Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[YoNoSe]

The history of SW villainy is pretty impractical - extremely disciplined military bureaucracy executing manical plans of hideous worlocks.

How come it never works?!

 

[jal76]

I really didn't expect anyone to actually read my ridiculously-long post, but since you did, I'm glad that you enjoyed it. And I greatly appreciate your positive feedback about it. Thank you.

I understand your hesitancy about reading these ST threads because the hate has a way of being frustrating (and often getting personal), but I don't have a problem with the differences of opinion. I know that I frustrate PT fans too when I share my opinion of those prequel movies, so I see it much the same way when I hear/read TLJ criticism. Like you, I don't participate in other online discussions about this stuff. This board is it for me because it combines the movie side with the collectibles side. I like reading the thoughts of this specific community, even when I disagree completely.

There's no easy way to criticize something that you strongly object to without making people feel like you're ridiculing them for liking what you think was stupid garbage. That's just the way it goes; we often have to deal with opposing points of view that come across strongly enough to be irritating because those views pertain to subjects that we care a lot about. I'm okay with it because I think echo chambers are boring and unproductive.

Difference of opinion and civil debate are good. But I definitely understand your point about being frustrated when civility is absent because people just want to rant about something that pisses them off.

I came to it a day late and was happy to read the entire thing. Excellent post that really does a great job of capturing a perspective that a lot of people have trouble swallowing. Just as there are people who genuinely hate the movie for very strong reasons there are a whole bunch of other people who LOVE the movie (including myself) for equally strong reasons. Thanks for doing such a great job of putting that sentiment into words.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

I came to it a day late and was happy to read the entire thing. Excellent post that really does a great job of capturing a perspective that a lot of people have trouble swallowing. Just as there are people who genuinely hate the movie for very strong reasons there are a whole bunch of other people who LOVE the movie (including myself) for equally strong reasons. Thanks for doing such a great job of putting that sentiment into words.

I wouldnt say the reasons for loving TLJ are equal to the reasons for hating it. People could list alot more reasons why its a complete failure as a star wars move then it is a success. We wouldn't be having the conversation if the majority of people liked TLJ, like they do the OT. I mean the OT is beloved for a reason, more people like those films then dislike them. There cannot be equally strong reasons for both hating and loving the OT if they are universally accepted (a lot more people love them then hate them) to be good movies. Don't get me wrong, if you like TLJ, its your opinion who cares what the majority of people think, but you could also say the same thing about BVS or Justice league- People who like those movies have very strong reasons for liking them, as do those that hate it but I wouldn't say they were equal. Alot of people love pizza, you may hate it and love brussel sprouts, good luck convincing the majority of people that brussel sprouts are better then pizza. Yes taste is subjective but the real question is when does subjective taste become more objectively measurable? I'd say when the majority of people agree on something its no longer a subjective experience in that its shared by a greater number of people. I fully understand this being a fan of the DCEU especially MoS, most people hate these films for very valid reasons so I cannot say my reasons for liking it are equally valid or strong to those that dislike it. Quite the contrary, If the majority of people think a movie is trash because it does not adhere to established canon or represent the characters properly its hard to argue with them in a way, or to convince the majority that you minority viewpoint is true. You don't have to change your mind, you definitely wont change their minds, instead accept the fact that you love a movie that the majority of other people think is bad, and even if it is a terrible movie, who gives a **** as long as you enjoy it.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I came to it a day late and was happy to read the entire thing. Excellent post that really does a great job of capturing a perspective that a lot of people have trouble swallowing. Just as there are people who genuinely hate the movie for very strong reasons there are a whole bunch of other people who LOVE the movie (including myself) for equally strong reasons. Thanks for doing such a great job of putting that sentiment into words.

Very kind of you; and very much appreciated. Thank you!

In this day and age, it's way too easy to form and frame a narrative by just being loud and persistent. The sad thing is that sometimes people start believing that the loud and persistent message is the actual truth because either: a.) they are fond of the messenger(s), or b.) they don't hear/read an equal number of loud and persistent opinions to the contrary.

As someone who is a fan of TLJ, I try to remind people that the loudest voices don't always represent a true majority opinion - or certainly don't always represent any sort of objective truth. Angry voices often want to be heard more than the satisfied/happy voices, and both sides tend to want to ignore what the other is saying. I believe in forming one's own opinion - but still considering opposing views - and then defending an informed opinion in a way where intelligent people can recognize the merits (even if still not completely agreeing).

At the end of the day, no one else's opinion matters. But there's no need to let people believe that their opinion amounts to some sort of fact/truth because no one challenged it by presenting an opposing view.

I wouldnt say the reasons for loving TLJ are equal to the reasons for hating it. People could list alot more reasons why its a complete failure as a star wars move then it is a success.

I would GLADLY be willing to do a back-and-forth enumeration of the reasons TLJ excelled versus the reasons someone could come up with for how it didn't. I guarantee you that I wouldn't have a problem coming up with an equal number (at the very least!).

Don't forget that we're merely talking about opinions here. There's a reason why they say that opinions are like a**holes: everybody has one, and everyone walks around like theirs doesn't stink as much as the rest of 'em out there.

There's no actual right or wrong with opinions, and even your example of a "majority" depends on context. Majority of who? Majority of critics? Or majority of fans? Who is more informed? Who matters more? I can find you fans that could make a great and compelling case for either side. Same with critics. But neither can claim to represent an actual truth.

 

[cerealkeller]

Luke Skywalker was given a chance to go from staring at twin suns with hope and longing, to staring at twin suns with sober reflection and hard-earned peace of mind. He'd grown up. He had gone from being the heir of both an Empire and the nearly-extinct Jedi legacy, to the destroyer of the Empire, and then to the inspiration of renewed hope among a new generation of Jedi. TLJ gave me a more decent and sensible explanation than I thought possible for what TFA established as Luke having deserted everyone for years. Luke had suffered a lot, he'd learned from the past, was trying to make things right, but had taken things a little too far. His master returned to set him straight, rekindle his hope, and remind him how Obi-Wan had shown the path to help and guide someone in a way that was "more powerful than you can possibly imagine." And now Luke is exactly that, and always will be!

After 34 years of waiting, I finally got a follow-up cinematic Star Wars experience that realized there was always more to this saga than "pew-pew" lasers, swooshing lightsabers, and supermen who could use magic to take down armies. I got a film that rightfully established that Luke had grown from novice, to Knight, to legendary Master. Leia had grown from passionate rebel who inherited leadership, to battle-worn mentor who was ready to pass the torch by way of poignant lessons (taught both by word and by deed). And a new group of heroes was learning to capitalize on the role they inherited. Gone from SW was the PT over-dependence on hollow CGI, hollow characterizations, unconvincing portrayals, and brutally-forced dialogue. Gone was TFA's over-reliance on familiar tropes and obsession with "cool" presentation. TLJ brought me more of what I wanted from a SW sequel (prequels included) than any film since the OT. It was far from perfect (still could've been damn close if not for a few misguided choices), but it was the more grown-up Star Wars that I'd hoped for d.

Man what a great post!!! I did read the entire thing and we must be the same age because I can relate to your point of view on everything you just stated. That includes finally getting a Star Wars film that feels like the first real film since Empire/ Jedi to expand the lore and give us new themes for our myth. Luke Skywalker was realized by a man who truly understood the character established in the OT, saw what would happen if he encountered such loss and have him a final send off that feels complete, logical and awe inspiring.

Don't the loud people who hate TLJ get you down. There are many who do not like it that have many good points, and yet remain civilized and respectful. And there are those of us who not just like but love TLJ. I don't post often but reading your lengthy explanation just kind of made my night so thank you for that [emoji482]


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[ajp4mgs]

Man what a great post!!! I did read the entire thing and we must be the same age because I can relate to your point of view on everything you just stated. That includes finally getting a Star Wars film that feels like the first real film since Empire/ Jedi to expand the lore and give us new themes for our myth. Luke Skywalker was realized by a man who truly understood the character established in the OT, saw what would happen if he encountered such loss and have him a final send off that feels complete, logical and awe inspiring.

Don't the loud people who hate TLJ get you down. There are many who do not like it that have many good points, and yet remain civilized and respectful. And there are those of us who not just like but love TLJ. I don't post often but reading your lengthy explanation just kind of made my night so thank you for that [emoji482]


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If we're the same age (I'm going to turn 42 very soon), that might indeed have something to do with how we see some of this the same way. I know that when you posted a while back about how you'd rate the movies in the whole SW saga, it lined up really closely with my own view. But then again, someone our age is probably reading this and thinking: "bull****! I hated the stupid movie!"

I wish you'd post more often, but I thank you very much for what you posted here. Means a lot to me. And we old guys gotta stick together.

 

[YoNoSe]

Even as a TLJ “hater” I think I could list more positives than negatives. It’s more about the weight than quantity for me. For example there’s the obviously divisive direction of Luke’s narrative but even within that it’s hard not to consider Hamill’s performance as a great element of the film.

TLJ is perhaps the most effected by subjectivity in the entire saga.

 

[cerealkeller]

If we're the same age (I'm going to turn 42 very soon), that might indeed have something to do with how we see some of this the same way. I know that when you posted a while back about how you'd rate the movies in the whole SW saga, it lined up really closely with my own view. But then again, someone our age is probably reading this and thinking: "bull****! I hated the stupid movie!"

I wish you'd post more often, but I thank you very much for what you posted here. Means a lot to me. And we old guys gotta stick together.

Turned 42 in July. I always knew Star Wars (Toys, comics, books....did I mention toys?) having older brothers but never got to see a Star Wars film before Empire which I was 4. Growing up having older brothers and my mom to discuss the themes, characters and story with helped make Star Wars more than just films for me. They were MY myth, and even when SW wasn't cool anymore with the rise of Transformers and He-Man, I always held onto to my myth.
The prequels (1 and 2) were heartbreaking. Tried to like them, but didn't actually like one until ROTS. I wanted SW done after that, feeling like any more would not add anything to my myth and only made for money to be made, not to expand the myths I grew up with.
I liked TFA quite a bit, but like many just didn't feel like it was "necessary", that after Jedi the real story was told and they just brought it back to Empire vs Rebels again because that's exciting (and it is). But it wasn't until TLJ that I was grateful for more SW films. Finally, a writer-director who understood what made SW last for 40 years: the mythology of The Force and a deep understanding of our heroes. He not only understood why a hero of legend would go into a self exile wishing to die but made it interesting and not cowardly. That was so important to me.

The other thing he did was make the stakes higher than they have seemed since Empire. The Resistance is the only hope left in the galaxy and the First Order has all that remains of them in 3 ships that cannot escape them. That created a conflict that was nice and neat, not being bogged down by planet hopping which while allowing world building gets in the way of smaller, more personal conflicts.

I would love to go on about more but being a high school art teacher, my 42 year old body needs sleep [emoji23] I am also prepping for my third part in a conversation with my T.A. tomorrow on how TLJ is better than TFA. Thanks for giving me talking points [emoji120]


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[e30ernest]

I wouldnt say the reasons for loving TLJ are equal to the reasons for hating it. People could list alot more reasons why its a complete failure as a star wars move then it is a success. We wouldn't be having the conversation if the majority of people liked TLJ, like they do the OT. I mean the OT is beloved for a reason, more people like those films then dislike them. There cannot be equally strong reasons for both hating and loving the OT if they are universally accepted (a lot more people love them then hate them) to be good movies. Don't get me wrong, if you like TLJ, its your opinion who cares what the majority of people think, but you could also say the same thing about BVS or Justice league- People who like those movies have very strong reasons for liking them, as do those that hate it but I wouldn't say they were equal. Alot of people love pizza, you may hate it and love brussel sprouts, good luck convincing the majority of people that brussel sprouts are better then pizza. Yes taste is subjective but the real question is when does subjective taste become more objectively measurable? I'd say when the majority of people agree on something its no longer a subjective experience in that its shared by a greater number of people. I fully understand this being a fan of the DCEU especially MoS, most people hate these films for very valid reasons so I cannot say my reasons for liking it are equally valid or strong to those that dislike it. Quite the contrary, If the majority of people think a movie is trash because it does not adhere to established canon or represent the characters properly its hard to argue with them in a way, or to convince the majority that you minority viewpoint is true. You don't have to change your mind, you definitely wont change their minds, instead accept the fact that you love a movie that the majority of other people think is bad, and even if it is a terrible movie, who gives a **** as long as you enjoy it.

I don't think there has been any conclusive numbers that majority liked or disliked the film. There are indeed people that liked it, and people that hated it. We don't know which is the larger slice of the pie. Anecdotal evidence would suggest that the majority actually liked it. You have 1, solid box office numbers, 2, good critical acclaim and 3, solid exit polling from audiences during the first day of screening (before the social media hate hit mainstream).

@ajp4mgs I read your entire post too. I pretty much agree with you there. It wasn't perfect but I think TLJ was a good hand-off between the old (OT characters) and the new protagonists. TLJ also made me a bit more curious how they'll move on with the story. JJ Abrams isn't particularly well known for providing satisfactory endings to a story (I still cringe at how Lost ended). I think how TLJ will eventually be remembered depends highly on how JJ will use it to conclude the current trilogy.

 

[ajp4mgs]

TLJ is perhaps the most effected by subjectivity in the entire saga.

Yeah, that's a great point. It's not just by being the most divisive SW film that it creates a divide among the fans, but also by being the most open to subjective interpretation. I definitely haven't seen any other SW movie where scenes and characterizations have been interpreted so wildly differently among the fanbase. It's actually been remarkable (and often perplexing) to witness.

Turned 42 in July. I always knew Star Wars (Toys, comics, books....did I mention toys?) having older brothers but never got to see a Star Wars film before Empire which I was 4. Growing up having older brothers and my mom to discuss the themes, characters and story with helped make Star Wars more than just films for me. They were MY myth, and even when SW wasn't cool anymore with the rise of Transformers and He-Man, I always held onto to my myth.
The prequels (1 and 2) were heartbreaking. Tried to like them, but didn't actually like one until ROTS. I wanted SW done after that, feeling like any more would not add anything to my myth and only made for money to be made, not to expand the myths I grew up with.
I liked TFA quite a bit, but like many just didn't feel like it was "necessary", that after Jedi the real story was told and they just brought it back to Empire vs Rebels again because that's exciting (and it is). But it wasn't until TLJ that I was grateful for more SW films. Finally, a writer-director who understood what made SW last for 40 years: the mythology of The Force and a deep understanding of our heroes. He not only understood why a hero of legend would go into a self exile wishing to die but made it interesting and not cowardly. That was so important to me.

The other thing he did was make the stakes higher than they have seemed since Empire. The Resistance is the only hope left in the galaxy and the First Order has all that remains of them in 3 ships that cannot escape them. That created a conflict that was nice and neat, not being bogged down by planet hopping which while allowing world building gets in the way of smaller, more personal conflicts.

We are very much aligned in our experience with, and interpretation of, TLJ (and Star Wars in general). I think we also agree about the value of not only maintaining core SW mythology, but making an effort to push and evolve it. You can't move forward by standing still.

@ajp4mgs I read your entire post too. I pretty much agree with you there. It wasn't perfect but I think TLJ was a good hand-off between the old (OT characters) and the new protagonists. TLJ also made me a bit more curious how they'll move on with the story. JJ Abrams isn't particularly well known for providing satisfactory endings to a story (I still cringe at how Lost ended). I think how TLJ will eventually be remembered depends highly on how JJ will use it to conclude the current trilogy.

Thank you for being willing to read through all that; and thank you for posting your thoughts. It's been cool to see some of this forum's TLJ fans come back here to this thread before it ends up relegated to being lost in the back pages.

I agree that TLJ's legacy will be at least somewhat dependent on how it ends up influencing the conclusion in Episode IX. I hesitate to get overly optimistic about JJ being able to wrap this all up in a satisfying way, but my gut tells me that he'll actually pull it off. We'll see.

 

[xipotec]

Unless JJ gives disgruntled fans what they want, which is apparently more of the same.....the last film will be torn apart like TLJ. Youtube is FULL of people who make a living on critiquing films, picking them apart, and making "funny" videos about them. (Basically trolls) . No matter how good the film is the people who make money off trashing stuff far outnumber the ones who would be positive.

Star Wars is extra special for that now. I fear its now a target for nerds to lash out at. I get not liking something, but the level of negativity thats still being leveled at this film is quite amazing.

The PT gets its pretty bad. I firmly believe had the current "version" of the internet been around when those were released we would have seen similar reactions that we got for TLJ. For all three films.

I sincerely do hope that the people who hated TLJ and the ST actually DO stay away from the last film, I dread going to a theater to see the next film and have to deal with an armchair comedian making comments throughout the film in a desperate plea for attention.

Its bad for films in general when being a negative/comedy critic is the most popular type of video on the internet.



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[slikkerias]

Unless JJ gives disgruntled fans what they want, which is apparently more of the same.....the last film will be torn apart like TLJ. Youtube is FULL of people who make a living on critiquing films, picking them apart, and making "funny" videos about them. (Basically trolls) . No matter how good the film is the people who make money off trashing stuff far outnumber the ones who would be positive.

Star Wars is extra special for that now. I fear its now a target for nerds to lash out at. I get not liking something, but the level of negativity thats still being leveled at this film is quite amazing.

The PT gets its pretty bad. I firmly believe had the current "version" of the internet been around when those were released we would have seen similar reactions that we got for TLJ. For all three films.

I sincerely do hope that the people who hated TLJ and the ST actually DO stay away from the last film, I dread going to a theater to see the next film and have to deal with an armchair comedian making comments throughout the film in a desperate plea for attention.

Its bad for films in general when being a negative/comedy critic is the most popular type of video on the internet.



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Oh, so true. Good post.

 

[Darth Snoopy]

I'm going to make this post too long for anybody to read all the way through. It's a selfish one because it isn't intended to stir discussion or debate. This is simply a personal appreciation post, and it's an expression of my gratitude for a film that is unquestionably (and unfortunately) the most divisive Star Wars movie ever - but one whose virtues (and fans) often get overlooked, denied, or simply overwhelmed by the opposing negativity and hate. I regret what TLJ did to split the SW fan community, but I love what it did for me in terms of storytelling and functional purpose. It was a Star Wars film that came the closest to being what I've wanted a SW movie to be since I saw ROTJ as a 6-year-old kid in the summer of 1983. I know it was the opposite experience for many, but I hope (and believe) that someday that will change for a few fans with the passing of time and the hindsight of a concluded sequel trilogy.

Star Wars was a deeply important movie franchise for me growing up. My parents immigrated here to the United States from Europe not long before I was born. English wasn't my first language, and I started kindergarten at the age of 4 without knowing more than a handful of words of it. Midway through kindergarten, I had learned English properly enough to blend in well - but I struggled to feel as "American" as I wanted to be. Then I was introduced to Star Wars (after the buzz/reaction to ESB coming out in theaters). I was absolutely blown away, and I loved everything about it: the characters, the sights, the sounds, and especially the action figures. As a huge bonus, it gave me my first real cultural point of connectivity and shared experience with everyone else. Star Wars is largely what made me finally feel like an American. It changed my life, and not just in some clichéd way. Nothing (outside of sports) meant more to me growing up, in terms of both entertainment and connecting to this culture that I loved so much.

After getting to watch the entire original trilogy, I obviously wanted more. Novels and comics weren't nearly enough. I needed something on the big screen. I needed more stories about the Skywalkers, the Empire, the Rebellion, the build-up, and the aftermath. It took 16 years to finally get a fourth SW movie to be released. This was going to be epic!

I was 22, and exactly one year removed from having graduated college and started my career. I wasn't a kid anymore, and my hopes and expectations for what another Star Wars film would be like had evolved and expanded. This new film was going to take everything great about the universally-relatable broader concepts of the OT, flesh out the story more, and do so with much better filmmaking technology!! It was going to be the movie that I grew up hoping for: one reflective of a more sophisticated audience that was ready to be challenged both intellectually and viscerally. Well, The Phantom Menace turned out to be . . . the exact opposite. It wasn't made in a way that would appeal to the evolved sensibilities of the fans of the OT who had now grown up; it was made to create a new generation of fans by being tailored to the sensibilities of children. Star Wars became something I grew out of, instead of being something that actually grew with me.

I understand the motive for making the prequel trilogy the way Lucas did, but it was incredibly disappointing to know that the only chance to tell the story of Darth Vader's origin had been done that way. I had hoped to see an intelligent and gripping portrayal of the events and circumstances that old Ben Kenobi had told Luke Skywalker about: the Jedi and great pilot - Anakin Skywalker - who had been seduced by the Dark Side and become Darth Vader. It was a darker story than the OT, so it was one suitable to a more mature storytelling that these now-adult Star Wars fans were finally ready (and very eager) to receive. It could've been Star Wars evolved. It wasn't. Instead, it was mired in silliness, over-dependence on CGI, cringe-inducing dialogue, a hackneyed love story, and poor acting. It was utterly bizarre to me. And it didn't sit well with my circle of Star-Wars-fan friends either, who felt just as letdown as I was. We thought we'd seen the last cinematic Star Wars film, and it left a horrible taste in our mouths.

Fast forward another 10 years after ROTS, and a new trilogy was arriving by way of Disney. On the one hand, I was sad that it wasn't Lucas who was going to finish the 9-part tale that he'd started; but on the other hand, I was overjoyed that he wouldn't get to end it in the same storytelling style of the PT. I wanted someone who was going to take Star Wars forward, in both presentation and story. Along came J.J. Abrams and The Force Awakens. It was new, it was fun, and it had a lot (a whole lot . . . as in "too much") of OT inspiration behind it. It wasn't great, but it felt like it was great because it wasn't stupidly silly in a way that only kids could enjoy (like the PT). Overall it was pretty cool, and it was at least satisfying enough. A breath of fresh air. But it still wasn't what I'd hoped Star Wars would've evolved into with the last chance to use Ford, Fisher, and Hamill. They didn't even share any screen time together (not even one second), and never would again.

Then came Rogue One. A beautifully-made film that was everything I wanted, but not with the characters or story that I cared about. That's probably why it bored me a bit despite being a technically spot-on and impressive cinematic presentation. If only the Rogue One brain-trust had been given the reigns of the ST! I would have gotten my mature, evolved, more cerebral (yet still fun), and epic conclusion to the Skywalker Saga. Oh well. At least for me, Episode 8 came along and finally gave me a lot of what I'd been looking for (in spite of some shortcomings and easily-avoidable problems).

TLJ didn't get trapped into delivering fan service. It wasn't made to appease the sensibilities and fantasies of fanboys' collective head canon. It was one man's story that took the setup he inherited, and moved it forward with the themes and some of the characters he grew up loving and admiring. He chose not to simply present them as they'd always been, but rather allowed these characters and themes to evolve and head toward a conclusion.

Luke Skywalker was given a chance to go from staring at twin suns with hope and longing, to staring at twin suns with sober reflection and hard-earned peace of mind. He'd grown up. He had gone from being the heir of both an Empire and the nearly-extinct Jedi legacy, to the destroyer of the Empire, and then to the inspiration of renewed hope among a new generation of Jedi. TLJ gave me a more decent and sensible explanation than I thought possible for what TFA established as Luke having deserted everyone for years. Luke had suffered a lot, he'd learned from the past, was trying to make things right, but had taken things a little too far. His master returned to set him straight, rekindle his hope, and remind him how Obi-Wan had shown the path to help and guide someone in a way that was "more powerful than you can possibly imagine." And now Luke is exactly that, and always will be!

After 34 years of waiting, I finally got a follow-up cinematic Star Wars experience that realized there was always more to this saga than "pew-pew" lasers, swooshing lightsabers, and supermen who could use magic to take down armies. I got a film that rightfully established that Luke had grown from novice, to Knight, to legendary Master. Leia had grown from passionate rebel who inherited leadership, to battle-worn mentor who was ready to pass the torch by way of poignant lessons (taught both by word and by deed). And a new group of heroes was learning to capitalize on the role they inherited. Gone from SW was the PT over-dependence on hollow CGI, hollow characterizations, unconvincing portrayals, and brutally-forced dialogue. Gone was TFA's over-reliance on familiar tropes and obsession with "cool" presentation. TLJ brought me more of what I wanted from a SW sequel (prequels included) than any film since the OT. It was far from perfect (still could've been damn close if not for a few misguided choices), but it was the more grown-up Star Wars that I'd long hoped for.

I know many disagree with my point of view. That's fine. I know that many hated TLJ. That's fine. I know that this post will likely be followed with TLJ ridicule, or "didn't read, LOL" memes/gifs, or nothing at all. That's all fine too. Because I got a SW movie as an adult that made me feel the way I'd been hoping to since I was a kid. It actually wasn't the story I wanted or imagined, but it was told the way I wanted. So I'm thankful to everyone involved in making TLJ for prioritizing story vision over appeasing fans' wishlist (my own included). Even if everyone else hated it, this extremely long post proves there's at least one person who deeply appreciates TLJ. The end.

Daaayum. Epic post is epic.

 

[xipotec]

I'm going to make this post too long for anybody to read all the way through. It's a selfish one because it isn't intended to stir discussion or debate. This is simply a personal appreciation post, and it's an expression of my gratitude for a film that is unquestionably (and unfortunately) the most divisive Star Wars movie ever - but one whose virtues (and fans) often get overlooked, denied, or simply overwhelmed by the opposing negativity and hate. I regret what TLJ did to split the SW fan community, but I love what it did for me in terms of storytelling and functional purpose. It was a Star Wars film that came the closest to being what I've wanted a SW movie to be since I saw ROTJ as a 6-year-old kid in the summer of 1983. I know it was the opposite experience for many, but I hope (and believe) that someday that will change for a few fans with the passing of time and the hindsight of a concluded sequel trilogy.

Star Wars was a deeply important movie franchise for me growing up. My parents immigrated here to the United States from Europe not long before I was born. English wasn't my first language, and I started kindergarten at the age of 4 without knowing more than a handful of words of it. Midway through kindergarten, I had learned English properly enough to blend in well - but I struggled to feel as "American" as I wanted to be. Then I was introduced to Star Wars (after the buzz/reaction to ESB coming out in theaters). I was absolutely blown away, and I loved everything about it: the characters, the sights, the sounds, and especially the action figures. As a huge bonus, it gave me my first real cultural point of connectivity and shared experience with everyone else. Star Wars is largely what made me finally feel like an American. It changed my life, and not just in some clichéd way. Nothing (outside of sports) meant more to me growing up, in terms of both entertainment and connecting to this culture that I loved so much.

After getting to watch the entire original trilogy, I obviously wanted more. Novels and comics weren't nearly enough. I needed something on the big screen. I needed more stories about the Skywalkers, the Empire, the Rebellion, the build-up, and the aftermath. It took 16 years to finally get a fourth SW movie to be released. This was going to be epic!

I was 22, and exactly one year removed from having graduated college and started my career. I wasn't a kid anymore, and my hopes and expectations for what another Star Wars film would be like had evolved and expanded. This new film was going to take everything great about the universally-relatable broader concepts of the OT, flesh out the story more, and do so with much better filmmaking technology!! It was going to be the movie that I grew up hoping for: one reflective of a more sophisticated audience that was ready to be challenged both intellectually and viscerally. Well, The Phantom Menace turned out to be . . . the exact opposite. It wasn't made in a way that would appeal to the evolved sensibilities of the fans of the OT who had now grown up; it was made to create a new generation of fans by being tailored to the sensibilities of children. Star Wars became something I grew out of, instead of being something that actually grew with me.

I understand the motive for making the prequel trilogy the way Lucas did, but it was incredibly disappointing to know that the only chance to tell the story of Darth Vader's origin had been done that way. I had hoped to see an intelligent and gripping portrayal of the events and circumstances that old Ben Kenobi had told Luke Skywalker about: the Jedi and great pilot - Anakin Skywalker - who had been seduced by the Dark Side and become Darth Vader. It was a darker story than the OT, so it was one suitable to a more mature storytelling that these now-adult Star Wars fans were finally ready (and very eager) to receive. It could've been Star Wars evolved. It wasn't. Instead, it was mired in silliness, over-dependence on CGI, cringe-inducing dialogue, a hackneyed love story, and poor acting. It was utterly bizarre to me. And it didn't sit well with my circle of Star-Wars-fan friends either, who felt just as letdown as I was. We thought we'd seen the last cinematic Star Wars film, and it left a horrible taste in our mouths.

Fast forward another 10 years after ROTS, and a new trilogy was arriving by way of Disney. On the one hand, I was sad that it wasn't Lucas who was going to finish the 9-part tale that he'd started; but on the other hand, I was overjoyed that he wouldn't get to end it in the same storytelling style of the PT. I wanted someone who was going to take Star Wars forward, in both presentation and story. Along came J.J. Abrams and The Force Awakens. It was new, it was fun, and it had a lot (a whole lot . . . as in "too much") of OT inspiration behind it. It wasn't great, but it felt like it was great because it wasn't stupidly silly in a way that only kids could enjoy (like the PT). Overall it was pretty cool, and it was at least satisfying enough. A breath of fresh air. But it still wasn't what I'd hoped Star Wars would've evolved into with the last chance to use Ford, Fisher, and Hamill. They didn't even share any screen time together (not even one second), and never would again.

Then came Rogue One. A beautifully-made film that was everything I wanted, but not with the characters or story that I cared about. That's probably why it bored me a bit despite being a technically spot-on and impressive cinematic presentation. If only the Rogue One brain-trust had been given the reigns of the ST! I would have gotten my mature, evolved, more cerebral (yet still fun), and epic conclusion to the Skywalker Saga. Oh well. At least for me, Episode 8 came along and finally gave me a lot of what I'd been looking for (in spite of some shortcomings and easily-avoidable problems).

TLJ didn't get trapped into delivering fan service. It wasn't made to appease the sensibilities and fantasies of fanboys' collective head canon. It was one man's story that took the setup he inherited, and moved it forward with the themes and some of the characters he grew up loving and admiring. He chose not to simply present them as they'd always been, but rather allowed these characters and themes to evolve and head toward a conclusion.

Luke Skywalker was given a chance to go from staring at twin suns with hope and longing, to staring at twin suns with sober reflection and hard-earned peace of mind. He'd grown up. He had gone from being the heir of both an Empire and the nearly-extinct Jedi legacy, to the destroyer of the Empire, and then to the inspiration of renewed hope among a new generation of Jedi. TLJ gave me a more decent and sensible explanation than I thought possible for what TFA established as Luke having deserted everyone for years. Luke had suffered a lot, he'd learned from the past, was trying to make things right, but had taken things a little too far. His master returned to set him straight, rekindle his hope, and remind him how Obi-Wan had shown the path to help and guide someone in a way that was "more powerful than you can possibly imagine." And now Luke is exactly that, and always will be!

After 34 years of waiting, I finally got a follow-up cinematic Star Wars experience that realized there was always more to this saga than "pew-pew" lasers, swooshing lightsabers, and supermen who could use magic to take down armies. I got a film that rightfully established that Luke had grown from novice, to Knight, to legendary Master. Leia had grown from passionate rebel who inherited leadership, to battle-worn mentor who was ready to pass the torch by way of poignant lessons (taught both by word and by deed). And a new group of heroes was learning to capitalize on the role they inherited. Gone from SW was the PT over-dependence on hollow CGI, hollow characterizations, unconvincing portrayals, and brutally-forced dialogue. Gone was TFA's over-reliance on familiar tropes and obsession with "cool" presentation. TLJ brought me more of what I wanted from a SW sequel (prequels included) than any film since the OT. It was far from perfect (still could've been damn close if not for a few misguided choices), but it was the more grown-up Star Wars that I'd long hoped for.

I know many disagree with my point of view. That's fine. I know that many hated TLJ. That's fine. I know that this post will likely be followed with TLJ ridicule, or "didn't read, LOL" memes/gifs, or nothing at all. That's all fine too. Because I got a SW movie as an adult that made me feel the way I'd been hoping to since I was a kid. It actually wasn't the story I wanted or imagined, but it was told the way I wanted. So I'm thankful to everyone involved in making TLJ for prioritizing story vision over appeasing fans' wishlist (my own included). Even if everyone else hated it, this extremely long post proves there's at least one person who deeply appreciates TLJ. The end.

Encapsulated the point of the ST perfectly. Well done. Very interesting to see SW making a new immigrant feel like an American. But thats what this country is suppose to be about , inclusive, shared experiences that make us all more similar than different.

Bravo.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[ajp4mgs]

Unless JJ gives disgruntled fans what they want, which is apparently more of the same.....the last film will be torn apart like TLJ. Youtube is FULL of people who make a living on critiquing films, picking them apart, and making "funny" videos about them. (Basically trolls) . No matter how good the film is the people who make money off trashing stuff far outnumber the ones who would be positive.

Star Wars is extra special for that now. I fear its now a target for nerds to lash out at. I get not liking something, but the level of negativity thats still being leveled at this film is quite amazing.

The PT gets its pretty bad. I firmly believe had the current "version" of the internet been around when those were released we would have seen similar reactions that we got for TLJ. For all three films.

I sincerely do hope that the people who hated TLJ and the ST actually DO stay away from the last film, I dread going to a theater to see the next film and have to deal with an armchair comedian making comments throughout the film in a desperate plea for attention.

Its bad for films in general when being a negative/comedy critic is the most popular type of video on the internet.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I can't disagree with anything you wrote. The YouTube criticism videos are certainly a new cottage industry. They basically take advantage of the fact that some people seem to need constant validation for their opinion, or are desperate to feel "cool" by trashing something that's in the mainstream.

JJ can conclude the saga without pandering to disgruntled fans, or appeasing anyone. Again, I don't have any valid reason for believing that he can or will; it's just a gut feeling that he's going to pull it off. There will be haters for sure, no matter what. But a relative consensus on being satisfied with the conclusion is still possible. The fringes won't matter.

Daaayum. Epic post is epic.

Thank you; you are too kind. And you also proved that the quote box here has no limits when it comes to word count.

Encapsulated the point of the ST perfectly. Well done. Very interesting to see SW making a new immigrant feel like an American. But thats what this country is suppose to be about , inclusive, shared experiences that make us all more similar than different.

Bravo.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Thank you very much, xipotec. Much appreciated. Point of clarification: I'm not an immigrant; my parents were. English just wasn't my first language.

 

[Reefer Shark]

I'm going to make this post too long for anybody to read all the way through. It's a selfish one because it isn't intended to stir discussion or debate. .

Thanks for the well articulated, and reasonable positive thoughts on this very misunderstood movie! I couldn't agree with you more, and I loved this move for many of the reasons you mentioned. (I'm 47 by the way, so I've been around for all iterations of Star Wars as well)

Unless JJ gives disgruntled fans what they want, which is apparently more of the same.....the last film will be torn apart like TLJ. Youtube is FULL of people who make a living on critiquing films, picking them apart, and making "funny" videos about them. (Basically trolls) . No matter how good the film is the people who make money off trashing stuff far outnumber the ones who would be positive.

Star Wars is extra special for that now. I fear its now a target for nerds to lash out at. I get not liking something, but the level of negativity thats still being leveled at this film is quite amazing.

The PT gets its pretty bad. I firmly believe had the current "version" of the internet been around when those were released we would have seen similar reactions that we got for TLJ. For all three films.

I sincerely do hope that the people who hated TLJ and the ST actually DO stay away from the last film, I dread going to a theater to see the next film and have to deal with an armchair comedian making comments throughout the film in a desperate plea for attention.

Its bad for films in general when being a negative/comedy critic is the most popular type of video on the internet.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have to say, I honestly feel that so much of today's audience is influenced by early reviews and other peoples opinions, that it's to the point where in some cases their minds are already made up before they even see the movies. Which is very sad indeed.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Thanks for the well articulated, and reasonable positive thoughts on this very misunderstood movie! I couldn't agree with you more, and I loved this move for many of the reasons you mentioned. (I'm 47 by the way, so I've been around for all iterations of Star Wars as well)



I have to say, I honestly feel that so much of today's audience is influenced by early reviews and other peoples opinions, that it's to the point where in some cases their minds are already made up before they even see the movies. Which is very sad indeed.

Wow, how did the stellar critical rotten tomatoes score for TLJ influence viewers in a negative way when they were all sucking RJ's **** saying its the best ever? Also if the majority of people didn't hate TLJ we wouldn't be seeing all these you tube videos, how many of these type of videos do you see for Avengers Infinity war or Star Wars OT?? You don't see any because the majority of people loved them. If most people didn't agree that TLJ was crap we wouldn't be seeing these videos, they would get no hits, in fact we would be seeing the opposite, a bunch of praise vidoes or sequel speculation videos. Im sure if you search really hard you will find hate vidoes for the OT, but they wont have many hits. The reason these videos are prevalent for TLJ is because the movie is hated by the vast majority of people so the content sells. You see the same **** with DCEU

 

[Khev]

Even as a TLJ “hater” I think I could list more positives than negatives. It’s more about the weight than quantity for me. For example there’s the obviously divisive direction of Luke’s narrative but even within that it’s hard not to consider Hamill’s performance as a great element of the film.

TLJ is perhaps the most effected by subjectivity in the entire saga.

Yeah, that's why I still contend that TLJ is the IM3 or TDKR of Star Wars. All three were beautifully filmed and acted with some stellar action sequences but also containing some highly controversial narrative decisions that turned off a very vocal portion (regardless of whether it's the minority or majority) of the fanbase.

Critics loved how all three were made but fans (myself included) take it one step further and review based on how they think they "should" be made. And therein lies the divide IMO.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Hamills performance was great but that doesn't mean his character was a great representation of Luke Skywalker based on pre established lore and canon. Affleck did great as Batman in BVS but his batman was killing and branding fools, not a good representation of the character for most that wanted it to follow cannon. Both wanted to see luke and batman not just Hamill and Affleck giving good performances of characters we do not recognize. Are we supposed to believe this is luke and batman because they dress like them or because of name alone; do we ignore their actions or how they are portrayed on screen even when it doesn't make any sense or is not in line with the key components of an established character???

 

[YoNoSe]

I believe that’s Luke in TLJ I just don’t like the narrative.

Keaton Batman set a dude on fire with a jet engine and blew a guy up with dynamite.

This is old brew.