Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[ajp4mgs]

This I would agree with... What does that say about the movie I wonder???

I guess it is what I always have said it is.. Its a pretty movie that takes place in the SW universe with characters I love from childhood.. So I can't help but enjoy parts of it when I watch it..


But then I start to think about the film after its over and see it for the crap fest that it is

That's certainly a plausible interpretation. I think another plausible interpretation is that people enjoy watching the film because it's, you know . . . good. But then when it's over, the disappointment sets in because nothing happened the way you think it should have, or the way you would have preferred. ROTJ is no longer the end of the saga. Han is dead. Luke is dead. And now Leia (Carrie) is dead.

Having it take place "in the SW universe with characters I love from childhood" carries a burden. If you love those characters, you want them to continue being the same. When TLJ doesn't give you that, the immediate reflection is that the movie failed.

In reality, though, it didn't fail if all it did was recognize that Luke was 30 years older and had secluded himself on an island because he felt responsible for his nephew's turn to the dark (established in TFA). Han had just died (TFA), and we have a Leia whose 30 years older - knowing her son killed his father and leads the FO (set up in TFA), leading a Resistance that is dwindling in size by the minute.

TLJ inherited elements from TFA that had to go in a logical direction. Luke had to somehow have an altruistic reason for abandoning everyone. TLJ provided that. Leia had to remain the ever-hopeful spiritual (and tactical) leader in spite of a dead Han and a murderous son. TLJ gave us that Leia (but also made her fly/pull herself through space ).

Unless you're willing to completely ignore reality, you'll recognize that there is at least as much critical praise of TLJ for being brilliant as there is for it being awful. So, the truth could be one of those extremes - but likely somewhere in the middle. A "crap fest" is far from the impression I get when I look at it objectively. Oh well.

 

[Bravomite]

That's certainly a plausible interpretation. I think another plausible interpretation is that people enjoy watching the film because it's, you know . . . good. But then when it's over, the disappointment sets in because nothing happened the way you think it should have, or the way you would have preferred. ROTJ is no longer the end of the saga. Han is dead. Luke is dead. And now Leia (Carrie) is dead.

Having it take place "in the SW universe with characters I love from childhood" carries a burden. If you love those characters, you want them to continue being the same. When TLJ doesn't give you that, the immediate reflection is that the movie failed.

In reality, though, it didn't fail if all it did was recognize that Luke was 30 years older and had secluded himself on an island because he felt responsible for his nephew's turn to the dark (established in TFA). Han had just died (TFA), and we have a Leia whose 30 years older - knowing her son killed his father and leads the FO (set up in TFA), leading a Resistance that is dwindling in size by the minute.

TLJ inherited elements from TFA that had to go in a logical direction. Luke had to somehow have an altruistic reason for abandoning everyone. TLJ provided that. Leia had to remain the ever-hopeful spiritual (and tactical) leader in spite of a dead Han and a murderous son. TLJ gave us that Leia (but also made her fly/pull herself through space ).

Unless you're willing to completely ignore reality, you'll recognize that there is at least as much critical praise of TLJ for being brilliant as there is for it being awful. So, the truth could be one of those extremes - but likely somewhere in the middle. A "crap fest" is far from the impression I get when I look at it objectively. Oh well.

Disney might consider it a bit of a failure and a misstep even if you don't - they are likely concentrating on the bottom line and the longevity of the brand as a golden goose. No doubt they would prefer right now to be sitting on a franchise with a largely united fanbase (as they were post TFA) - which is not the case any more. I expect they would prefer LFL to be churning out movies that bring in many many new fans whilst pleasing the existing fanbase - TFA and RO appeared to do it but TLJ didn't and a large proportion of the fans and general cinema goers didn't even turn up to Solo. Lastly, Disney would like the merch from the new movies to be selling out and be the new must have thing but it's not anymore and is instead reduced to bargain bins very quickly whereas Jurassic World toys and are flying off the shelves.

Coincidentally, TLJ and Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom are very similar movies in some respects. Both are follow ups to incredibly successful pictures. They both feature great cinematography with good scores (Williams was a bit lucklustre with TLJ compared to his previous work in the series and I prefer Giacchino's work on JW and neither of his scores compare to Williams' original work on JP and TLW). However, objectively speaking both movies have narrative issues, the stories are advanced by numerous plot conveniences and they are littered with plot holes (TLJ also injects a poor attempt at MCU humour which is very out of place and doesn't land for the most part). That doesn't stop them being entertaining movies but they just aren't examples of all round good film making unlike other such entries in each respective series (ANH, TESB or JP).

I dislike TLJ and I have posted about it previously but despite this I can recognise and respect parts of it as mentioned above. In addition, l think there are moments of pure magic in TLJ like when R2 guilts Luke with the ANH Leia mesaage, the sentiments that Yoda was expressing to Luke about kids/padawans growing beyond their masters, the touching moment between Luke and Leia in the final act and yes even force projection Luke was really cool and in character. But for me these moments are few and far between are no where near enough to make me change my opinion about the film.

Whilst I find JWFK entertaining and harmlessly stupid, some six months after the release of TLJ I am still incredibly disappointed by it, not just as a movie but also because of what it has done to the fanbase and the saga. For many people there is little to no anticipation for the next movie in the trilogy and that is inexcusable on Johnson's part. Episode 9 is also supposed to be the epic conclusion of a 9 part movie saga chronicling the Skywalker story but there are no Skywalkers left so I can't see how it can deliver on this unless parts of TLJ are retconned by JJ (perhaps Rey's parentage, Luke being dead or Reylo getting together and having a baby - I hope this last one doesn't happen!).

The funny thing with episode 8 is that I had no preconceptions about it beforehand. I loved the Star Wars EU and despite some reservations with TFA, I was feeling really positive about the ST. In fact, as I sat there on opening night the only thing I knew for certain was that I was going to really really like TLJ haha. Alas those trailers were brilliant though - whoever cut them was a genius!

Finally ... Just to confirm, despite my dislike for TLJ I am not a Spazz soc account - you can probably tell because my arguments aren't as eloquent lol.

 

[YoNoSe]

Finally ... Just to confirm, despite my dislike for TLJ I am not a Spazz soc account - you can probably tell because my arguments aren't as eloquent lol.

I'm afraid that won't do. Fill the cup, please.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Disney might consider it a bit of a failure and a misstep even if you don't - they are likely concentrating on the bottom line and the longevity of the brand as a golden goose. No doubt they would prefer right now to be sitting on a franchise with a largely united fanbase (as they were post TFA) - which is not the case any more. I expect they would prefer LFL to be churning out movies that bring in many many new fans whilst pleasing the existing fanbase - TFA and RO appeared to do it but TLJ didn't and a large proportion of the fans and general cinema goers didn't even turn up to Solo. Lastly, Disney would like the merch from the new movies to be selling out and be the new must have thing but it's not anymore and is instead reduced to bargain bins very quickly whereas Jurassic World toys and are flying off the shelves.

Coincidentally, TLJ and Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom are very similar movies in some respects. Both are follow ups to incredibly successful pictures. They both feature great cinematography with good scores (Williams was a bit lucklustre with TLJ compared to his previous work in the series and I prefer Giacchino's work on JW and neither of his scores compare to Williams' original work on JP and TLW). However, objectively speaking both movies have narrative issues, the stories are advanced by numerous plot conveniences and they are littered with plot holes (TLJ also injects a poor attempt at MCU humour which is very out of place and doesn't land for the most part). That doesn't stop them being entertaining movies but they just aren't examples of all round good film making unlike other such entries in each respective series (ANH, TESB or JP).

I dislike TLJ and I have posted about it previously but despite this I can recognise and respect parts of it as mentioned above. In addition, l think there are moments of pure magic in TLJ like when R2 guilts Luke with the ANH Leia mesaage, the sentiments that Yoda was expressing to Luke about kids/padawans growing beyond their masters, the touching moment between Luke and Leia in the final act and yes even force projection Luke was really cool and in character. But for me these moments are few and far between are no where near enough to make me change my opinion about the film.

Whilst I find JWFK entertaining and harmlessly stupid, some six months after the release of TLJ I am still incredibly disappointed by it, not just as a movie but also because of what it has done to the fanbase and the saga. For many people there is little to no anticipation for the next movie in the trilogy and that is inexcusable on Johnson's part. Episode 9 is also supposed to be the epic conclusion of a 9 part movie saga chronicling the Skywalker story but there are no Skywalkers left so I can't see how it can deliver on this unless parts of TLJ are retconned by JJ (perhaps Rey's parentage, Luke being dead or Reylo getting together and having a baby - I hope this last one doesn't happen!).

The funny thing with episode 8 is that I had no preconceptions about it beforehand. I loved the Star Wars EU and despite some reservations with TFA, I was feeling really positive about the ST. In fact, as I sat there on opening night the only thing I knew for certain was that I was going to really really like TLJ haha. Alas those trailers were brilliant though - whoever cut them was a genius!

Finally ... Just to confirm, despite my dislike for TLJ I am not a Spazz soc account - you can probably tell because my arguments aren't as eloquent lol.

Actually, your post is superior in that it combines eloquence with objective reasoning. You make a great case for the reasons you don't like TLJ (and I even agree with you completely about the humor). I don't aspire to make anyone feel that disliking TLJ is "wrong." Disliking the movie is perfectly valid, so long as the reasons for doing so are objective, or recognized as personal opinion rather than fact. Your dislike of the movie strikes me as perfectly valid because you backed it up rationally.

Great post, and thank you for providing a great read.

 

[a-dev]

I'll firmly admit that TFA and TLJ are quite simply not what I wanted and therefore, to me, they aren't canon. There's nothing wrong with that.

Hindsight such as it is I've realised I didn't need to see anything with Luke, Han and Leia after Return of the Jedi. I didn't need to see these characters have their happy ending ruined and all being killed off one by one.

 

[JAWS]

That's certainly a plausible interpretation. I think another plausible interpretation is that people enjoy watching the film because it's, you know . . . good. But then when it's over, the disappointment sets in because nothing happened the way you think it should have, or the way you would have preferred. ROTJ is no longer the end of the saga. Han is dead. Luke is dead. And now Leia (Carrie) is dead.

Having it take place "in the SW universe with characters I love from childhood" carries a burden. If you love those characters, you want them to continue being the same. When TLJ doesn't give you that, the immediate reflection is that the movie failed.

In reality, though, it didn't fail if all it did was recognize that Luke was 30 years older and had secluded himself on an island because he felt responsible for his nephew's turn to the dark (established in TFA). Han had just died (TFA), and we have a Leia whose 30 years older - knowing her son killed his father and leads the FO (set up in TFA), leading a Resistance that is dwindling in size by the minute.

TLJ inherited elements from TFA that had to go in a logical direction. Luke had to somehow have an altruistic reason for abandoning everyone. TLJ provided that. Leia had to remain the ever-hopeful spiritual (and tactical) leader in spite of a dead Han and a murderous son. TLJ gave us that Leia (but also made her fly/pull herself through space ).

Unless you're willing to completely ignore reality, you'll recognize that there is at least as much critical praise of TLJ for being brilliant as there is for it being awful. So, the truth could be one of those extremes - but likely somewhere in the middle. A "crap fest" is far from the impression I get when I look at it objectively. Oh well.

Yeah for me personally I just cant give it the "good" movie stamp of approval.. When I say "Crap fest" I guess I should have stressed that that is what the film turns into for ME

My only expectation was for a good Star Wars film.. While watching the film I ignore plot holes and story issues and bad characters because the film is made well.. But after the film is over all that I am left with is to ponder on the story and that is where the film fails drastically IMO.

I agree that there are those that like the film and think its brilliant and as wrong as I think (or know they are ) it is all about opinions and I was just stating mine.

I have gone into great detail about my issues with the film and I wont go over them again. Most of them don't have anything to do with Luke or his death, or my expectations of what was supposed to happen. It has more to do with story structure, character building, and character motivations.

It is what it is. I have excepted that the ST is not or me ( I don't like TFA either) . Unfortunately the fan divide may have effected how Solo did at the box office which in turn looks like its going to effect the other SW Story movies.. Which is unfortunate as I think those have been the best movies since the OT.

 

[a-dev]

It is what it is. I have excepted that the ST is not or me ( I don't like TFA either) . Unfortunately the fan divide may have effected how Solo did at the box office which in turn looks like its going to effect the other SW Story movies.. Which is unfortunate as I think those have been the best movies since the OT.

Indeed. And needless to say no matter what Episode 9 offers up, if TFA and TLJ aren't in my canon then neither can that be. For me it was all about the non-saga movies from here on...if anything at all, none of it actually being necessary.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I'll firmly admit that TFA and TLJ are quite simply not what I wanted and therefore, to me, they aren't canon. There's nothing wrong with that.

Hindsight such as it is I've realised I didn't need to see anything with Luke, Han and Leia after Return of the Jedi. I didn't need to see these characters have their happy ending ruined and all being killed off one by one.

You're absolutely right that there's nothing wrong with that. And openly stating it the way you did is perfectly reasonable.

But (some) people view critical acclaim for TLJ as the result of all those critics and reviewers being "bought off." That's dismissive and insulting to impartial viewers who actually agree with the critical acclaim.

The TLJ screenplay gets recently awarded for the best writing in its genre, only to be disregarded (by some - and not just on this forum) as politically/socially motivated praise. Again, a totally dismissive and insulting view instead of just acknowledging that reasonable people (even well-respected members of the film industry and people who don't hold those political views) genuinely hold that opinion.

Disliking a movie (or song, or novel, or anything artistic), and acknowledging that it's merely a personal opinion, is perfectly fine. No one would argue otherwise. But insisting that something is objectively "crap" or "garbage" in a way that causes you to dismiss tons of well-informed opinions to the contrary? That's what I have a problem with.

Opinions are just opinions; they're not facts. Some people seem to have a hard time understanding that. Your post (and Bravomite's before you) are totally reasonable. There are reasonable people on both sides of the TLJ debate. Unfortunately, there are dismissive provocateurs on both sides too. I'll leave it to you to determine which side most of them fall on.

Yeah for me personally I just cant give it the "good" movie stamp of approval.. When I say "Crap fest" I guess I should have stressed that that is what the film turns into for ME

My only expectation was for a good Star Wars film.. While watching the film I ignore plot holes and story issues and bad characters because the film is made well.. But after the film is over all that I am left with is to ponder on the story and that is where the film fails drastically IMO.

I agree that there are those that like the film and think its brilliant and as wrong as I think (or know they are ) it is all about opinions and I was just stating mine.

I have gone into great detail about my issues with the film and I wont go over them again. Most of them don't have anything to do with Luke or his death, or my expectations of what was supposed to happen. It has more to do with story structure, character building, and character motivations.

It is what it is. I have excepted that the ST is not or me ( I don't like TFA either) . Unfortunately the fan divide may have effected how Solo did at the box office which in turn looks like its going to effect the other SW Story movies.. Which is unfortunate as I think those have been the best movies since the OT.

Understood. I respect your opinion. I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy TLJ. It sucks that some Star Wars fans don't get to enjoy each entry in the franchise. Unfortunately, I know the feeling all too well from how the prequels are revolting to me.

 

[ShadowX81]

Actually, your post is superior in that it combines eloquence with objective reasoning. You make a great case for the reasons you don't like TLJ (and I even agree with you completely about the humor). I don't aspire to make anyone feel that disliking TLJ is "wrong." Disliking the movie is perfectly valid, so long as the reasons for doing so are objective, or recognized as personal opinion rather than fact. Your dislike of the movie strikes me as perfectly valid because you backed it up rationally.

Great post, and thank you for providing a great read.

Why it it up to you what reasons are considered valid for not liking a movie? A valid reason for thinking the film was bad could be as simple as "I didn't enjoy watching it." At the end of the day art is all subjective; and if the majority of people liked it or disliked it, it is irrelevant how closely it conforms to any film theories.

It doesn't exactly shoot down the notion that TLJ haters try to flood the internet with multiple versions of themselves in attempts to perpetuate a false narrative now does it, lol.

So you really think that all the hate this movie received can be boiled down to a small group of trolls making hundred of sock puppet accounts. Seems like a pretty ridiculous conspiracy theory.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Why it it up to you what reasons are considered valid for not liking a movie? A valid reason for thinking the film was bad could be as simple as "I didn't enjoy watching it." At the end of the day art is all subjective; and if the majority of people liked it or disliked it, it is irrelevant how closely it conforms to any film theories.

Maybe you missed where I said that there's nothing wrong with disliking something. In fact, I've mentioned that repeatedly! I'd never object to someone's opinion; and my personal opinion is no more valid than yours, or anyone else's. My problem, as I stated explicitly, is when people present as fact that something "sucks" or is "garbage." I think I've been consistent in saying that an opinion can't be "wrong" so I don't know where you're getting the impression that I've presented myself as someone who gets to decide upon the validity of an opinion. I don't. What I get to do is separate what is fact from what is opinion. Separating objective from subjective is something we all have authority to do.

 

[e30ernest]

So you really think that all the hate this movie received can be boiled down to a small group of trolls making hundred of sock puppet accounts. Seems like a pretty ridiculous conspiracy theory.

That isn't that far-fetched, like the FCC comments section on Net Neutrality in the USA.

I'm not saying they are all faked, but I do believe that the fan-base is split closer to 50:50, maybe 60:40 at worst. The internet is an echo-chamber, and it's very easy to get either side to get blown-out of proportion.

 

[a-dev]

At one time I was probably concerned with 'proving' that the prequels are objectively crap but at this point - while yes I still hold that view - I just don't care to try and prove it anymore. And so too with the sequels. My own opinion is enough for me. It's just movies. At this point I like precisely half of the existing Star Wars live action films, it's not a new thing for me to not like a Star Wars film, not at all.

 

[ShadowX81]

That isn't that far-fetched, like the FCC comments section on Net Neutrality in the USA.

I'm not saying they are all faked, but I do believe that the fan-base is split closer to 50:50, maybe 60:40 at worst. The internet is an echo-chamber, and it's very easy to get either side to get blown-out of proportion.

60/40 seems fair, but dismissing all of this movie's serious flaws as just a small, insignificant yet vocal group seems like a serious case of confirmation bias, and stops us from talking about the real quality of the movie.

One thing is for sure. This film changed things. Remember how before this, Rotten Tomatoes seemed like a pretty decent judge of a movie's quality? Now it seems to have highlighted how out of touch critics are, and how audience scores seem just to be written off as "Russian bots" or whatever if people disagree with them.

 

[Prime Clone]

Question for y’all: KK herself has said the main SW saga is about three generations of the Skywalker family.

So can that still be the case if the main protagonist is a “nobody”? Will JJ retcon Rey as a Skywalker (which may have been his original intention) or will this turn out to be Kylo’s story (like the first six episodes were Vader’s story)?

 

[pixletwin]

Question for y’all: KK herself has said the main SW saga is about three generations of the Skywalker family.

So can that still be the case if the main protagonist is a “nobody”? Will JJ retcon Rey as a Skywalker (which may have been his original intention) or will this turn out to be Kylo’s story (like the first six episodes were Vader’s story)?

If Rey has wee little Kylo babies that would make her a part of the Skywalker family.

 

[jye4ever]

Rose is Vader watch.

 

[Prime Clone]

If Rey has wee little Kylo babies that would make her a part of the Skywalker family.

So she'd be this trilogy's Han Solo (along with Poe and DJ!)

Rose is Vader watch.

At this point nothing would surprise.

And is this the latest they've ever started principal photography on a major SW ep?

 

[ShadowX81]

So she'd be this trilogy's Han Solo (along with Poe and DJ!)

On the plus side, hopefully this means that we only have 30 years to wait before we can see her unceremoniously stabbed and thrown off a bridge, while movie executives and journalists tells her fans that anyone who opposes this represents everything wrong with the world.

 

[cerealkeller]

If you’re already a fan of the movie it’s definately worth a read.

If not then these are not the paragraphs you’re looking for.

Thank you for posting this. Worthwhile read if you love what the Johnson was trying to do. Too long to go over every point, but I absolutely love the parts about Luke and his final actions.

Who wrote that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jye4ever]

A high level operative named Vehk you never heard of him.