Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[YoNoSe]

I honestly think if a movie entertained you the first time it's done it's job, regardless of if you started hating it after for whatever reasons

Yeah, I’ve never walked out of a theater feeling cheated. But I also didn’t see mother! in a theater.

 

[crows]

If a movie entertains you for 10 years then it did its job regardless of any shortcomings, perceived or not.

I still love the movie visually.
But matrix 2 destroys the plot and motives or matrix 1. Ruins the ending of matrix 1 and ruins characters motivations.
Matrix 2 makes the agents seem insane and incoherent. Makes the oracle incoherent.


If the one is so important for the machines to restart the matrix. Why would u sent 3 killing machines after him. Why risk him getting hurt.
If they knew they needed neo to help the machines then why send smith to deal with cypher for the zion codes?
Why did they need the zion codes? They have destroyed zion 6 times. They know where it is.

If they needed neo to choose to restart zion and the matrix, why send the agents after trinity. Why get trinity killed?
Neo would have chosen to fix the matrix if trinity could go with him.

Why have the agents try to kill the keymaker if neo needed the keymaker to reach the architect.
Why have buildings full of bombs if they need neo to reach the architect
Why let smith shoot neo at the end of the first one if they needed him to be alive

Why send the sentinels to kill the crew if they need neo.lin the first one
Why have the sentinels to send bombs into ships if they need neo to reach the architect.
Why even dig to zion if neo is meant to restart everything. Why allow zion to have big doors
Why not create secret doors to enter zion.

Matrix 2 might be the worst sequel ever written because it ruins the plot of the first. Destroys the motives of the agents and of the machines.

The last jedi did the same not only to force awakens but to the whole framchise.

You cant watch matrix 2 without seeing how every single scene and character is incoherent and nonsensical. How matrix 2 conflicts against everything matrix 1 said.

Rian did the same

 

[YoNoSe]

No he definitely doesn't have to keep reading it, but there's a thing called professionalism, which Lucas and Howard have displayed but Johnson has not.

True - hopefully it’s a learning experience but the classier thing would be to ignore.

 

[crows]

Everything TFA tried to set up was discarded by Rian Johnson. Rey's background? Meaningless. Snoke? Dead. The character's relationship to each other? Rey, Poe, and Finn didn't even speak to each other throughout the whole movie.

What about the overarching Resistance v. First Order story? Who knows? Who is supposed to be the big bad now that Snoke is dead? Kylo? Nobody even believes Kylo is a villain, not even Rey. General Hux is a punch line to make fun of white men.

Whoever makes episode 9 is in a major hole plotwise. Nobody gives a **** about these characters. You have to simultaneously introduce new facts/challenges to make them interesting, and then resolve their story in the same film.

It's going to feel rushed as hell. Prepare to see a sloppy exposition on Rey's "real" background in the third movie, as well as a forced romantic plot between two of the main characters. Also, I have no clue what the ending is supposed to be for this trilogy. In the original trilogy it was clear that the good guys wanted to overthrow the empire and defeat vader.

I guess the good ending is defeating the empire (again) and defeating kylo? Will anybody even care?

This trilogy feels like two kids are taking turns writing a story for a school project. It has no direction and it's hamstrung because of it.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Everything TFA tried to set up was discarded by Rian Johnson. Rey's background? Meaningless.

My hope/expectation is that Rey is a Skywalker (maybe Leia's secret child sent away for fear of being corrupted). Being a Skywalker makes her seemingly-limitless ease of mastering Force abilities more palatable. Also makes the Skywalker lightsaber "speaking" to her in TFA seem a bit less random and bizarre. Also makes Leia hugging her while ignoring Chewie after Han died easier to understand. Also makes sending/trusting this random girl to go retrieve Luke make more sense. Also makes Rey feeling Luke's dying the same way that Leia did make sense. Kylo could have just lied to her, or been seeing things incompletely. The cave in TLJ that didn't reveal her true lineage was connected with the dark side of the Force; of course it would lie to her too.

Snoke? Dead.

Snoke was a useful pawn to re-establish the power of the Empire. Used by who? My hope (and mine alone . . . I know) is Vader. The happy Anakin ghost at the end of ROTJ is too cheesy for me. Killing scores of innocent Jedi (and others) as Vader, then just throwing Palps down the pit, shouldn't get you an instant pass into the benevolent Jedi spirit club. I want evil Vader pulling the strings. I want spirit Vader actually guiding Kylo, and not just metaphorically. I want Luke's dejection in TLJ to be due in part to some glimpse of his father's re-emergence as the Dark Lord. Why? Because Vader is best when bad. Never been a better villain (until the PT). Probably never going to be a better one.

The character's relationship to each other? Rey, Poe, and Finn didn't even speak to each other throughout the whole movie.

Who cares? Daisy wants no part of any future SW films anyway. And Luke spent how much time on screen with Leia and Han in ESB? Or even in ROTJ, for that matter? One movie in the ST with Rey, Finn, and Poe together for some shared screen time will be enough.

What about the overarching Resistance v. First Order story? Who knows? Who is supposed to be the big bad now that Snoke is dead? Kylo? Nobody even believes Kylo is a villain, not even Rey.

The Resistance will get help (Lando among them) in combatting the First Order. That's still an overarching plot. Kylo is Vader's grandson, and still trying to fulfill Vader's destiny. Rey might hopefully be Vader's granddaughter and try fulfilling Anakin & Luke's destiny. To the victor will go the spoils. And since Disney won't have the grapefruits to let Vader win, Kylo will turn in the end.

Will any of this happen? No. Would any of this make fans happy? No. But I hope it shows how TLJ didn't really prevent anything from being possible. Rey Skywalker, ghost Luke, ghost Vader, Lando, Knights of Ren . . . There's lots of places the last chapter in the Skywalker Saga can go. JJ just needs to remember that the "Skywalker" part of the Skywalker Saga should be the focus in wrapping this up. I think he'll do better than people are expecting.

Or not. To quote John Rambo: "Nothing is over!"

 

[Darth Snoopy]

Though I did just have Snoop change it to say:

 

[crows]

My hope/expectation is that Rey is a Skywalker (maybe Leia's secret child sent away for fear of being corrupted). Being a Skywalker makes her seemingly-limitless ease of mastering Force abilities more palatable. Also makes the Skywalker lightsaber "speaking" to her in TFA seem a bit less random and bizarre. Also makes Leia hugging her while ignoring Chewie after Han died easier to understand. Also makes sending/trusting this random girl to go retrieve Luke make more sense. Also makes Rey feeling Luke's dying the same way that Leia did make sense. Kylo could have just lied to her, or been seeing things incompletely. The cave in TLJ that didn't reveal her true lineage was connected with the dark side of the Force; of course it would lie to her too.



Snoke was a useful pawn to re-establish the power of the Empire. Used by who? My hope (and mine alone . . . I know) is Vader. The happy Anakin ghost at the end of ROTJ is too cheesy for me. Killing scores of innocent Jedi (and others) as Vader, then just throwing Palps down the pit, shouldn't get you an instant pass into the benevolent Jedi spirit club. I want evil Vader pulling the strings. I want spirit Vader actually guiding Kylo, and not just metaphorically. I want Luke's dejection in TLJ to be due in part to some glimpse of his father's re-emergence as the Dark Lord. Why? Because Vader is best when bad. Never been a better villain (until the PT). Probably never going to be a better one.



Who cares? Daisy wants no part of any future SW films anyway. And Luke spent how much time on screen with Leia and Han in ESB? Or even in ROTJ, for that matter? One movie in the ST with Rey, Finn, and Poe together for some shared screen time will be enough.



The Resistance will get help (Lando among them) in combatting the First Order. That's still an overarching plot. Kylo is Vader's grandson, and still trying to fulfill Vader's destiny. Rey might hopefully be Vader's granddaughter and try fulfilling Anakin & Luke's destiny. To the victor will go the spoils. And since Disney won't have the grapefruits to let Vader win, Kylo will turn in the end.

Will any of this happen? No. Would any of this make fans happy? No. But I hope it shows how TLJ didn't really prevent anything from being possible. Rey Skywalker, ghost Luke, ghost Vader, Lando, Knights of Ren . . . There's lots of places the last chapter in the Skywalker Saga can go. JJ just needs to remember that the "Skywalker" part of the Skywalker Saga should be the focus in wrapping this up. I think he'll do better than people are expecting.

Or not. To quote John Rambo: "Nothing is over!"

So basically Episode 9 has to erase what rian jonson did. And contradict what he wrote.
So my post is still correct. They are gonna have to come up with a bunch of stuff to fix the timeline and fix the damage rian did.

You are basically agreeing that episode 9 is in a difficult position.

There needs to be a villain and kylo is no vader. Kylo cant carry episode 9.
Hux maybe could be the villain but rian made him a punching bag and a mockery

 

[crows]

Even if episode nine turns out to be a decent movie, so much has happened already to turn people off, I don’t think there’s any saving it. Even Star Wars fans are burned out on all the drama. Disney will make it anyway, there’s no way they won’t. But after that, their best option might be to give Star Wars a rest for a few years, and then either do a reboot or something completely different with it.

Is there any franchise where the second movie was total trash but the third was really good????????
Ever?

 

[ironwez20]

My hope/expectation is that Rey is a Skywalker (maybe Leia's secret child sent away for fear of being corrupted). Being a Skywalker makes her seemingly-limitless ease of mastering Force abilities more palatable. Also makes the Skywalker lightsaber "speaking" to her in TFA seem a bit less random and bizarre. Also makes Leia hugging her while ignoring Chewie after Han died easier to understand. Also makes sending/trusting this random girl to go retrieve Luke make more sense. Also makes Rey feeling Luke's dying the same way that Leia did make sense. Kylo could have just lied to her, or been seeing things incompletely. The cave in TLJ that didn't reveal her true lineage was connected with the dark side of the Force; of course it would lie to her too.



Snoke was a useful pawn to re-establish the power of the Empire. Used by who? My hope (and mine alone . . . I know) is Vader. The happy Anakin ghost at the end of ROTJ is too cheesy for me. Killing scores of innocent Jedi (and others) as Vader, then just throwing Palps down the pit, shouldn't get you an instant pass into the benevolent Jedi spirit club. I want evil Vader pulling the strings. I want spirit Vader actually guiding Kylo, and not just metaphorically. I want Luke's dejection in TLJ to be due in part to some glimpse of his father's re-emergence as the Dark Lord. Why? Because Vader is best when bad. Never been a better villain (until the PT). Probably never going to be a better one.



Who cares? Daisy wants no part of any future SW films anyway. And Luke spent how much time on screen with Leia and Han in ESB? Or even in ROTJ, for that matter? One movie in the ST with Rey, Finn, and Poe together for some shared screen time will be enough.



The Resistance will get help (Lando among them) in combatting the First Order. That's still an overarching plot. Kylo is Vader's grandson, and still trying to fulfill Vader's destiny. Rey might hopefully be Vader's granddaughter and try fulfilling Anakin & Luke's destiny. To the victor will go the spoils. And since Disney won't have the grapefruits to let Vader win, Kylo will turn in the end.

Will any of this happen? No. Would any of this make fans happy? No. But I hope it shows how TLJ didn't really prevent anything from being possible. Rey Skywalker, ghost Luke, ghost Vader, Lando, Knights of Ren . . . There's lots of places the last chapter in the Skywalker Saga can go. JJ just needs to remember that the "Skywalker" part of the Skywalker Saga should be the focus in wrapping this up. I think he'll do better than people are expecting.

Or not. To quote John Rambo: "Nothing is over!"

Lol no dude it’s over. There’s no place they can take this.the heroes suck the villains suck, the fan base is split. Star Wars is bombing. The only way to save this franchise is a reboot, a soft one. I’m talking yrs into the future. A new threat emerges. Rey needs a complete character overhaul if she is to be up there or remembered. They need to rethink the crap of the next one cause two yrs later isn’t gonna cut it. They need redo everything but not make it obvious. Only a handful of people like this new ST they desperately need to change that

 

[ironwez20]

Is there any franchise where the second movie was total trash but the third was really good????????
Ever?

It happened with the prequels. Could happen here. Rots is regarded as the best Star Wars prequels and most non die hard ot fans put it up before rotj. I hated stack of the clones but loved rots .

 

[spindrift]

Is there any franchise where the second movie was total trash but the third was really good????????
Ever?

nope....but this can be a first

 

[ironwez20]

Like I said you need to soft reboot it. Have it set a few yrs in the future.

 

[ajp4mgs]

So basically Episode 9 has to erase what rian jonson did. And contradict what he wrote.
So my post is still correct. They are gonna have to come up with a bunch of stuff to fix the timeline and fix the damage rian did.

You are basically agreeing that episode 9 is in a difficult position.

There needs to be a villain and kylo is no vader. Kylo cant carry episode 9.
Hux maybe could be the villain but rian made him a punching bag and a mockery

Fans who are disgusted with TLJ will see it as undoing and fixing what Johnson did. Others will see it as TLJ setting up misdirections to keep fans off the scent. Personally, I don't care how it's perceived as long as Ep IX leaves things in a way that is satisfying.

As much as many fans would like to believe that the OT was thoroughly planned-out in advance and that nothing was made up or changed on the spot, that just wasn't the case. Leia wasn't the "other Skywalker" until ROTJ planning was well underway. In fact, the whole damn ending to ROTJ was supposed to be different, but Lucas decided he didn't want to do anymore Star Wars at that point. He changed the ending to be more "final." In retrospect, that doesn't necessarily make it feel "rushed."

Yeah, Ep IX needs to win fans back. And I think it can. My larger point is that I don't think there's anything so "damaged" that it's beyond repair/reconsidering. It's an evolving story. It should have been mapped out better and more coherently, but that ship has sailed. In my opinion, with only 2/3 of the story told, the middle chapter can be perceived completely differently if the last chapter brings it all home.

TLJ might always be the most divisive movie in the franchise, but it doesn't need to be the decisive one.

 

[crows]

It happened with the prequels. Could happen here. Rots is regarded as the best Star Wars prequels and most non die hard ot fans put it up before rotj. I hated stack of the clones but loved rots .

Episode three is the best of the prequels, and is superior to episode six.

I’m not optimistic about episode nine, but if it does well and pulls the sequel trilogy together for a more satisfying experience, yes it will be despite Rian and not because of him. It would have to be some pretty fancy footwork to turn the sequel trilogy around. I don’t think they will be able to pull it off.

Anything else besides star wars?

 

[ironwez20]

No crows . But if you wanna get deep into it. Devil may cry 3 is better than the last 2

 

[crows]

No 3 movie? EVER???
EVER???


EVER?

 

[YoNoSe]

Nightmare on Elm St 3 beats part 2 with an aluminum bat.

 

[Khev]

My hope/expectation is that Rey is a Skywalker (maybe Leia's secret child sent away for fear of being corrupted). Being a Skywalker makes her seemingly-limitless ease of mastering Force abilities more palatable. Also makes the Skywalker lightsaber "speaking" to her in TFA seem a bit less random and bizarre. Also makes Leia hugging her while ignoring Chewie after Han died easier to understand. Also makes sending/trusting this random girl to go retrieve Luke make more sense. Also makes Rey feeling Luke's dying the same way that Leia did make sense. Kylo could have just lied to her, or been seeing things incompletely. The cave in TLJ that didn't reveal her true lineage was connected with the dark side of the Force; of course it would lie to her too.

This is what they can do and yes I'm borrowing a bit from Blade Runner:

1. Rey is Luke's daughter raised in the ways of the Force by Luke himself since birth.
2. This makes her stronger in the Force than Ben Solo who became Luke's pupil at a much older age.
3. Ben turned to the Dark Side and slaughtered all the other students except Rey.
4. Fearing for her life Luke used the Force to give her amnesia and replaced her memories with a fake childhood of growing up on Jakku when in reality she was sent there as a fully capable adult and kept under the watchful eye of Luke's trusted ally Max Von Sydow.
5. So that his secret could be kept hidden he not only changed Rey's memories but he erased Kylo Ren's memory of her as well as his own memories of his daughter. Only Max Von Sydow and possibly Leia know the truth. This would not only tie in with Luke closing himself off from the Force in TLJ (and thus not dismissing Rian's film) but it would also play off his failure in ROTJ to adequately hide his thoughts of his relationship to Leia from Vader. Knowing that Rey would be in danger as long as she was in his thoughts caused him to make the ultimate sacrifice and remove all knowledge of his daughter from his own mind. Again going back to Blade Runner when Deckard denied himself any link to his daughter's upbringing it was seen as a noble act of love and sacrifice.
6. Since Kylo Ren and Rey were tapping into her created memories they both wrongly believed that she was raised by nobodies which again was for her protection.

Issues that this would resolve:

1. It would explain why her mind went ape**** in TFA when she touched her father's saber with it being the first object that the two of them interacted with since her exile. Her mind was assaulted with images, some real, some implanted, all at once as her subconscious tried to make sense of what was true and what wasn't.
2. It would completely explain why she's so insanely gifted in using the Force. Her subconscious mind remembers years of training while her conscious mind does not.
3. It could explain why Han was so quick to make her a part of his crew, if she was erased from his mind then maybe a part of him felt a strange connection to her that he couldn't place. Maybe he even showed her and Ben how to fly the Falcon when they were kids (which causes yet more of her skills to be explained.)
4. It would make Snoke's line in TLJ more poetic in that he believed that he "wrongly" assumed that Skywalker would rise to face Kylo Ren when in fact he was correct. He just didn't know that there was another Skywalker which again ties back to themes from the OT up to and including Yoda showing up one last time to make sure that the one remaining Skywalker isn't lost forever.

This could all come to light in Episode IX even bring Luke back as a ghost (with all of his memories of his daughter restored) and worst case scenario have him do an exposition dump a la Ben on Dagobah in ROTJ bringing Rey up to speed on what happened. He can even be one of those fancy new ghosts that can touch living people and give his daughter a big hug, show everyone that he was always an awesome hero and that part of him going to the island to burn everything was an unforeseen byproduct of the "new" fragmented Luke that he became when he purged his own memories.

Maybe say that 5-10 years pass between TLJ and Episode IX and in that time Rey started to lose hope and didn't hone her skills while Kylo used that time to rigorously train and surpass her (in order to make their final confrontation more dramatic and satisfying.)

But after learning the truth from Luke he unlocks the rest of her memories and she gets to face Kylo (who is still stronger even with her memories restored) and kick *** and give ultimate victory to the Good Side once again, with the ghost of Luke beaming with pride and him being the badass with the master plan that came to fruition and once again the hero that everyone always knew him to be.

 

[crows]

Why so serious?

The dark knight worse than rises? ?? ? ??

Nightmare on Elm St 3 beats part 2 with an aluminum bat.

Okay thanks.
Friday the 13th 3 is better than 2 as well.

Saw 3 was much better than 2 for sure.

Some people argue that men in black 3 is better than 2

Lord of the rings 3 was better than 2

Toy story 3 better than 2

Iron man 3 better than 2

Missiin impossible 3 better than 2


I guess disney star wars can join these trolilogies as well

 

[e30ernest]

Is there any franchise where the second movie was total trash but the third was really good????????
Ever?

Well more recently, AoU wasn't really that good, but IW was great, and it also made AoU better in the process.