Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Franken Berry]

It looks to me like you simply didn't understand the movie Franken Berry (great username btw, lol) or that maybe you simply don't want to understand it. The "point" of Luke facing Kylo as stated by both the director himself and the film's on-screen narrator (Poe) was for him to simply stall the FO long enough for the Resistance to escape. You're trying to make it into this big convoluted mess for no other reason than you apparently hated the previous set up leading up to it.

Johnson thought that a viable explanation for Luke sitting out TFA was that he had cut himself off from the Force on account of guilt/despair over not preventing Ben Solo from becoming Kylo Ren. He spouted a lot of BS to justify his actions but in the end came to his senses and helped the good guys in the only way that he could. Johnson didn't want Luke to die violently and he couldn't kill Kylo halfway through the trilogy so he came up with the idea of Force Projection which solved both problems. The end. It really isn't convoluted. At all, lol.

Johnson also said in an interview that the Canto Bight sequence was something he created because he "wanted a new environment that was like dunking your head in a cool bath of water, right in the middle of movie. Apart from the prequels, all the touchstones that make something feel like Star Wars have to do with griminess and dirt. I wanted to do something completely different."

I would argue that the Canto Bight scene was also an egalitarian screed. Would your response be, "No way! The director said that he simply created it because he wanted something like dunking his head in cool bathwater! That's all it was! Cool! Bathwater!"

Use your brain.

 

[ajp4mgs]

To piggyback off of Khev's point about the Luke Force projection: in a way, it was essentially what Kenobi did in ANH. Making the best of a dire situation, while being outnumbered no matter the outcome of a physical/real lightsaber duel, by at least buying time for those who need it so they can have a better chance in the days to follow. And, maybe even be able to affect greater good in a less corporeal form going forward. Luke's way was even better by not giving Kylo any chance to deliver a fatal blow.

And killing Kylo shouldn't necessarily be considered such a given for Luke. That's still his nephew. Conversely, Kylo was obsessed with killing his uncle - his desire for it was overwhelming. Losing an actual saber battle with Kylo only gives him everything he wants, including a demoralized Resistance who'd watch their legendary hero get sliced to death at the hands of this enemy they need to believe can be defeated. Luke left Kylo looking and feeling stupid. Luke's projection on Crait doesn't need to be viewed as a non-violent alternative just for the sake of being non-violent. Luke's been known to take a different approach to the conventional "let's go slice the bad guy" before.

Luke also refused to kill Vader in ROTJ, not because he was a pacifist, but because he was proving a point (and was still convinced his father could be redeemed). He literally threw down his sword (saber). He was at the mercy of the Emperor. He could have easily died had he guessed wrong about Vader. He was vindicated by Vader's redemption, but that doesn't change the fact that Luke chose to lay down his weapon. That was Lucas, not Johnson doing that writing.

Luke didn't let himself get taken to the Death Star to destroy it. He went to turn his father back to the side of the good. It was Luke's friends (the Rebellion) who destroyed the Death Star. He was going at the conflict from a different (and more personally-motivated) angle.

 

[Prime Clone]

all the touchstones that make something feel like Star Wars have to do with griminess and dirt.

That was one of my main gripes about Solo: all the locales were either sandy or muddy, and I couldn't tell them apart. And RO wasn't much better.

To piggyback off of Khev's point about the Luke Force projection: in a way, it was essentially what Kenobi did in ANH. Making the best of a dire situation, while being outnumbered no matter the outcome of a physical/real lightsaber duel, by at least buying time for those who need it so they can have a better chance in the days to follow.

Yep, Luke becomes Ben as soon as Leia sends for him as the "only hope" for the Resistance.

 

[Prime Clone]

BREAKING NEWS: Johnson finally says sorry!

 

[ShadowX81]

With all due respect it boggles my mind how so many people who hate TLJ latch on to Luke's mistakes as the "message" of the movie or a restructuring of the Saga's mythology. It really is quite bizarre. It'd be like me saying that Rocky III sucked because instead of promoting hard work and picking yourself up after defeat that the message of the film is to quit and be a p***y. Who would say that? Anyone who closed their eyes during the entire third act I guess.

Luke's full of **** for pretty much the entire film until Yoda shows up. "I can't accomplish anything by facing the entire FO with a laser sword. It's time for the Jedi to end. Powerful light, powerful dark. Boo hoo bla bla bla." All bull**** that he pretends is true in order to cope with his failures. But Yoda sets him straight (and his reaction to Yoda burning the tree proved beyond a doubt that he never believed his own BS rhetoric) and he puts himself out there, reconnects with the Force in pretty much the most dramatic way possible (so much for fearing the Dark Side "balancing" nonsense) and declares that the Jedi Order *will* continue through Rey thereby giving it his full endorsement.

The movie literally shows an extended dramatic close-up of his lips saying those exact words but your take-away was that all the BS he stated when Rey first met him on the island was the true message of the movie?

While I have a problem with the "balance" idea, my problem isn't so much with the film itself but rather from the fans promoting this "Grey Jedi" idea, saying that the saga needs to move beyond simple "good vs. evil". When did trying to find a decent amount of evil in your life become a higher ideal than trying to be 100% good?

Saying that a balance between good and evil is a healthy lifestyle is something that sounds good on a fortune cookie, but holds little weight when you actually think about it. There shouldn't be a compromise between altruistic warrior monks who have found enlightenment through emotional control and genocidal psychopaths who regularly slaughter noncombatants during war.

I know that its a comforting message to make peace with the darker sides to your personality and accept your faults, but it also inherently stunts emotional maturity when you give up trying to improve yourself because splashing a cold hard dose of reality and self reflection on your face about the parts of yourself that may be holding you back is uncomfortable.

 

[Wor-Gar]

When did trying to find a decent amount of evil in your life become a higher ideal than trying to be 100% good?

Saying that a balance between good and evil is a healthy lifestyle is something that sounds good on a fortune cookie, but holds little weight when you actually think about it. There shouldn't be a compromise between altruistic warrior monks who have found enlightenment through emotional control and genocidal psychopaths who regularly slaughter noncombatants during war.

I know that its a comforting message to make peace with the darker sides to your personality and accept your faults, but it also inherently stunts emotional maturity when you give up trying to improve yourself because splashing a cold hard dose of reality and self reflection on your face about the parts of yourself that may be holding you back is uncomfortable.

Good points.

That was one of my main gripes about Solo: all the locales were either sandy or muddy, and I couldn't tell them apart. And RO wasn't much better.
.

RO has one of the best locales in all of Star Wars-dom: Scariff

 

[Khev]

To piggyback off of Khev's point about the Luke Force projection: in a way, it was essentially what Kenobi did in ANH. Making the best of a dire situation, while being outnumbered no matter the outcome of a physical/real lightsaber duel, by at least buying time for those who need it so they can have a better chance in the days to follow. And, maybe even be able to affect greater good in a less corporeal form going forward. Luke's way was even better by not giving Kylo any chance to deliver a fatal blow.

And killing Kylo shouldn't necessarily be considered such a given for Luke. That's still his nephew. Conversely, Kylo was obsessed with killing his uncle - his desire for it was overwhelming. Losing an actual saber battle with Kylo only gives him everything he wants, including a demoralized Resistance who'd watch their legendary hero get sliced to death at the hands of this enemy they need to believe can be defeated. Luke left Kylo looking and feeling stupid. Luke's projection on Crait doesn't need to be viewed as a non-violent alternative just for the sake of being non-violent. Luke's been known to take a different approach to the conventional "let's go slice the bad guy" before.

Luke also refused to kill Vader in ROTJ, not because he was a pacifist, but because he was proving a point (and was still convinced his father could be redeemed). He literally threw down his sword (saber). He was at the mercy of the Emperor. He could have easily died had he guessed wrong about Vader. He was vindicated by Vader's redemption, but that doesn't change the fact that Luke chose to lay down his weapon. That was Lucas, not Johnson doing that writing.

Luke didn't let himself get taken to the Death Star to destroy it. He went to turn his father back to the side of the good. It was Luke's friends (the Rebellion) who destroyed the Death Star. He was going at the conflict from a different (and more personally-motivated) angle.

So well said my friend.

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to simply follow what's shown and said on screen (especially when it mirrors parallel scenes from the OT) as opposed to manufacturing their own convoluted context in order to make it easier to bash the film. Nothing wrong with disliking some or all of the movie but at least dislike *the actual movie* and not some weird alternate made up version that exists only in your own head.

Going back to the film itself I've gone back and forth on the whole Force Projection angle and have determined that for me personally it is suitably badass *and* heroic for three reasons: 1. Luke shows us something that no Jedi has ever done in eight live-action films, 2. He totally humiliates Kyo while amazing both the entire FO and the entire Resistance, and most importantly 3. He dies doing it.

*If* Luke had survived then yeah it would have been hard not to see it as him being a bit of a wuss who wouldn't show up for real and put himself at risk. But that's not how it went down. He did indeed put his life on the line (which is as heroic an act as anyone can possibly perform) but did it in a way that didn't give Kylo the satisfaction of personally cutting him down and demoralizing the entire Resistance (as you eloquently stated above) and also allowed for Luke to have a dramatically different death than Old Ben. Really that showdown was about as well played as I could have imagined. Watching Luke Skywalker cut down Han and Leia's son would have just felt all kinds of wrong and watching him die exactly like Old Ben would have felt too predictable. I love that Luke got his own unique death that was very fitting for him alone.

 

[Prime Clone]

RO has one of the best locales in all of Star Wars-dom: Scariff

True, and I think it's more Solo's fault than RO, Solo was just more of the same "muddy, beachy" settings.

 

[Khev]

That was one of my main gripes about Solo: all the locales were either sandy or muddy, and I couldn't tell them apart.

Yeah at the end when Han faced off against Beckett on those sunny sandy cliffs while the blue surf pounded the rocks below I kept thinking "why are they back on the icy snow planet again? Where's the train?"

 

[Franken Berry]

BREAKING NEWS: Johnson finally says sorry!

If a Scientologist was handed a multi-billion dollar franchise, and in taking the reigns they turned it into an allegory for the tenets of Scientology, I don't think it would be sufficient to say, "Did I make it personal? Yeah. Life is messy. If I DIDN'T include that peripheral trip to Canto Schmanto, where our protagonists had a lengthy digression about Thetans for half an hour, the film wouldn't have been personal. George Lucas made personal films, so in a way, I was just doing what he did."

Uh huh. I'm sure the shareholders will have a sigh of relief, knowing that completely *******izing the OT was all in the spirit of the OT.

 

[Prime Clone]

Yeah at the end when Han faced off against Beckett on those sunny sandy cliffs while the blue surf pounded the rocks below I kept thinking "why are they back on the icy snow planet again? Where's the train?"

And why'd it look so much like Starkiller Base?! Or Hoth. Or Crait!

 

[cerealkeller]

With all due respect it boggles my mind how so many people who hate TLJ latch on to Luke's mistakes as the "message" of the movie or a restructuring of the Saga's mythology. It really is quite bizarre. It'd be like me saying that Rocky III sucked because instead of promoting hard work and picking yourself up after defeat that the message of the film is to quit and be a p***y. Who would say that? Anyone who closed their eyes during the entire third act I guess.

Luke's full of **** for pretty much the entire film until Yoda shows up. "I can't accomplish anything by facing the entire FO with a laser sword. It's time for the Jedi to end. Powerful light, powerful dark. Boo hoo bla bla bla." All bull**** that he pretends is true in order to cope with his failures. But Yoda sets him straight (and his reaction to Yoda burning the tree proved beyond a doubt that he never believed his own BS rhetoric) and he puts himself out there, reconnects with the Force in pretty much the most dramatic way possible (so much for fearing the Dark Side "balancing" nonsense) and declares that the Jedi Order *will* continue through Rey thereby giving it his full endorsement.

The movie literally shows an extended dramatic close-up of his lips saying those exact words but your take-away was that all the BS he stated when Rey first met him on the island was the true message of the movie?

Stay away from the movie thread pretty much now these days, but thank you sir for that truly epic beat down. That was...I never described a beat down as majestic before but you good sir deserve it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Prime Clone]

Some more "memorable quotes" from the PT just sprang to mind, coincidentally all from AOTC!


Lookie, lookie, Senator. Desa Jedi arriven!

Jedi poodoo!

If droids could think there'd be none of us here, would there? (try telling that to the Kasdans!)

If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist.

Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.

I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe.

Stay away from the movie thread pretty much now these days, but thank you sir for that truly epic beat down. That was...I never described a beat down as majestic before but you good sir deserve it!

True, Khev deserves khudos. Any problems with Luke's character trajectory are rectified by the end. Love how Yoda calls his bluff and he freaks out: "The sacred Jedi texts!!"

 

[xipotec]

This is why the scene was omitted. Again, it convoluted the message. He's willing to advocate that Rey join the resistance, but he's unwilling to give her power in teaching her how to wield the force. Why? Because too much power is too dangerous. Luke contradicts himself. It makes no sense. Why would he advocate helping people, but continue to be a hermit on an island? Why would he advocate Rey helping the resistance, but be concerned about asymmetrical power in wielding the force?

There's no internal logic to the message Johnson cobbled together. We're to understand that:

1) The Jedi should end, because everyone should wield the force
2) Luke won't teach anyone how to wield the force, particularly if they're powerful
3) Rey should join the resistance and fight, but
4) The Jedi were wrong, that there needs to be a balance that is maintained

Yes, again, that's why the scene was deleted. Johnson contradicts himself. Luke won't train Rey because she's too dangerous, and yet Luke argues that it's hubris to maintain the Jedi, because the force should belong to everyone. Luke hides from the world, for fear that his intervention as a Jedi, by it's very nature is a form of imbalance, and yet he advises Rey to intervene (though not as a Jedi).

You miss the point. Yes, Rey should join in the resistance and fight, but that means she must lack the restraint required to be a Jedi. Without that restraint, she'd be too dangerous with so much power, which is why Luke won't train her. He believes the Jedi are ineffective, because the only way to wield power constructively is to allow certain ruin, in the name of balance. Sure, she can rush into battle as someone "force sensitive", but as a Jedi, her desire to rush into battle would lead her to the dark side. That was Johnson's point. There's cohesion, so long as you grant Johnson his braindead philosophy.

I think the message is the JEDI should end, not the force.

The force should be used differently than how it was taught by the Jedi. The conflict will never end if its always one side versus another.

This is also what Kylo is saying, albeit by wiping out one side competently, basically the same thing Vader and Palps attempted.

My guess is the original “Jedi” texts will turn out not to be what anyone thinks. Luke was trying to tell this to Rey and he audience. Its not about lazar swords and moving rocks, its about harmony with nature and connections with all living things.

Yoda was also saying the same thing, all the way back in ESB. But Luke didnt understand then, and as a result, things continued on, in the same way it always had.




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Darth Snoopy]

Wow...the discussion in here has been really good. Kudos for you guys on both sides for bringing up good solid talking points

 

[Franken Berry]

I think the message is the JEDI should end, not the force.

The force should be used differently than how it was taught by the Jedi. The conflict will never end if its always one side versus another.

This is also what Kylo is saying, albeit by wiping out one side competently, basically the same thing Vader and Palps attempted.

My guess is the original “Jedi” texts will turn out not to be what anyone thinks. Luke was trying to tell this to Rey and he audience. Its not about lazar swords and moving rocks, its about harmony with nature and connections with all living things.

Yoda was also saying the same thing, all the way back in ESB. But Luke didnt understand then, and as a result, things continued on, in the same way it always had.

Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Do you think that Luke's willingness to show up and save his friends via hologram, and his telling Kylo that the Jedi will continue to exist, was Luke's reversal of criticism toward the Jedi order? Do you think he suddenly feels warm and fuzzy about the Jedi order's monopoly over the Force? What indication is there, that he's changed his mind about that?

 

[xipotec]

Do you think that Luke's willingness to show up and save his friends via hologram, and his telling Kylo that the Jedi will continue to exist, was Luke's reversal of criticism toward the Jedi order? Do you think he suddenly feels warm and fuzzy about the Jedi order's monopoly over the Force? What indication is there, that he's changed his mind about that?

I have been pondering that point. My take away was , he kept his ideals intact. He follows through with his beliefs. He doesn’t fight Kylo at all....he never raises his saber in anything but defense. A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and events....never attack. Something the Jedi order was actively doing in PT, and led to their downfall. The Clone Wars was directly showing the Jedi being hypocritical, and not following their own directives.

Luke was using the Force as intended in TLJ, projection, connection, seeing the future.

He mistakenly believed, by ATTACKing Kylo he was going to prevent another Vader from rising. All those visions from his obvious trauma and fear of the events in OT. When he attacked he may have inadvertently created Kylo....

He was using the force as the Jedi of ild did, and realized that his use in that manner may have created Kylo.

So he bowed out, no really knowing what to do and how to be.

Then his was misguided in thinking the Jedi and Force had to end. When in reality he finally understood the force was most powerful at its core, without violence. He basically defeated Kylo and saved his friends, without doing anything attack wise. Its even possible, the act of using the force in this way, allows him to graduate to the next plane of existence.

Yoda Learned this....

Obi learns this....

(Obi basically did the same in thing in OT that Luke does in TLJ.)



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Franken Berry]

I have been pondering that point. My take away was , he kept his ideals intact. He follows through with his beliefs. He doesn’t fight Kylo at all....he never raises his saber in anything but defense. A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and events....never attack. Something the Jedi order was actively doing in PT, and led to their downfall. The Clone Wars was directly showing the Jedi being hypocritical, and not following their own directives.

Luke was using the Force as intended in TLJ, projection, connection, seeing the future.

He mistakenly believed, by ATTACKing Kylo he was going to prevent another Vader from rising. All those visions from his obvious trauma and fear of the events in OT. When he attacked he may have inadvertently created Kylo....

He was using the force as the Jedi of ild did, and realized that his use in that manner may have created Kylo.

So he bowed out, no really knowing what to do and how to be.

Then his was misguided in thinking the Jedi and Force had to end. When in reality he finally understood the force was most powerful at its core, without violence. He basically defeated Kylo and saved his friends, without doing anything attack wise. Its even possible, the act of using the force in this way, allows him to graduate to the next plane of existence.

Yoda Learned this....

Obi learns this....

(Obi basically did the same in thing in OT that Luke does in TLJ.)

Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

See where it gets convoluted? He doesn't believe the force should be used for aggression, but he believes that everyone should have access to the Force, while they're being subjected to genocide via the First Order. Isn't there an obvious issue there, that the film conveniently ignores?

 

[xipotec]

See where it gets convoluted? He doesn't believe the force should be used for aggression, but he believes that everyone should have access to the Force, while they're being subjected to genocide via the First Order. Isn't there an obvious issue there, that the film conveniently ignores?

Not really, Ghandi did the same thing. Non aggression to fight aggression. The question is what can one do in the face of “force” violence to defend yourself? Especially from a dedicated psycho like Kylo....at least one on one.

Rebels has done a good job showing what is possible with the force that doesn’t involve slashing someone apart.

Luke did a great job using non violence to save his friends and mentally defeat his enemy.

(Thats on of my favorite lines from TLJ “See you around kid...” so laden with sarcasm and threat....mental threat.

If Kylo can stop a lazar blast mid air, imagine what could be done to stop someone for fighting.

I imagine we could see alot of force powers come about that do not involve throwing people through the air, flipping around with a lazar sword, force choke....

May be we see more force “suggestion” and other powers designed to defeat an aggressor with non violent means.





Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Franken Berry]

Not really, Ghandi did the same thing. Non aggression to fight aggression. The question is what can one do in the face of “force” violence to defend yourself? Especially from a dedicated psycho like Kylo....at least one on one.

Rebels has done a good job showing what is possible with the force that doesn’t involve slashing someone apart.

Luke did a great job using non violence to save his friends and mentally defeat his enemy.

(Thats on of my favorite lines from TLJ “See you around kid...” so laden with sarcasm and threat....mental threat.

If Kylo can stop a lazar blast mid air, imagine what could be done to stop someone for fighting.

I imagine we could see alot of force powers come about that do not involve throwing people through the air, flipping around with a lazar sword, force choke....

May be we see more force “suggestion” and other powers designed to defeat an aggressor with non violent means.





Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

I agree with you, that pacifism definitely was part of the subtext of the film. For whatever reason, a lot of people praising the film on this forum failed to detect what should be obvious. Luke's entire "arc" in this film involved a commitment to nonviolence. His motives were numerous. I agree with you, that he maintained his convictions from isolation on the island. He didn't abandon his nonviolence in confronting Kylo. He expressed nonviolent resistance. We're on the same page there. I don't even think it was subtle, and it was very Ghandi.

My reservations about pacifism aside. there's another problem that hasn't been addressed. Luke's pacifism is peculiar. He isn't against the resistance. He's not even opposed to non-Jedi self-defense. If Rey wants to rejoin the resistance, Luke supports that (in the deleted scenes, anyway). Luke is mainly concerned with people wielding power. He doesn't like power being in the hands of a select few. In this sense, the Jedi Order present the same problem as the Empire or First Order. For Luke, it's about the equal distribution of power.

Would you agree? He's not opposed to the Force, but opposed to the idea that only a select few wield it. He thinks that the Force should belong to everyone.

Second, he also is committed to non-violence, when the Force is involved.

Here's where the nonsense comes into play: If everyone has access to the Force, won't some of them inevitably be malevolent? Won't someone inevitably become Sith? If so, how do you deal with the Sith in a non-violent way? Or are we to believe that if everyone used the force, no one would become Sith?