Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Ya i didnt see the version you guys saw that fill in the blanks and wtf moments with your ficking thories

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

And off screen explanations

 

[Khev]

But, Khev, please don't compare TLJ to IM3 or TDKR anymore. You're just hurting my soul now.

Yeah but most "normies" like TDKR, IM3, and TLJ. It's just us crazies on the internet that are so easily offended by otherwise good movies. And I include myself in that boat because I can recognize that the first Avengers film was well made but it still pisses me off to no end on account of how Captain America was portrayed, lol. "Der my gay *** suit, der I can't defeat one normal bad guy, save me Iron Man, derrrr!"

Lol by the way kiev you cool with luke in this but hate bvs because of how batman and superman are portrayed i know thats the only reason u chimed in

I enjoyed BvS. If that film wasn't destroyed by the spoilers in the trailers then there's no doubt in my mind that it would be looked at very differently today.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

He saw darkness in him and for a moment...

 

[ajp4mgs]

Ya i didnt see the version you guys saw that fill in the blanks and wtf moments with your ficking thories

And off screen explanations

He saw darkness in him and for a moment...

You do know that Luke was a Jedi Master when he was training his nephew, right? And how that means far more time learning about the Force in the 20-or-so years since the OT? If so, then you should also understand that Luke's ability to see what had happened to Ben (including visions of the future) would be much more advanced than what Luke would be capable of in the OT.

Luke saw more than a fleeting glimpse of darkness. Luke was mortified and crushed by the pure level of Darkness that Snoke had managed to corrupt Ben with. Luke could see far more than you seem to want to give him credit for.

If you watch the flashback scenes, and listen to the dialogue, you'll understand that we're not relying on fan theories or off-screen explanations. Watching, listening, and comprehending are the keys.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

You do know that Luke was a Jedi Master when he was training his nephew, right? And how that means far more time learning about the Force in the 20-or-so years since the OT? If so, then you should also understand that Luke's ability to see what had happened to Ben (including visions of the future) would be much more advanced than what Luke would be capable of in the OT.

Luke saw more than a fleeting glimpse of darkness. Luke was mortified and crushed by the pure level of Darkness that Snoke had managed to corrupt Ben with. Luke could see far more than you seem to want to give him credit for.

If you watch the flashback scenes, and listen to the dialogue, you'll understand that we're not relying on fan theories or off-screen explanations. Watching, listening, and comprehending are the keys.

Dude no offense but your adding fan fiction here, you do not know exactly what luke saw or even what dark thoughts kylo was thinking since they never explicitly stated it or showed it (bad writing or copout idk)- IN force awakens, leia told han that there was still good in him, to save him.
How could leia sense this but not luke?? He couldnt even pull the trigger to kill his mother in TLJ, what does that tell you, that he was like vader, there is still good in him. Luke skywalker is like superman in a way, he represents hope and the light, he always saw the good in people (even scoundrels like solo) and inspired people around him to be better people with this hope. the Luke i know would not have given up on kylo so easily, he would have tried to save him from the darkside, not hideaway on a rock and give up. This is the same problem Mark Hamill had, it makes no sense given the character of Luke Skywalker, as we know him. Again if you like it thats fine but stop spinning **** to fit your own narrative of things and tell other people that they just dont understand what they saw. Thats the same arguement bvs defenders used, oh its just above your head or to complex for your basic understanding

 

[Khev]

IN force awakens, leia told han that there was still good in him

Yep and she was totally right too!

Oh wait...

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Yep and she was totally right too!

Oh wait...

Han helped him do it which is why he said thank you, and like snoke said kylos weak he has emotions for his family. He didnt kill han because he wanted too, true sith hate, which is why he didnt become more powerful in the force like most sith do.. He had great conflict from doing it, the bad guy thing just doesnt fully work for kylo, which is also why he couldnt kill his mother. He is trying really hard to be bad, its also why he asked his grandfather for help, he feels the pull of the light constantly, which means he isnt all gone and never has been.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Dude no offense but your adding fan fiction here, you do not know exactly what luke saw or even what dark thoughts kylo was thinking since they never explicitly stated it or showed it (bad writing or copout idk)- IN force awakens, leia told han that there was still good in him, to save him.
How could leia sense this but not luke?? He couldnt even pull the trigger to kill his mother in TLJ, what does that tell you, that he was like vader, there is still good in him. Luke skywalker is like superman in a way, he represents hope and the light, he always saw the good in people (even scoundrels like solo) and inspired people around him to be better people with this hope. the Luke i know would not have given up on kylo so easily, he would have tried to save him from the darkside, not hideaway on a rock and give up. This is the same problem Mark Hamill had, it makes no sense given the character of Luke Skywalker, as we know him. Again if you like thats fine but stop spinning **** to fit your own narrative of things

Watch the Luke-version flashback scenes again. Listen to more than just the dialogue. Listen to the background sounds.

And Luke explicitly states that he saw a deeper corruption than you have been suggesting. And how Leia blamed Snoke, but Luke blamed himself. All in the movie.

And do you think Leia would have told Han to go get Ben if she could see the future where Kylo kills Han? Leia was Ben's mother; she had a hope that was less-informed than what Luke saw. When Luke's projection tells Leia, "I didn't come here to save him" that's relevant. Luke couldn't. And Kylo not killing Leia is foreshadowing. Han couldn't save Ben. Luke can't save Ben. Leia likely would have.

No fan fiction here. Just understanding what the movies are telling us. Sometimes you just need to pay close attention to more than just what's being said and made explicitly clear.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

fan fiction again.. its not about what I believe the characters thought its what i saw happen. I can add any justification i want for a characters motivations but if its not actually shown on screen as such then its just fan fiction. Leia saw good in kylo, kylo struggled hard to kill his father because he was torn between the light and dark, its why Snoke saw him as weak. Even after killing his father he wasnt fully committed to the darkside as he couldnt kill his mother. Kylo still could have been saved by luke but luke chose to humiliate him as a failure. Again if luke wasnt hiding away on a rock Han may never have died, had luke even tried to get kylo back or to help him once he lost him to snoke the first time

 

[Khev]

Han helped him do it which is why he said thank you,

You literally just proved my point. You don't get any more evil than thanking the person you're murdering for giving you an opportunity to murder them.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

You literally just proved my point. You don't get any more evil than thanking the person you're murdering for giving you an opportunity to murder them.

what point.. kylo was crying and needed his dad just to be passive, han willing sacrificed himself for kylo at that moment. It wasn't an act of sith rage or power, it ****ed kylo up which again is why he couldnt kill his mother, he wasnt all bad, he could still be saved.....

 

[Khev]

And Kylo not killing Leia is foreshadowing.

Yeah we had to have some belief that Rey could turn him which wouldn't have existed without some event after Han's murder raising some doubt as to what was in his heart. Him sparing Leia provided that doubt for the audience and made us wonder if Rey was right and Luke was wrong. That doubt was 100% erased when Ben refused to help Rey and the Resistance and then shortly thereafter tried to murder his uncle.

 

[Khev]

You literally just proved my point. You don't get any more evil than thanking the person you're murdering for giving you an opportunity to murder them.

what point..

Sigh. I don't envy the deep struggle you have comprehending these films...

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Sigh. I don't envy the struggle you have comprehending these films...

lol ya just like your comprehension of the DCEU.. dude we both love marvel and captain america cant we just overlook our differences on this movie.

Why didnt kylo kill his mother in TLJ if the things luke saw were so bad there was no comming back??? You never address the main points of my arguement you will take the one sentence where im being sarcastic like kylo watching **** or whatever an run with it all the while ignoring the main points. I guess i understand why, a sarcastic sentence is not meant to be accurate, but you use that one sentence to say i dont get points all the while ignoring everything else...

 

[ajp4mgs]

what point.. kylo was crying and needed his dad just to be passive, han willing sacrificed himself for kylo at that moment. It wasn't an act of sith rage or power, it ****ed kylo up which again is why he couldnt kill his mother, he wasnt all bad, he could still be saved.....

This is the last point I'll make on this subject because I've spent way more time on it than I should have. Let's just assume that Luke could see some of what would become of Kylo (just humor me with this hypothetical, please). If Luke could see Kylo kill Han, and see Kylo killing Luke's students, and Kylo being a part of completely destroying 5 planets . . . should Luke have been tempted to take Ben's life in that hut? What if Luke could sense what kind of rage Kylo would have against him that he'd fire every shot he could from a bunch of AT-AT's at his uncle . . . should he believe that he could redeem/save his nephew?

 

[Khev]

lol ya just like your comprehension of the DCEU..

dude we both love marvel and captain america cant we just overlook our differences on this movie

Of course! These are heated disagreements but no enemies here.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

This is the last point I'll make on this subject because I've spent way more time on it than I should have. Let's just assume that Luke could see some of what would become of Kylo (just humor me with this hypothetical, please). If Luke could see Kylo kill Han, and see Kylo killing Luke's students, and Kylo being a part of completely destroying 5 planets . . . should Luke have been tempted to take Ben's life in that hut? What if Luke could sense what kind of rage Kylo would have against him that he'd fire every shot he could from a bunch of AT-AT's at his uncle . . . should he believe that he could redeem/save his nephew?

if were going with assumptions kylo never would have killed han because the real luke skywalker wouldnt have given up on him so easily.

 

[Khev]

Why didnt kylo kill his mother in TLJ if the things luke saw were so bad there was no comming back??? You never address the main points of my arguement you will take the one sentence where im being sarcastic like kylo watching **** or whatever an run with it all the while ignoring the main points. I guess i understand why, a sarcastic sentence is not meant to be accurate, but you use that one sentence to say i dont get points all the while ignoring everything else...

I just noticed this part that you added. As I stated to ajp4mgs I believe that Kylo sparing Leia was a red herring so that the audience would wonder if he could be saved (just like the "no there is another" was a throw away line originally meant to make the audience think that Luke was expendable in ESB.) Since TLJ ultimately proved that he could *not* be saved then I take it as him having enough of an attachment toward his mother that he wasn't going to go out of his way to kill her. Remember you can want people around for selfish reasons, that doesn't inherently make you a good person. Palpatine gingerly put his hand on burning Anakin's forehead and ordered him to be saved but I don't think anyone would consider any of that to be acts of "good."

Also notice that when the two TIE Fighters blew up the bridge Kylo looked surprised but NOT upset and for the rest of the movie when he thought she was dead he didn't grieve for even a millisecond.

 

[Bravomite]

Dude no offense but your adding fan fiction here, you do not know exactly what luke saw or even what dark thoughts kylo was thinking since they never explicitly stated it or showed it (bad writing or copout idk)- IN force awakens, leia told han that there was still good in him, to save him.
How could leia sense this but not luke?? He couldnt even pull the trigger to kill his mother in TLJ, what does that tell you, that he was like vader, there is still good in him. Luke skywalker is like superman in a way, he represents hope and the light, he always saw the good in people (even scoundrels like solo) and inspired people around him to be better people with this hope. the Luke i know would not have given up on kylo so easily, he would have tried to save him from the darkside, not hideaway on a rock and give up. This is the same problem Mark Hamill had, it makes no sense given the character of Luke Skywalker, as we know him. Again if you like it thats fine but stop spinning **** to fit your own narrative of things and tell other people that they just dont understand what they saw. Thats the same arguement bvs defenders used, oh its just above your head or to complex for your basic understanding

Interesting discussion again in these TLJ threads... It's becoming more frequent, most disturbing, I must reflect on this.

Joking aside, I find it interesting to read the posts from fans who enjoyed TLJ and often you do make me re-appreciate certain elements of the film that I originally couldnt see on account of my angry disappointed sith eyes (bah I hate you Rian Johnson - said in best Anakin voice). But then someone posts something like this and the pull of the dark hater side is too strong and before I know it I've dumped Han Solo of the side of that catwalk and now I'm being beaten by a barely trained gurl of all things.

My point is... Skywalker(OG)Kush and I see Luke in the same way. He will always be a beacon of hope to me and his character embodies resilience, love and belief in the good in people. The Luke I know would not give up on his nephew even if he thought there was little chance of saving him. He would have to try and more than likely he would have died doing all that he could to redeem him. As the TLJ light side lovers like to say, part of the blame for Ben's turn rests squarely at the feet of his uncle, Jedi master Luke. I just cannot imagine a version of events where the Luke I have known for most of my life doesn't take responsibility for those errors caused by his own hubris by trying to make it right and save his nephew. That is why TLJ fails. Above all the other nitpicks and larger grievances with the liberties it takes with the established lore, TLJ fails for a lot of the haters because it doesn't understand why so many of us connect with and empathise with Luke.

In order for us to believe and be onboard with the transition from Luke to Jake more needed to be shown on screen. As it stands, for many it is too jarring and as result we are left feeling (as lame as it sounds) a little bereft that a pop culture icon and a beloved character that we have known for a long time has been fundamentally altered in order to push the next generation of hero (who LFL appear to want to be NuLuke but the young hopeful original trilogy version not grouchy hopeless old man Luke).