Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[chewblacca]

Well Star Wars has always been filled with sloppy writing moments I guess this is just another one.

 

[crows]

the suicide excuse is at least badass.....................

the burning tree failed attempt makes him pathetic. like if he kept failing at consummating his matrimony over performance issues but he kept wearing his tuxedo night after night to do it

 

[Khev]

Well the real reason is because JJ was going to portray Luke as a powerful Jedi master at the end of TFA. When Rey approached him he would be surrounded by levitating boulders and obviously not cut off from the force - hence Jedi Master outfit.

Rian didn't like this idea and went his own way. According to Mark, JJ and RJ caught the discrepancies between their different intentions for Luke whilst TFA was in post production and the levitating boulders were scrubbed.

So the LFL Retcon explanation is as Khev said above, Luke puts on his Jedi master robes when he goes to burn down the tree and the Jedi books - it's symbolic or something. Apparently he has tried to burn it all down many times but can never go through with it. Rey arrives after another failed attempt. Obviously never explained in the film because why would they when it could be inserted in the visual dictionary or novelisation instead.

Yeah I think I even chuckled the first time I saw TLJ in the theater at how quickly Luke changed out of his TFA robes since it made it feel so obvious that the new director simply didn't like them, lol. I don't think for a second that Abrams had a clear picture in mind as to why Luke was on that island though so it was all on Johnson to figure why such a powerful warrior would be sitting out the destruction of an entire solar system and the death of a dear friend. Being busy lifting rocks on the side of a secluded cliff just wasn't going to cut it.

 

[Otomofan]

the suicide excuse is at least badass.....................

the burning tree failed attempt makes him pathetic. like if he kept failing at consummating his matrimony over performance issues but he kept wearing his tuxedo night after night to do it

Oh my god, that was a masterful analogy. Thanks for searing that image in my mind!

 

[guyver1]

Disney cancels SW spinoff movies

 

[YoNoSe]

the suicide excuse is at least badass.....................

the burning tree failed attempt makes him pathetic. like if he kept failing at consummating his matrimony over performance issues but he kept wearing his tuxedo night after night to do it

His reluctance to burn the tree speaks to his true nature and the difficulty he has fully embracing his "jaded" demeanor.

Suicide is badass in zero ways.

I don't love the foundations this story is built on but for the story it IS telling about Luke, it's pretty interesting and thoughtful. And I still love the Luke/Yoda scene.

 

[YoNoSe]

Disney cancels SW spinoff movies

Maybe. Depends if you believe internetz rumors or Lucasfilm PR.

 

[dan350zr]

I expect Disney to reign in the budgets on the spinoff movies, where before they were like $200 million, expect them to be around $75-$100 million tops.. That's if they go forward with them...

 

[YoNoSe]

Well, there's the movie budget, and then the reshoot budget, director #2 salary, Rotten Tomatoes payoffs, reverse audience-score bias coffee-can monies, physical threat intimidation call center, Jake Lloyd's therapy...

 

[Khev]

 

[Bravomite]

Well, there's the movie budget, and then the reshoot budget, director #2 salary, Rotten Tomatoes payoffs, reverse audience-score bias coffee-can monies, physical threat intimidation call center, Jake Lloyd's therapy...

you forgot to add KK's severance package

 

[YoNoSe]

you forgot to add KK's severance package

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yeah I think I even chuckled the first time I saw TLJ in the theater at how quickly Luke changed out of his TFA robes since it made it feel so obvious that the new director simply didn't like them, lol. I don't think for a second that Abrams had a clear picture in mind as to why Luke was on that island though so it was all on Johnson to figure why such a powerful warrior would be sitting out the destruction of an entire solar system and the death of a dear friend. Being busy lifting rocks on the side of a secluded cliff just wasn't going to cut it.

That really puts into perspective how tall of a task it was to come up with a plausible backstory for Luke exiling himself to Ahch-To after losing his nephew to the Dark Side. Can you imagine being handed the Force Awakens script that tells you that Luke went into seclusion, and abandoned everyone/everything he cared about, then find out JJ was going to end the film with Luke Force-lifting rocks on a cliff's edge? If you think that through, it's actually borderline preposterous enough to be pretty funny in retrospect.

Imagine how much harder it'd be to reconcile Luke's life in exile if he was still tapped into the Force and could have sensed all those deaths (like Kenobi felt Alderaan) when Starkiller base destroyed those planets. Because there he is afterwards, just chillin' and getting his morning Force-lift reps in.

I don't think people acknowledge enough how tough it'd be to write the middle chapter of this trilogy knowing that you'd have to give the audience a credible reason for Luke staying in exile. Having him cut off from the Force solved worse problems than it created, and I think it was a good tactical story-telling choice. In fact, given the nature of this trilogy being written by passing the baton from one writer/director to the next, I think there's a lot to be said for the value of reigning in other people's ideas that might sound good at first, but could present problems later. The weird baton-passing strategy actually prevents any single idea from going too far for its own good. Different creative perspectives help keep things in check. I think Lucas' prequel trilogy would have benefited greatly from having other people influence how to guide and shape the direction of the story. Maybe this approach by LFL isn't as crazy as I thought.

 

[YoNoSe]

I don't think it was that tough, tbh. Maybe it's just me but the immediate conclusion I jumped to when Han said (something like), "Those who knew him best said he went in search of the first Jedi Temple" was that Luke went looking for a solution - some knowledge that's been lost, forgotten, or ignored by the arrogant Jedi Order.

I certainly didn't think he went there to sit around and contemplate pyromania. If he wanted to be alone and die, he should have gone to someplace not-related to Jedi. If he wanted the Jedi to end, why bother leaving even an obfuscated trail to the original Jedi texts? You could argue that he was subconsciously hoping for someone like Rey to come along and bare the torch but there's no evidence of that in the text, so to speak.. Abrams went full-on audience pleaser with TFA so I imagine his intentions towards THE childhood hero would be more pro-active.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I don't think it was that tough, tbh. Maybe it's just me but the immediate conclusion I jumped to when Han said (something like), "Those who knew him best said he went in search of the first Jedi Temple" was that Luke went looking for a solution - some knowledge that's been lost, forgotten, or ignored by the arrogant Jedi Order.

I certainly didn't think he went there to sit around and contemplate pyromania. If he wanted to be alone and die, he should have gone to someplace not-related to Jedi. If he wanted the Jedi to end, why bother leaving even an obfuscated trail to the original Jedi texts? You could argue that he was subconsciously hoping for someone like Rey to come along and bare the torch but there's no evidence of that in the text, so to speak.. Abrams went full-on audience pleaser with TFA so I imagine his intentions towards THE childhood hero would be more pro-active.

The problem is that the idea Luke left a trail to find him is merely a plausible interpretation, but not explicitly stated in TFA. Han seemed to be at a loss for where Luke actually was, and why he'd be there. If Luke went to the first Jedi temple in search of answers or forgotten wisdom, then he'd leave himself a way to get back in case he was successful. He wouldn't leave some obscure clue in Artoo, that would be a fragment needing someone else to piece it together in order to come find him. That makes no sense. If he went in search of answers, the answers would be of no use unless he could get himself back to put them into effect. Instead, he went without Artoo. He went without telling anyone about his intentions. I think the reasonable interpretation is that he wouldn't have needed to have anyone come get him.

That's the dilemma for whoever would end up having to write Episode 8. A proactive Luke would have left himself with a way back, and probably would have sped up his return after sensing the massive loss of life from the Starkiller destruction of those planets. Johnson inherited a story where none of the elements were present to logically support a proactive Luke. So, he (smartly) decided to have him cut off from the Force. He also decided that the best way to explain his exile and abandonment would be to make it so that Luke was trying to do the right thing to prevent anymore Dookus, Vaders, and Kylos that the Jedi kept inadvertently empowering. It was sadness and guilt, but also his way of trying to do what he thought was the right thing to prevent the cyclical tragedy of fallen Jedi turning to Sith and wreaking havoc on the galaxy.

 

[YoNoSe]

The problem is that the idea Luke left a trail to find him is merely a plausible interpretation, but not explicitly stated in TFA.

Not stated, but demonstrated. R2 has one piece, and a Jedi acolyte on Jakku has the other.

Han seemed to be at a loss for where Luke actually was, and why he'd be there. If Luke went to the first Jedi temple in search of answers or forgotten wisdom, then he'd leave himself a way to get back in case he was successful.

There's no reason to think he doesn't have a way back until we see his X-Wing (and why a fighter?) in the drink. that was a little too fan-servicey IMO.

He wouldn't leave some obscure clue in Artoo, that would be a fragment needing someone else to piece it together in order to come find him. That makes no sense.

Maybe - but it makes less sense if he went there to die alone.

If he went in search of answers, the answers would be of no use unless he could get himself back to put them into effect.

Again, presumably he could until TLJ shows us his shipwreck.

Instead, he went without Artoo. He went without telling anyone about his intentions. I think the reasonable interpretation is that he wouldn't have needed to have anyone come get him.

I would presume, based on my first assumption, that he would leave clues in case something happened to him - someone else could pursue the same thing he was seeking.

That's the dilemma for whoever would end up having to write Episode 8. A proactive Luke would have left himself with a way back, and probably would have sped up his return after sensing the massive loss of life from the Starkiller destruction of those planets. Johnson inherited a story where none of the elements were present to logically support a proactive Luke. So, he (smartly) decided to have him cut off from the Force. He also decided that the best way to explain his exile and abandonment would be to make it so that Luke was trying to do the right thing to prevent anymore Dookus, Vaders, and Kylos that the Jedi kept inadvertently empowering. It was sadness and guilt, but also his way of trying to do what he thought was the right thing to prevent the cyclical tragedy of fallen Jedi turning to Sith and wreaking havoc on the galaxy.

I just fundamentally (and amicably) don't agree. I think there's ample room for pro-active Luke in TFA's wake.

We'll probably never know - Abrams is too smart a business man to betray the trust of Lucasfilm/Disney. But already Simon Pegg has gone on record that JJ's plan was contradicted in TLJ. Colin Trevorrow made a pointed statement about the Jurassic series embracing fandom instead of dividing it. And there have been unsubstantiated rumors about the disruptive nature of Johnson's script.

But it's fun to ruminate on with fellow fans!

 

[xipotec]

Another thing I didn’t understand about TLJ is why was Luke wearing his Jedi robes at all when Rey came to the planet if he had given up being a Jedi and his connection to the force altogether? The next time he wears them was when he goes to burn down the tree. Maybe he wanted to give it up but the force wouldn’t let him?

Yeah and why was Obi Wan wearing them when he was suppose to be hiding?


And Yoda? WTF? He wore the SAME robe for 20 years??

Gimme a break...this space wizards thing is chock full of inconsistencies


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Python]

Well, there's the movie budget, and then the reshoot budget, director #2 salary, Rotten Tomatoes payoffs, reverse audience-score bias coffee-can monies, physical threat intimidation call center, Jake Lloyd's therapy...

 

[ajp4mgs]

Not stated, but demonstrated. R2 has one piece, and a Jedi acolyte on Jakku has the other.

In TFA, Han looks at BB8's map and says that it's not complete; it's essentially useless. Even when Poe completes the acolyte's mission to return the partial map to Leia, it still does them no good without Artoo (figuratively and literally) putting the pieces together. It seems like a stretch that Luke would have deliberately planted a remaining fragment in Artoo knowing the lengths it would take to bring it all together. Very inefficient, and too likely to fail for such an important ambition of being found with potential galaxy-saving answers or wisdom. How many times was BB8 (and the map) on the verge of being taken?

And when Rey asks Han why Luke left, this is his response: "One boy (an apprentice) turned against him and destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible; he just walked away from everything."

There's more than just an implication there that Luke's disappearance was a deliberate full-scale abandonment. I'm not saying that your interpretation of a proactive Luke leaving breadcrumbs would be completely unjustified; just that the explicit dialogue and plot of TFA seems to point, instead, to the interpretation that Johnson got from it. Luke "just walked away from everything" is the most explicit explanation that TFA provided.

There's no reason to think he doesn't have a way back until we see his X-Wing (and why a fighter?) in the drink. that was a little too fan-servicey IMO.

But if he had a way back, then you'd have to explain why he wasn't using it. He'd presumably been missing for years. His absence during the escalation of the First Order's tyranny would have to be reconciled with his proactive desire to help prevent or stop it. When is it too long to be gone and still have it make sense for a proactive version of Luke? I think it's reasonable to see that the exposition in TFA suggested a Luke who wasn't planning to come back.

Maybe - but it makes less sense if he went there to die alone.

Going there to die alone makes total sense if you apply the context provided by TLJ: Luke wanted to prevent the Jedi (and Jedi hubris) from being the genesis for more Sith corruption. If you wanted to stop a religion IRL, and you were the last of that religion, dying and destroying its scriptures could constitute an end to it.

But it's fun to ruminate on with fellow fans!

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Khev]

What's strange is the fact that both Max Von Sydow and R2-D2 had the exact two pieces needed for the same puzzle. It's really baffling and I have a hard time even coming up with a decent fan theory explaining why. Abrams has said in interviews that R2 got the location of Ach-To from the archives of the Empire when he jacked into the first Death Star looking for Leia's cell.

So R2 pulled out just the last 10% of the route that Max Von Sydow didn't have? Why would he have such a specific fragment of the map? It's just so very "RPG-ish." Go here, talk to this wise man, get part of the map, then fight these bad guys, wake up the droid that has nothing to do with the wise man but has the other piece of the wise man's map anyway, etc. Hell even RPG games tend to be more coherent, lol.

And all that's just straight TFA goofiness well before Johnson ever stepped in.