position of power, and was blood-thirsty, as all that Vader had done came to the surface. Vader's behavior reflects that of someone whose identity is pretty firmly established as secondary to the Emperor. It's another thing about human nature, we tend to fall into roles that become part of our identity. Vader breaking out of that role was another significant change for him of course.

No offense, but this attitude comes off as so completely nerd pretentious. How can you expect to have a conversation which requires an understanding of the entire canon? If you are only going into a discussion with your own personal head canon, who is going to care what you have to say? It's like having a civics discussion with someone who only acknowledges changes to the constitution which were made before 1861.

No offense, but it's equally "nerd" pretentious to assume that everyone should acknowledge the entirety of a franchise just because they think everyone should. There is no rule on high that says "all of George's films and associated universe are part of a unified whole--acknowledge them all or be a pretentious nerd." I make no qualms about discussing this as my own perception, regarding a specific sub-set of all existing Star Wars media that don't suck. Just like I wouldn't necessarily refer to every incarnation of Batman in a discussion about him. And I personally don't rank Hollywood fiction as analogous to discussions of genuinely important historical issues, so I don't see your analogy as relevant. If you think what I'm saying has no relevance to you, then please feel free to ignore it.

 

[lerath666]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

No offense, but this attitude comes off as so completely nerd pretentious. How can you expect to have a conversation which requires an understanding of the entire canon? If you are only going into a discussion with your own personal head canon, who is going to care what you have to say? It's like having a civics discussion with someone who only acknowledges changes to the constitution which were made before 1861.

There is a certian degree of irony related to the EU here.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

I liked Ewoks. They still don't bother me. It is what it is.

Maybe I was a weird kid, but I preferred the Stormtroopers, Rebels and soldiers from the films. I always thought that natives like Ewoks were dumb and overused, even as a kid. Now Sandpeople, Jawas? Those guys were great. The battle of Hoth was compelling enough without it's inhabitants running around causing trouble. It would have been stupid as **** if the Rebels somehow had 3PO converse with the Wampas, and then they all teamed up with the Rebels to take down the Empire.

Atleast with Wampas though, I could actually believe they could do it. Not little midget teddy bears that are as frightening as a Jawa or Ugnaught. Well, except this fella he's what resides in nightmares,

Don't get me wrong, I like the message that a strong will or nature can over come the machinery and tyranny of an empire, but there had to be better ways of conveying that. When you look back at it, the Ewoks were only there to sell toys, stuffed, plush dolls and push the likes of "The Ewok Adventure" tv series. So yeah, it is what it is.

 

[lerath666]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

Nobody liked Ewoks. Not then, not now.

I LOVED the Ewoks as a kid. And i don't hate them today either. Yes, theyre a little goofy, but it's an alien universe. Who's to say what those aliens should look like.
I'm pretty sure it was just trendy for "teh oldar Kidz" to hate on them back in the day, and on some level they still think it's "Kool to doo".

 

[pixletwin]

Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (12/18/15) Discussion Thread

No offense, but it's equally "nerd" pretentious to assume that everyone should acknowledge the entirety of a franchise just because they think everyone should. There is no rule on high that says "all of George's films and associated universe are part of a unified whole--acknowledge them all or be a pretentious nerd." I make no qualms about discussing this as my own perception, regarding a specific sub-set of all existing Star Wars media that don't suck. Just like I wouldn't necessarily refer to every incarnation of Batman in a discussion about him. And I personally don't rank Hollywood fiction as analogous to discussions of genuinely important historical issues, so I don't see your analogy as relevant. If you think what I'm saying has no relevance to you, then please feel free to ignore it.

You can't compare rebooted franchises that aren't intended to have any linear continuity (ala Batman) with a franchise like Star Wars that is telling ONE story in ONE universe. Your analogy has fail. My analogy was completely applicable. You just have your head buried too far under the sand to acknowledge it. I think what you say has no relevance and I choose to comment on it rather than ignore it.