Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Popnfresh98]

Yes that scene had a lot of Freudian underpinnings for Rian...

Time will tell I think.

I don't think replacing Kennedy now will "save" the franchise in time for Ep IX. Nobody outside hardcore fans know who Kennedy is, neither do they care who Kennedy is. If the brand was truly damaged by TLJ, it doesn't matter who's at the top of the helm. It'll be like DCEU all over again (MoS - BvS - JL).

True, only time will tell. I don’t know how big the ‘boycott’ actually was because it’s a hard thing to quantify, but I’m sure it had some effect, as I know many who would’ve seen it skipped out. But it’s true there was little interest in the first place.

Regarding ep 9 I know many say it’s going to fail - but everyone forgets they have JJ at the helm. And I don’t mean that in a ‘he’s such a great filmmaker’ way - quite the opposite, I think he’s a terrible writer and director - but because his real talent lies in marketing. He knows how to market the hell out of anything and what angle to come from to create hype. Based upon that alone I think ep 9 has a better shot than many think. And that’s where a ‘real boycott’ could make a difference. But we’ll have to wait 1.5 years to see.

As for Kennedy, I’m not so sure how fast she’ll be let go, I never trust ‘sources’ as they mean nothing. The blame for solo does fall squarely on her shoulders but I think it’d be a stupid move to let her go before ep 9 as it shows a lack of confidence in the current way the franchise is being run. I don’t think they’ll want to do that, but who knows. Either way, I’m going to have fun with it until then lol

Appreciate the good conversation!

 

[Vault Boy]

Winner! Punk *** beta cuck SOB.

 

[Khev]

Just watched TLJ for the first time since Solo.

I'm actually surprised how well it held up. Comparing it to Solo retroactively before watching it again made it seem like its flaws were much more annoying than they are. TLJ works very well as its own thing. Yes it continues the Rebels/Empire conflict that was so hard fought and then resolved in ROTJ. Yes it ends on a sad note for pretty much all three main heroes. Yes the humor doesn't really jive with the rest of the Saga and yes the gratuitous shots of 100% female extras (no joke it really is 100% in several cases--when Poe is calling Holdo a coward it cuts to Holdo, then big nose lady, then Billie Lourd and three other ladies at computer terminals) does make me shake my head.

However if you can allow SW to be equal parts silly and sad and can allow the Resistance to be made up of mostly chicks for whatever reason then I can't deny that TLJ is still a very well made film. The military tactics are still goofy but now I'm realizing that TLJ kind of plays more like a GotG flick in that regard. Hux is like the gold lady from GotG2 who is formal, easily offended, in charge of a buttload of ships that give merry chase to the heroes but is ultimately hard to take, and not really *meant* to take too seriously. Okay fine. Not really the "SW way" per se after the likes of Vader, Tarkin, and everyone but after eight live-action films I'm fine with a GotG-style romp as something different.

I totally get why others wouldn't be on board with that though. At least TLJ doesn't *look* like a GotG movie with it's gorgeous 35mm/IMAX film footage and so many real locations and practical sets. But it does have a really nice sequence of the good guys being seemingly on the ropes when Rey is captured, Finn and Rose are captured, and the FO is blowing up the transports. I had forgotten just how dire that particular moment was for them which greatly helped the FO seem much less incompetent.

I still like all the Luke stuff, still think the action is fun to watch in spite of the silliness, still think that pretty much everyone's acting is good to great across the board.

Interestingly enough after watching "Solo" Han seems to be an even more impactful hero on the fate of the galaxy than even before. When Rey showed up in the Falcon on Crait and rescued everyone I couldn't help but realize just how important that second Sabaac game would be to the fate of the galaxy for decades to come.

I do wish that Rian Johnson would just shut up, stop tweeting, etc. Let the movie just stand on it's own without trying to explain and defend every decision he made. Or defend and even counter-attack the trolls. In doing that he's really escalated the "personal" investment that many people have had in trying to tear this movie down (and by extension Solo and whatever else.) Let the movie stand on it's own and defend itself. If a certain segment of the fanbase wants to put on their ***** hats and march against LFL headquarters then just let them.

The movie still works for me so I'm good. Very curious not so much to see what happens in Episode IX but rather to see if Abrams can actually make me *care* what happens in Episode IX. Because that does seem to be a common denominator with both the fans and the bashers. That either way the ST feels pretty wrapped up already with no classic OT characters to journey alongside with.

 

[JAWS]

Looks like Disney has a White problem also..

 

[Popnfresh98]

Looks like Disney has a White problem also..

He’s a pretty funny guy, thanks for sharing that. Makes a good point too

 

[Khev]

He’s a pretty funny guy, thanks for sharing that. Makes a good point too

Yes and I think it's a good sign that Disney didn't double down on Rose Tico/casino stuff in the blu-ray marketing. Reminds me of the TPM 3D theatrical release where all the TV spots focused on Darth Maul. Obviously the movie is the movie at this point but by them highlighting all the best stuff it at least implies that Disney/LFL has a finger on the pulse of what *everybody* enjoys about SW which can be an encouraging sign from here on out.

 

[Vault Boy]

If only...

 

[JAWS]

Just watched TLJ for the first time since Solo.

I'm actually surprised how well it held up. Comparing it to Solo retroactively before watching it again made it seem like its flaws were much more annoying than they are. TLJ works very well as its own thing. Yes it continues the Rebels/Empire conflict that was so hard fought and then resolved in ROTJ. Yes it ends on a sad note for pretty much all three main heroes. Yes the humor doesn't really jive with the rest of the Saga and yes the gratuitous shots of 100% female extras (no joke it really is 100% in several cases--when Poe is calling Holdo a coward it cuts to Holdo, then big nose lady, then Billie Lourd and three other ladies at computer terminals) does make me shake my head.

However if you can allow SW to be equal parts silly and sad and can allow the Resistance to be made up of mostly chicks for whatever reason then I can't deny that TLJ is still a very well made film. The military tactics are still goofy but now I'm realizing that TLJ kind of plays more like a GotG flick in that regard. Hux is like the gold lady from GotG2 who is formal, easily offended, in charge of a buttload of ships that give merry chase to the heroes but is ultimately hard to take, and not really *meant* to take too seriously. Okay fine. Not really the "SW way" per se after the likes of Vader, Tarkin, and everyone but after eight live-action films I'm fine with a GotG-style romp as something different.

I totally get why others wouldn't be on board with that though. At least TLJ doesn't *look* like a GotG movie with it's gorgeous 35mm/IMAX film footage and so many real locations and practical sets. But it does have a really nice sequence of the good guys being seemingly on the ropes when Rey is captured, Finn and Rose are captured, and the FO is blowing up the transports. I had forgotten just how dire that particular moment was for them which greatly helped the FO seem much less incompetent.

I still like all the Luke stuff, still think the action is fun to watch in spite of the silliness, still think that pretty much everyone's acting is good to great across the board.

Interestingly enough after watching "Solo" Han seems to be an even more impactful hero on the fate of the galaxy than even before. When Rey showed up in the Falcon on Crait and rescued everyone I couldn't help but realize just how important that second Sabaac game would be to the fate of the galaxy for decades to come.

I do wish that Rian Johnson would just shut up, stop tweeting, etc. Let the movie just stand on it's own without trying to explain and defend every decision he made. Or defend and even counter-attack the trolls. In doing that he's really escalated the "personal" investment that many people have had in trying to tear this movie down. Let the movie stand on it's own and defend itself. If a certain segment of the fanbase wants to put on their p.enis hats and march against LFL headquarters then just let them.

The movie still works for me so I'm good. Very curious not so much to see what happens in Episode IX but rather to see if Abrams can actually make me *care* what happens in Episode IX. Because that does seem to be a common denominator with both the fans and the bashers. That either way the ST feels pretty wrapped up already with no classic OT characters to journey alongside with.

You are again kicked out of the Cool Kids club


Khev.. Following Rant has nothing to do with what you just posted

TLJ is a film that is never as bad as my memory of it. I can find things to enjoy.. But that is truly a case of Nostalgia for this film... I can find things to enjoy because "Star Wars" but if you took out all the tie fighters, x-wing fighters and Luke.. Well then all I am left with is a pretty poorly written script and poor character development.

Rian Johnson can try and defend this film but truth of the matter is (and he knows it) is that he ****ed up. No ands, ifs, or buts.

HE did the impossible. He made half of the SW fans not care about Star Wars anymore. He divided the fans like no one else has. Sure the PT had its issues.. But people looked forward to what Lucas was going to do next. And while the PT is a flawed mess.. It was always Star Wars and always knew it was Star Wars.

The argument that TLJ is good because it tried to be different and surprising is like saying you should be happy that your wife cheated on you because you never saw it coming. Of course that is not the case.. Different and surprising is only good when its a good thing.. If it sucks.. Well it sucks.


Disney, Johnson, and KK make things worse by trying to blame the White male fans... And yet that can no explain why RO did so well or that Solo did so poorly.

Personally I have issues with the ST period. TLJ just put the nail in the coffin because it could not or would not choose to build off the ideas of TFA.

Why anyone can be forgiving of Rey's ridiculously powerful force powers if just strange to me. I actually think its worse then the midichlorians explanation.. I can at least ignore those couple of stupid lines... Rey just keeps on doing things that should not be possible with what has been established in other films. I hate the explanation of the "balance of the Force" which again is at least as bad as Midichlorians... It was a lazy way to explain Rey's abilities so Rian could have another "surprise" moment.

TLJ is a better made film then TFA but it could have helped TFA be a better film. Instead we are where we left off but with no explanations and not a care in the world for the characters.



Also I just watched a video stating that the Home video sales for TLJ are half of what TFA were.... Guess those RT score where not bots after all.

 

[JAWS]

Yes and I think it's a good sign that Disney didn't double down on Rose Tico/casino stuff in the blu-ray marketing. Reminds me of the TPM 3D theatrical release where all the TV spots focused on Darth Maul. Obviously the movie is the movie at this point but by them highlighting all the best stuff it at least implies that Disney/LFL has a finger on the pulse of what *everybody* enjoys about SW which can be an encouraging sign from here on out.

I still don't trust them... I think they will double down on the crap they think White males hate.

Oh well.. Bring on the Boi Wan and Fett film.. Maybe a Solo sequel but I don't know if that can happen.

 

[YoNoSe]

In my head canon of reality, Rian Johnson single-handedly lowered Disney stock value, causing Fox to sell to Comcast. Disney streaming fails without Fox library. SW brand roasts like porgs on the campfire - unconsumed by the shamed wookie of fandom. Johnson will be the Senator Binks in the downfall of Disney.

 

[Popnfresh98]

You are again kicked out of the Cool Kids club


Khev.. Following Rant has nothing to do with what you just posted

TLJ is a film that is never as bad as my memory of it. I can find things to enjoy.. But that is truly a case of Nostalgia for this film... I can find things to enjoy because "Star Wars" but if you took out all the tie fighters, x-wing fighters and Luke.. Well then all I am left with is a pretty poorly written script and poor character development.

Rian Johnson can try and defend this film but truth of the matter is (and he knows it) is that he ****ed up. No ands, ifs, or buts.

HE did the impossible. He made half of the SW fans not care about Star Wars anymore. He divided the fans like no one else has. Sure the PT had its issues.. But people looked forward to what Lucas was going to do next. And while the PT is a flawed mess.. It was always Star Wars and always knew it was Star Wars.

The argument that TLJ is good because it tried to be different and surprising is like saying you should be happy that your wife cheated on you because you never saw it coming. Of course that is not the case.. Different and surprising is only good when its a good thing.. If it sucks.. Well it sucks.


Disney, Johnson, and KK make things worse by trying to blame the White male fans... And yet that can no explain why RO did so well or that Solo did so poorly.

Personally I have issues with the ST period. TLJ just put the nail in the coffin because it could not or would not choose to build off the ideas of TFA.

Why anyone can be forgiving of Rey's ridiculously powerful force powers if just strange to me. I actually think its worse then the midichlorians explanation.. I can at least ignore those couple of stupid lines... Rey just keeps on doing things that should not be possible with what has been established in other films. I hate the explanation of the "balance of the Force" which again is at least as bad as Midichlorians... It was a lazy way to explain Rey's abilities so Rian could have another "surprise" moment.

TLJ is a better made film then TFA but it could have helped TFA be a better film. Instead we are where we left off but with no explanations and not a care in the world for the characters.



Also I just watched a video stating that the Home video sales for TLJ are half of what TFA were.... Guess those RT score where not bots after all.

My sentiments exactly - but more eloquently put - a well made film technically, but the content was botched in so many ways.

In my head canon of reality, Rian Johnson single-handedly lowered Disney stock value, causing Fox to sell to Comcast. Disney streaming fails without Fox library. SW brand roasts like porgs on the campfire - unconsumed by the shamed wookie of fandom. Johnson will be the Senator Binks in the downfall of Disney.

Wait... head canon? Lol I thought that’s actually what’s happening

 

[YoNoSe]

It could be for all I know. Don’t follow the market.

 

[Khev]

You are again kicked out of the Cool Kids club

That's fine because I don't recognize the Cool Kids club as canon anyway.

Khev.. Following Rant has nothing to do with what you just posted

TLJ is a film that is never as bad as my memory of it.

That is so true and a good reason that I believe TLJ discussions feature such open vitriol. It's a film that is easier to bash in retrospect but that is still fun to watch when it's on IMO.

Rian Johnson can try and defend this film but truth of the matter is (and he knows it) is that he ****ed up. No ands, ifs, or buts.

HE did the impossible. He made half of the SW fans not care about Star Wars anymore. He divided the fans like no one else has. Sure the PT had its issues.. But people looked forward to what Lucas was going to do next. And while the PT is a flawed mess.. It was always Star Wars and always knew it was Star Wars.

The argument that TLJ is good because it tried to be different and surprising is like saying you should be happy that your wife cheated on you because you never saw it coming. Of course that is not the case.. Different and surprising is only good when its a good thing.. If it sucks.. Well it sucks.


Disney, Johnson, and KK make things worse by trying to blame the White male fans... And yet that can no explain why RO did so well or that Solo did so poorly.

Personally I have issues with the ST period. TLJ just put the nail in the coffin because it could not or would not choose to build off the ideas of TFA.

I think that the greatest damage to SW fandom has come by the *personal* actions and comments of Kennedy, Johnson, and that Chuck Wendig *******, not the films themselves. I think TFA and TLJ have their flaws with some of those flaws being front and center for the world to easily see but at the end of the day are ultimately harmless enough in their own right with the good far outweighing the bad. But the way Kennedy has come across with her "I see no reason to cater to the established SW fanbase" and idiotic "The Force is Female" t-shirts and all that has directly led to a significant number of fans actively looking for signs that she is indeed trying to hijack the franchise and turn it against them. Then a harmless tracking shot of some chicks sitting at computers becomes an oppressive call to arms. And that's all on her.

Same with Rian Johnson. I remember that there were a few people who had issues with RO but Gareth never once fanned their flames or strengthened their resolve by taking their criticisms personally or openly attacking them back. Same with Ron Howard. He's just too much of a class act. All he's ever retweeted since Solo has *bombed* is a few "thanks for seeing it in theaters" to those who have commented that they liked it. That is absolutely night and day compared to Rian Johnson. When TLJ was cleaning house with rave 92% critic scores and over a billion in box office he was still so slighted by the bashers that he had to openly and constantly defend his movie and counter-attack the haters?? Compared to Howard who is graciously thanking those (very very few) fans who actually went and saw Solo? I just have to agree that Kennedy and Johnson simply need to *go*. Immediately.

Why anyone can be forgiving of Rey's ridiculously powerful force powers if just strange to me. I actually think its worse then the midichlorians explanation.. I can at least ignore those couple of stupid lines... Rey just keeps on doing things that should not be possible with what has been established in other films. I hate the explanation of the "balance of the Force" which again is at least as bad as Midichlorians... It was a lazy way to explain Rey's abilities so Rian could have another "surprise" moment.

I can forgive them because to me Rey is just very easy to compartmentalize away from the rest of the characters and galaxy. Yeah she's overpowered but to me so what. She didn't use her power to blow up Starkiller Base (that was all Han's ingenuity and Poe's skill), she didn't use her power to kill Snoke (she can thank a true Skywalker for that one) nor did she really turn the tide at Crait (final showdown was all Luke and even drawing away the TIE Fighters and making them blow up in the crystal caverns was all Chewie.) She lifted some rocks so that people could exit a cave and get into a ship flown by a Wookiee. Hardly anything to get worked up about IMO.

To me midichlorians are far worse because those 2-3 throwaway lines in the PT change the nature of the Force for *everybody.* Compared to Rey who's just an easily compartmentalized anomaly who really hasn't impacted the overall Saga that much in the grand scheme of things.

Hopefully Abrams does make an actual effort to give a better explanation to her abilities or at least have enough time pass that we can all believe that she legitimately learned the ways of the Force from Leia and the ancient texts before the events of Episode IX play out on screen.

 

[JAWS]

My sentiments exactly - but more eloquently put - a well made film technically, but the content was botched in so many ways.

Thanks!

I'm just glad somebody read it

 

[ajp4mgs]

I still like all the Luke stuff, still think the action is fun to watch in spite of the silliness, still think that pretty much everyone's acting is good to great across the board.

Same here. The Luke (plus Rey/Kylo/Snoke) story saved the movie for me in the theater; and multiple re-watching hasn't changed that. The ill-suited comedic efforts, the lightsaber toss, the SJW influence, and everything having to do with Canto Bight had me wanting to walk out halfway through on opening day. The Luke story kept me there and allowed me to overlook the nonsense and annoying elements enough to be pleased overall. And the throne room scene with how the Kylo/Snoke stuff played out blew me away. One of my favorite SW scenes of all time. People can say it's derivative of the ROTJ throne room scene all they want, but I thought it was outstanding in how it was filmed and performed by everyone involved (minus one gaffe with one of the guards being edited so that his weapon disappears behind Rey - but I didn't notice it until pointed out later).

I wish that a Star Wars movie hadn't turned off (and even angered) so many fans. I wish Johnson and Kennedy had cared more for what the fan base would strongly object to. And I can completely understand why TLJ pisses people off so much. But, for me, the ST so far has given me what I needed most after the prequels. The three PT movies embarrassed me as a fan. There's no other way to put it. I was embarrassed by the stories, the dialogue, the acting, and the use of Star Wars as a playground for CGI that did nothing more than create deeply regrettable characters and visuals. I never want to have to sit through something as insulting to my Star Wars sensibilities as the prequels ever again. The ST hasn't given me that deep of a disappointed feeling so far.

IMO, the ST has delivered better dialogue, much better acting, better visuals, better effects, and better new characters than the PT. Knowing so many fellow fans hate TLJ makes me wish that the movie had been done differently, but selfishly I appreciate what it did to wash the PT taste out of my mouth.

 

[JAWS]

That's fine because I don't recognize the Cool Kids club as canon anyway.

You will be missed

That is so true and a good reason that I believe TLJ discussions feature such open vitriol. It's a film that is easier to bash in retrospect but that is still fun to watch when it's on IMO.

I find it enjoyable because I like Hamill in it. The Snoke death and Light speed attack are cool moments but Hamill is the glue for this film

Even though I am not crazy about what they did with the character.. I loved and love seeing Hamill as Luke.

Begins and ends for me there.

 

[crows]

In my head canon of reality, Rian Johnson single-handedly lowered Disney stock value, causing Fox to sell to Comcast. Disney streaming fails without Fox library. SW brand roasts like porgs on the campfire - unconsumed by the shamed wookie of fandom. Johnson will be the Senator Binks in the downfall of Disney.

thats kind of impressive actually. kind of amazing if he MEANT to do this... it becomes more ******** if he DIDNT mean to make all this happen and it happened because of his incompetence.

he single handedly took down a corporation's business with fox and destroyed a beloved 40 year old franchise................all with ONE movie.....

Rian really is a sith lord.... Vader... even the emperor himself wish they were this evil and this competent at destroying things....

 

[JAWS]

I think that the greatest damage to SW fandom has come by the *personal* actions and comments of Kennedy, Johnson, and that Chuck Wendig *******, not the films themselves. I think TFA and TLJ have their flaws with some of those flaws being front and center for the world to easily see but at the end of the day are ultimately harmless enough in their own right. But the way Kennedy has come across with her "I see no reason to cater to the established SW fanbase" and idiotic "The Force is Female" t-shirts and all that has directly led to a significant number of fans actively looking for signs that she is indeed trying to hijack the franchise and turn it against them. Then a harmless tracking shot of come chicks sitting at computers becomes an oppressive call to arms. And that's all on her.

Same with Rian Johnson. I remember that there were a few people who had issues with RO but Gareth never once fanned their flames or strengthened their resolve by taking their criticisms personally or openly attacking them back. Same with Ron Howard. He's just too much of a class act. All he's ever retweeted since Solo has *bombed* is a few "thanks for seeing it in theaters" to those who have commented that they liked it. That is absolutely night and day compared to Rian Johnson. When TLJ was cleaning house with rave 92% critic scores and over a billion in box office he was still so slighted by the bashers that he had to openly and constantly defend his movie and counter-attack the haters?? Compared to Howard who is graciously thanking those (very very few) fans who actually went and saw Solo? I just have to agree that Kennedy and Johnson simply need to *go*. Immediately.​

KK and Johnson did not help matters at all.

There is enough proof out there that female fans had all the same issues as the male fans and that the dislike of this film cover all races.

 

[JAWS]

I can forgive them because to me Rey is just very easy to compartmentalize away from the rest of the characters and galaxy. Yeah she's overpowered but to me so what. She didn't use her power to blow up Starkiller Base (that was all Han's ingenuity and Poe's skill), she didn't use her power to kill Snoke (she can thank a true Skywalker for that one) nor did she really turn the tide at Crait (final showdown was all Luke and even drawing away the TIE Fighters and making them blow up in the crystal caverns was all Chewie.) She lifted some rocks so that people could exit a cave and get into a ship flown by a Wookiee. Hardly anything to get worked up about IMO.

To me midichlorians are far worse because those 2-3 throwaway lines in the PT change the nature of the Force for *everybody.* Compared to Rey who's just an easily compartmentalized anomaly who really hasn't impacted the overall Saga that much in the grand scheme of things.

Hopefully Abrams does make an actual effort to give a better explanation to her abilities or at least have enough time pass that we can all believe that she legitimately learned the ways of the Force from Leia and the ancient texts before the events of Episode IX play out on screen.

If Abrams can pull something of an explanation off it will help TFA and her character a lot. Would like to know where the saber came form also. Rather then just "reason"

I can ignore Midiclorians as just Jedi "Bad Science" ​

But now we know anyone and everyone can be special so I guess that is proof that it was Bad science after all ​

Rey's abilities are an issue because they weaken the main villain.. I mean she beat him once and had a stand still the second time.

She is the main character of these films so her abilities and how and why she has them are important.​

 

[Khev]

Same here. The Luke (plus Rey/Kylo/Snoke) story saved the movie for me in the theater; and multiple re-watching hasn't changed that. The ill-suited comedic efforts, the lightsaber toss, the SJW influence, and everything having to do with Canto Bight had me wanting to walk out halfway through on opening day. The Luke story kept me there and allowed me to overlook the nonsense and annoying elements enough to be pleased overall. And the throne room scene with how the Kylo/Snoke stuff played out blew me away. One of my favorite SW scenes of all time. People can say it's derivative of the ROTJ throne room scene all they want, but I thought it was outstanding in how it was filmed and performed by everyone involved

Absolutely. The entire Snoke throne scene is absolutely fantastic from beginning to end.

I wish that a Star Wars movie hadn't turned off (and even angered) so many fans. I wish Johnson and Kennedy had cared more for what the fan base would strongly object to. And I can completely understand why TLJ pisses people off so much.

Agreed.

But, for me, the ST so far has given me what I needed most after the prequels. The three PT movies embarrassed me as a fan. There's no other way to put it. I was embarrassed by the stories, the dialogue, the acting, and the use of Star Wars as a playground for CGI that did nothing more than create deeply regrettable characters and visuals. I never want to have to sit through something as insulting to my Star Wars sensibilities as the prequels ever again. The ST hasn't given me that deep of a disappointed feeling so far.

SO true!!

jye's one comment about how the mere act of watching AOTC makes him feel like a loser is both hilarious and 100% true. I almost can't think of a more embarrassing movie to have someone walk in on me watching that AOTC or ROTS. Not so with the ST. At all. Sure they have drawn ire from however many fans and those offended by the assumed SJW politics but the movies themselves are still fun, cool, well acted and exciting enough that they're largely accessible to pretty much anyone who likes big popcorn event movies which hasn't happened since before the PT. And for that I'm incredibly thankful to the current powers that be at LFL. It sucked having the PT basically turn the entire Saga into another "Star Trek" that only losers and super nerds were into.