Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Sweet Rabbit]

For awhile there this thread had become a Last Jedi thread again...lots of good discussion about the movie...and then the Trolls returned...some of you should go ahead and start a new thread called "Old Unresolved Thread Arguments" and allow this one to go back to being a Last Jedi thread.

Did you think it would last long?

 

[jal76]

Did you think it would last long?

Gotta be honest...it lasted days longer than I thought...

 

[Popnfresh98]

He's responsible for the deaths of two OT heroes, one directly and one indirectly, so he should come to a truly nasty end IMO. Hopefully they don't just have him get redeemed and die doing something heroic at the last second, I mean even Leia ended up washing her hands of him.

Yeah I completely agree, kylo should come to a particularly bad end, without the last minute quickie redemption. That’s why I liked how small and poignant the one you suggested was, a truly tragic way for a tormented soul to go out.

And who knows, with Carrie’s passing he may be inadvertently responsible for Leia’s death as well - of a broken heart

 

[Khev]

Yeah I completely agree, kylo should come to a particularly bad end, without the last minute quickie redemption.

Yeah, and I don't see why they can't make him exponentially more powerful than Rey in the next one. Maybe say that the effect of Luke's sacrifice was two-fold. On the one hand it inspired countless broom boys to open themselves to the Light Side of the Force with the flip side being that the Force becomes more "dilluted" by spreading across so many individuals. With only one Dark Side user (Kylo) that side concentrates it's power in *him alone* making even Rey a joke to him.

Actually now that I think of it Rian's idea of one side balancing the other is kind of a brilliant way to explain the "only two" rule for the Sith. Because now it can play like there's no reason they *couldn't* raise a Sith army it's just that none of them ever want to allow their latent power to diminish to increase the whole. With TLJ's balance doctrine it will always mean a smaller number of Force wielders on either side will enjoy greater power. So in TFA when Luke went off the grid and the Dark Side had Snoke, Kylo, *and* Praetorian Guards/Knights of Ren the Light Side had no choice but to become incredibly concentrated in Rey. But now that it's just Kylo against her and all those following Luke's example the tables can really turn in his favor making for a much more interesting challenge for Rey to overcome.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Are we really preaching that the once all-powerful Force has a finite amount of "juice" and can only spread so far?



I thought it was explained pretty well in the first movie: its an energy field created by ALL living things; it surrounds us, it penetrates us -- it binds the galaxy together.

So if there's more life, there's more energy. It does not flood to one person. A person can wield it. He can wield A LOT of it. But it wouldn't diminish as someone usurps it.

 

[Bravomite]

Yeah, and I don't see why they can't make him exponentially more powerful than Rey in the next one. Maybe say that the effect of Luke's sacrifice was two-fold. On the one hand it inspired countless broom boys to open themselves to the Light Side of the Force with the flip side being that the Force becomes more "dilluted" by spreading across so many individuals. With only one Dark Side user (Kylo) that side concentrates it's power in *him alone* making even Rey a joke to him.

Actually now that I think of it Rian's idea of one side balancing the other is kind of a brilliant way to explain the "only two" rule for the Sith. Because now it can play like there's no reason they *couldn't* raise a Sith army it's just that none of them ever want to allow their latent power to diminish to increase the whole. With TLJ's balance doctrine it will always mean a smaller number of Force wielders on either side will enjoy greater power. So in TFA when Luke went off the grid and the Dark Side had Snoke, Kylo, *and* Praetorian Guards/Knights of Ren the Light Side had no choice but to become incredibly concentrated in Rey. But now that it's just Kylo against her and all those following Luke's example the tables can really turn in his favor making for a much more interesting challenge for Rey to overcome.

It's a nice idea but the dark side presumably still manifests in and is used by the Knights of Ren as well as Kylo so it will still be diluted. In addition, I believe that Snoke dieing cancelled out Luke dieing. Unless Rey has an army of Broom Boys there is no reason, even through the lens of Rian Johnson's NuCanon, for Rey to lose her overpowered status.

 

[Bravomite]

Are we really preaching that the once all-powerful Force has a finite amount of "juice" and can only spread so far?



I thought it was explained pretty well in the first movie: its an energy field created by ALL living things; it surrounds us, it penetrates us -- it binds the galaxy together.

So if there's more life, there's more energy. It does not flood to one person. A person can wield it. He can wield A LOT of it. But it wouldn't diminish as someone usurps it.

WorGar is right, it all comes down to midichlorians!

 

[TaliBane]

For awhile there this thread had become a Last Jedi thread again...lots of good discussion about the movie...and then the Trolls returned...some of you should go ahead and start a new thread called "Old Unresolved Thread Arguments" and allow this one to go back to being a Last Jedi thread.

Also, still catching up but so nice to see many moving past the finger pointing to actual movie discussion.

And yet, even in that pure, "lots of good discussion" context......

Count me in as a TLJ lover.

The truth is, no matter what the story was, many would have been up and arms over it, I'm just glad the filmmakers didn't play it safe.

I am actually thinking the route they will go is to have everything burned down...as they have continually hinted at.

The rebellion gone
The Empire and FO gone.
The Jedi and Sith (as we know it) gone.

This gives the creative team free license to take the SW universe into new areas.

What I hope this means is new Jedi (Force users) powers and new conflicts. Perhaps taking the journey into the outer rim areas we hear about and seeing things we have never seen before.

I know there is a huge part of the fan base that wants to stick with the established rules and order of conflict and drama establishes by previous films....

But if there is one thing I have learned from watching Clone Wars and Rebels is there is a lot to be said for the stories that go outside the established arcs we are all comfortable with.

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Yep, "doing something different" can always backfire or be bad (as many TLJ haters obviously claim for this particular film) but I really love that at the end of the day neither TFA nor TLJ sat on their laurels and went for the low hanging fan service. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to simply have Han, Luke, and Leia together again, kicking *** and all that or Luke using the Force to lift AT-AT's, make Star Destroyers crash or what have you and I think it's great that they put story over uninspired fan pandering.

Now do I love everything about the "story" that they *did* choose? I can't say 100% yes but I'll take it because I never thought I'd watch a SW film (with OT heroes no less) that went in unexpected directions again. Also for any flaws the good still far outweighs the bad IMO.

Daisy has publicly stated that she's done after Episode IX but obviously never say never because for many years Ford said that he didn't like Han Solo and would never return to the role either. I think the "Mary Sue" comments and backlash really got to Ridley (she terminated all of her social media accounts the week after TLJ was released) and that for her the SW honeymoon is largely over.

Well as a-dev said the Empire/Rebellion conflict was over (dead if you will) 30 years ago and LFL went out of their way to resurrect it so if they wanted to go in a new direction they could have already done that with TFA. What's interesting is just how many people have latched on to the main villain's mantra as if it's the official company line of Disney itself. Of course they don't want to "kill the past" they want to milk it for all it's worth. If Ford didn't demand to die you know that they would have enlisted him for the long haul. Going by the logic of many naysayers I guess Disney also wants to murder half the universe. Not a great way to sell tickets.

"TLJ haters." Hmmm.

Do you really have this short term of a memory? Simple search results:

I mean there’s more, I didn’t quote every single one.

Of course the guy claiming never to have insulted anyone turns out to be the nastiest, instantly going towards racism, sexism, and constantly judging people’s *** lives. But no, personally speaking, you never insulted anyone. Riiiiight.

I spent all of ten seconds. Looks like you spent the full minute.

Ha ha ha! Someone has a crush... I can only imagine how much you could have been accomplishing in real life with the amount of time and effort that compiling my greatest hits mixtape must have taken you. Not sure if I should tip my hat to you or simply feel sorry for you...maybe go with both.

Caught red-handed - aaandddd... let's see which dodge-distract-move-on option we go with. Yep, it's option C: "you have SO much time on your hands!" sarcasm + "I feel sorry for you."

Always a solid choice (especially if you spend a TON of time on Freaks AND in the same thread as the person you're calling out with the "accomplishing things in real life" put-down)

Moral of the story: if you're integral part of a conflict, don't declare yourself above it.

For the first time in a Star Wars movie, I have no clear idea of where they are going with this, and that is far more exciting than any cliffhanger.

Even after scorched earth there will (presumably) be tiny sprouts of new growth. Even from 100% destruction must come... something. And that can, in a way, be exciting?

An empty room has much possibility... is that the point?

 

[Khev]

Are we really preaching that the once all-powerful Force has a finite amount of "juice" and can only spread so far?

No. But there have always been limitations on what any one being could do with it and I think a self-imposed "balance" factor between Light and Dark regardless of how many existed on either side would make for an interesting aspect supported not only by the Sequel Trilogy but the PT as well.

I thought it was explained pretty well in the first movie: its an energy field created by ALL living things; it surrounds us, it penetrates us -- it binds the galaxy together.

So if there's more life, there's more energy. It does not flood to one person. A person can wield it. He can wield A LOT of it. But it wouldn't diminish as someone usurps it.

Ever since the OT there have been varying levels of "strength" in the Force. The Force can be an all powerful energy field but that doesn't mean that anyone who recognizes that fact gets full access to it.

 

[Khev]

It's a nice idea but the dark side presumably still manifests in and is used by the Knights of Ren as well as Kylo so it will still be diluted. In addition, I believe that Snoke dieing cancelled out Luke dieing. Unless Rey has an army of Broom Boys there is no reason, even through the lens of Rian Johnson's NuCanon, for Rey to lose her overpowered status.

In a way yes but I think Luke's "off the grid" status can still be used to explain why the Force moved his portion of the "balance" over to Rey. Snoke seemed to state as much himself.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Khev -- you've lost it. You're portioning out the Force. I don't believe this. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

You know way more about the Force than Rian would ever want to. Don't fall for his half assed explanations to an OCD audience that likes things organized... and balanced.

It just takes one good movie to rewrite everything once again.

 

[jal76]

And yet, even in that pure, "lots of good discussion" context......







"TLJ haters." Hmmm.




I spent all of ten seconds. Looks like you spent the full minute.



Caught red-handed - aaandddd... let's see which dodge-distract-move-on option we go with. Yep, it's option C: "you have SO much time on your hands!" sarcasm + "I feel sorry for you."

Always a solid choice (especially if you spend a TON of time on Freaks AND in the same thread as the person you're calling out with the "accomplishing things in real life" put-down)

Moral of the story: if you're integral part of a conflict, don't declare yourself above it.






Even after scorched earth there will (presumably) be tiny sprouts of new growth. Even from 100% destruction must come... something. And that can, in a way, be exciting?

An empty room has much possibility... is that the point?

Blah, blah, word vomit, too long...can you just go ahead and start that "Unresolved Thread Arguments of Yesteryear" thread for all of this...why do you have to spam all over the thread for this movie...revisit all of this stuff in a thread for an older movie that people are not still talking about...oh, and I feel sorry for you too...

 

[Khev]

Khev -- you've lost it.

Yes, you say that because I like a movie that you hate. But eh, entertaining hypothetical musings based on new aspects of the expanding narrative is part of the fun IMO. Nothing that I suggested contradicts anything from the OT and in fact helps tie in not only the ST but the PT as well (not that I care about including the latter since I reject it for other reasons.) Would I look for all the ways that Rian Johnson's ideas "fit" into the OT if I hated the film as you do? Of course not. But we all connect the dots and/or wave our hands at things that are either vague or even inconsistent depending on our own specific preferences and little more.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Yes, you say that because I like a movie that you hate. But eh, entertaining hypothetical musings based on new aspects of the expanding narrative is part of the fun IMO. Nothing that I suggested contradicts anything from the OT and in fact helps tie in not only the ST but the PT as well (not that I care about including the latter since I reject it for other reasons.) Would I look for all the ways that Rian Johnson's idea "fit" into the OT if I hated the film as you do? Of course not. But we all connect the dots and/or wave our hands at inconsistencies depending on our own specific preferences and little more.

Not true on hating the film as my reasoning. I'm much more rationale than that.

I just don't think a simple encapsulation like that benefits the world. I didn't like Midichlorians either for that reason, so try to see it from that perspective.

Here's my justification: Immediate balance is too simple. How could there be "Dark Times"...? If the Force must always be balanced at any given moment then something terrible would have to occur always when something good happens -- win the war against evil? Impossible. So why fight? I think the balance comes over time - you can have great periods of darkness, followed by periods of light. It’s like flipping a coin. You need to look long term for the balance.

 

[TaliBane]

Blah, blah, word vomit, too long...can you just go ahead and start that "Unresolved Thread Arguments of Yesteryear" thread for all of this...why do you have to spam all over the thread for this movie...revisit all of this stuff in a thread for an older movie that people are not still talking about...oh, and I feel sorry for you too...

A nice sardonic blend of option B and C (option B being the mocking of length of posts) can sometimes help with a dodge-distract-move-on too.

We really need to officially enshrine the dodge-distract-move-on options into the Forum rules.

But no, the only think worth "revisiting" is the TRUTH, my friend:

Moral of the story: if you're an integral part of a conflict, don't declare yourself above it.

You tried it, you got called on it, and you got busted.

We clear and all good now?

 

[Khev]

Not true on hating the film as my reasoning. I'm much more rationale than that.

I just don't think a simple encapsulation like that benefits the world. I didn't like Midichlorians either for that reason, so try to see it from that perspective.

Here's my justification: Immediate balance is too simple. How could there be "Dark Times"...? If the Force must always be balanced at any given moment then something terrible would have to occur always when something good happens -- win the war against evil? Impossible. So why fight? I think the balance comes over time - you can have great periods of darkness, followed by periods of light. It’s like flipping a coin. You need to look long term for the balance.

Well I didn't specify that the Force must always be in balance every given second. "Dark rises, and light to meet it" (and vice versa) can still be a process that takes years, decades or centuries. I'm fine with it sometimes taking 100 years and sometimes taking only 10 years. I was just theorizing how it might play out in Episode IX without having any idea of how much time they will say has passed since TLJ while also reconciling a better reason (in my own mind anyway, lol) for why the Sith would always deliberately limit their own numbers to no more than two.

I think it lends itself to a more interesting strategy behind the Sith cannibalizing themselves beyond the notion that they just do it because they're nothing more than bad guys who can't get along.

 

[jal76]

A nice sardonic blend of option B and C (option B being the mocking of length of posts) can sometimes help with a dodge-distract-move-on too.

We really need to officially enshrine the dodge-distract-move-on options into the Forum rules.

But no, the only think worth "revisiting" is the TRUTH, my friend:



You tried it, you got called on it, and you got busted.

We clear and all good now?

Sooo....you really don't have anything to say regarding the topic of this thread do you...?

 

[Wor-Gar]

Well I didn't specify that the Force must always be in balance every given second. "Dark rises, and light to meet it" (and vice versa) can still be a process that takes years, decades or centuries. I'm fine with it sometimes taking 100 years and sometimes taking only 10 years. I was just theorizing how it might play out in Episode IX without having any idea of how much time they will say has passed since TLJ while also reconciling a better reason (in my own mind anyway, lol) for why the Sith would always deliberately limit their own numbers to no more than two.

I gotcha. Theorizing is fine. I was just pointing out how, for me, it just gets too... convenient.

I like to think of the Force as tides... sweeping in and sweeping out...

 

[Khev]

I gotcha. Theorizing is fine. I was just pointing out how, for me, it just gets too... convenient.

I like to think of the Force as tides... sweeping in and sweeping out...

Me too. And the more room a surfer has when that wave comes in (ie less people to share it with) the more freedom he has to make it his own plaything.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I have no rules -- or understanding -- on how a Sith or Jedi harnesses such energy, nor how that "drains" it from anyone else. I don't really subscribe to the "draining" aspect though, if that's a thing. Seems like one little person in an entire galaxy would have relatively endless energy to draw from for his simple purposes and wouldn't really "drain" anything. I guess I have a problem conceiving of being able to "use up" the energy.

I don't know, in the end, I like the Force to have... mystery.