Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[xipotec]

Ok...

The one thing that keeps bugging me, almost more than anything else, and never seems to get mentioned in any of the rants anywhere for/against "The Last Jedi" is this...

Are we going to find out how Luke's lightsaber took 38 years to get from Bespin to Maz Kanata's secret dungeon or not????

That kind of story will be a comic tie in or something....

Better to make the monies on a tie in than a free few seconds of dialogue.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[JAWS]

Personally I never found Luke to be out of character. I thought it was the one thing that TLJ did well. I think most of the credit has to go to Hamil for his preformance... Especially since he was not really happy with what they were doing.

I don;t agree with the "Luke is a Pacifist" thing that has been mentioned here. The breaking of a Speeder bike scout's neck proves that that is not the case

I just think that it again boils down to a movie that just lacks a good story and good ideas.

But again I think most of those bad ideas are found in the rest of the movie and not so much the stuff with Luke.

My biggest issues with the Luke story is the killing off of Luke.. I get the whole "Kill the past" idea that they want over in Kennedy land but IMO I think they could have just set this movie a hundred years in the future and nobody would have cared that the original cast was not in the film. It would have been much better IMO to do it that way instead of the path the two films chose. I agree with Hamill.. It was a missed opportunity. If you are going to get the original cast let them do something together. Instead we get an obvious death everyone should have seen coming as soon as we found out Han was in it (Ford always wanted to kill Han) and an uneventful head scratching death with Luke. I say head scratching because he has being IMO the best part of the ST. Anyways this is done so we can move on with these new characters in the final film?? A bit too late IMO so thus it was a failure in both execution and story.

And I will always fall back on this..

Make TLJ a better movie and nobody cares about Luke's path, Rose, Holdo, etc.. etc.. etc..

I know the film has its fans and they see a good movie in there somewhere and that is great for them. When I read and or watch why they do love it (Usually by twisting and jumping thorough hoops to prove why its a good movie) I can see why they like it. I don't agree but I can see why.

But I tend to find the non fans to make the better point and have to a lot less jumping through hoops to do that. f course it does not hurt that I come in with a bias

 

[JAWS]

Yeah Luke's wink to 3PO in TLJ links their history together in the OT but there's nothing in the OT that ever suggests that Vader had a history with the same droid, quite the opposite in fact.

2nd best part of TLJ. Luke's scene with R2 being best.

Vader making 3p0 is stupid.. Worse then midichlorians

 

[Khev]

My biggest issues with the Luke story is the killing off of Luke.. I get the whole "Kill the past" idea that they want over in Kennedy land

Johnson has actually clarified a couple times that "kill the past" is Kylo Ren's mantra, not LFL's. They didn't want to kill Han but Ford wouldn't have returned to the role otherwise. Obviously they didn't want to lose Carrie either. Only Luke was to die just to give him is own "Old Ben" moment but then assumedly coming back as a ghost. So systematically eradicating OT characters was never really the goal or desire of Kennedy and the powers that be.

2nd best part of TLJ.

And it was a total improv by Mark.

Vader making 3p0 is stupid.. Worse then midichlorians

There's literally not one single aspect of Anakin making 3PO that's cool. Everything about the idea and how it played out is utterly stupid, lol. Which sucks since at the time I'm allowing it back into the canon on account of Solo. lol

 

[myc]

Ok...


Are we going to find out how Luke's lightsaber took 38 years to get from Bespin to Maz Kanata's secret dungeon or not????

One of my most anticipated answers I was looking for at TLJ .. but the way Luke handled the saber.. I doubt we will ever know.. and it doesnt matter anymore anyways.. because the saber lost all its purpose and meaning in TLJ

FU Rian.. I cant say that often enough

 

[xipotec]

I don;t agree with the "Luke is a Pacifist" thing that has been mentioned here. The breaking of a Speeder bike scout's neck proves that that is not the case
lol

That occurred 30 years before the events in TLJ.

As did every event in OT. The idea is that AFTER the events of OT and the trauma of those events and the failure of his attempt at a Jedi Academy, he became pacifist like. His actions in TLJ clearly show he is not into direct violence .

People change after 30 years. Plenty of soldiers are pacifists or peaceful people after the horrors of war.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[ajp4mgs]

I know the film has its fans and they see a good movie in there somewhere and that is great for them. When I read and or watch why they do love it (Usually by twisting and jumping thorough hoops to prove why its a good movie) I can see why they like it. I don't agree but I can see why.

But I tend to find the non fans to make the better point and have to a lot less jumping through hoops to do that. f course it does not hurt that I come in with a bias

I'm a bit puzzled by the characterization of those who enjoy TLJ as "twisting and jumping through hoops" to explain it. Differing opinions just stem from different interpretations. I continue to enjoy TLJ every time I watch it, and I don't feel like I'm making myself jump through any hoops to get there. And, yes, I agree that most of the people here who don't like TLJ haven't been jumping through hoops either. It's just difference of opinions, and different personal preferences.

The only "twisting and jumping through hoops" that I've noticed is when people who hate TLJ are forced to explain the praise it gets from people in the industry. Here are some examples:

* Critics gave it overwhelmingly positive reviews. The explanation given: The critics are controlled by LFL/Disney, and can't say anything negative (even though the reviews for Solo were tepid at best). So, doesn't the dismissing of critical praise require some jumping through hoops?

* TLJ wins the Saturn award for Best Writing/screenplay. The explanation given: It's all politically-motivated.

* TLJ wins at the Empire Awards for Best Film and Best Director. The explanation given: ??? (probably that it's all political too).

So, fans who enjoyed the film - thereby interpreting it the same way as the vast majority of professional critics, and even members of some film academies - are the ones who have to jump through hoops to validate their point of view? I don't get it.

If you didn't like it, that's fine. If you think it was poorly written, that's fine. But if you can't acknowledge that plenty of people disagree (and not just fans) without having to use twisted logic, then I'm at a loss for why.

 

[a-dev]

Look lets just bug out and call it even. What the hell are we even talkin' about this forrrrr?

 

[Khev]

Maybe we could build a fire, quote a couple of lines.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Look lets just bug out and call it even. What the hell are we even talkin' about this forrrrr?

Maybe we could build a fire, quote a couple of lines.

(Just thought I should keep the ball rolling.)

 

[Popnfresh98]

....

(Of course it only matches up to the fade out)

 

[JAWS]

That occurred 30 years before the events in TLJ.

As did every event in OT. The idea is that AFTER the events of OT and the trauma of those events and the failure of his attempt at a Jedi Academy, he became pacifist like. His actions in TLJ clearly show he is not into direct violence .

People change after 30 years. Plenty of soldiers are pacifists or peaceful people after the horrors of war.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

I thought I read some references that Luke was a pacifist in ROTJ also.. Its what I was referring to. I did not make myself clear there. I would say he was more of a Pacifist in TLJ for sure. But films after ROTJ don't really exist anyways.

Johnson has actually clarified a couple times that "kill the past" is Kylo Ren's mantra, not LFL's. They didn't want to kill Han but Ford wouldn't have returned to the role otherwise. Obviously they didn't want to lose Carrie either. Only Luke was to die just to give him is own "Old Ben" moment but then assumedly coming back as a ghost. So systematically eradicating OT characters was never really the goal or desire of Kennedy and the powers that be.

Well they should have changed their Ideas about Luke once the cry baby Ford had to get his way

Strange how ford got to choose what happened to Han but Hamill was told to STFU

And it was a total improv by Mark.

Well that is even more awesome.

I'm a bit puzzled by the characterization of those who enjoy TLJ as "twisting and jumping through hoops" to explain it. Differing opinions just stem from different interpretations. I continue to enjoy TLJ every time I watch it, and I don't feel like I'm making myself jump through any hoops to get there. And, yes, I agree that most of the people here who don't like TLJ haven't been jumping through hoops either. It's just difference of opinions, and different personal preferences.

The only "twisting and jumping through hoops" that I've noticed is when people who hate TLJ are forced to explain the praise it gets from people in the industry. Here are some examples:

* Critics gave it overwhelmingly positive reviews. The explanation given: The critics are controlled by LFL/Disney, and can't say anything negative (even though the reviews for Solo were tepid at best). So, doesn't the dismissing of critical praise require some jumping through hoops?

* TLJ wins the Saturn award for Best Writing/screenplay. The explanation given: It's all politically-motivated.

* TLJ wins at the Empire Awards for Best Film and Best Director. The explanation given: ??? (probably that it's all political too).

So, fans who enjoyed the film - thereby interpreting it the same way as the vast majority of professional critics, and even members of some film academies - are the ones who have to jump through hoops to validate their point of view? I don't get it.

If you didn't like it, that's fine. If you think it was poorly written, that's fine. But if you can't acknowledge that plenty of people disagree (and not just fans) without having to use twisted logic, then I'm at a loss for why.

I have watched many reviews and read many reasons why people like the film... When I refer to jumping through hoops I mean they have done that to explain away plot holes or bad story ideas...

I did mention in my post that I am biased

I never took part of the whole "Why critics liked it" crap.. Fans of the film did the same thing with the Rotten Tomatoes audience score.. I avoided that also.. I focused on the film itself.

I am not going to rehash every issue I have with the film. I am never doing that again.. I have had well thought out discussions with members here on why I feel the way they do and have read and or listened to why they like it.. Hell I even admit to liking the film to a certain degree. But it is a terribly flawed film IMO with more negatives then posatives... If you don't agree.. Its fine.. I am sure you could explain to me why you like it and don't have the same issues I do.. Of course I would probably think you were jumping through hoops

 

[Khev]

I thought I read some references that Luke was a pacifist in ROTJ also.. Its what I was referring to. I did not make myself clear there. I would say he was more of a Pacifist in TLJ for sure. But films after ROTJ don't really exist anyways.

I think I've come to just accept that from here on out I'll simply have multiple SW canons instead of one set of films being the "real" ones and everything else being fan-fiction. I just like TFA and TLJ too much too throw the baby out with the bathwater on those. So whenever I feel like I want the OT characters to have happy endings then the Saga ends with ROTJ and when I want to enjoy them returning for incredibly well acted albeit tragic ends then I've got the ST. Such is the crazy flip-flopping that probably every SW fan has to do to one degree or another, lol.

Well they should have changed their Ideas about Luke once the cry baby Ford had to get his way

Strange how ford got to choose what happened to Han but Hamill was told to STFU

I think that LFL was probably so shocked that the stars would align in such a way that Ford agreed to come back on *any condition* that they tripped over themselves to make sure he was happy every step of the way, lol.

Well that is even more awesome.

Yeah Hamill was very vocal about TLJ not making a "Leia ignores Chewie" mistake with him and 3PO. Johnson had him walking out to face the FO after talking to Leia and Mark said that he spoke up and said "come on man me and 3PO go back to the very beginning you've got to let me acknowledge him." Go Mark. Like you said it made for one of the best moments in the film.

 

[JAWS]

I think I've come to just accept that from here on out I'll simply have multiple SW canons instead of one set of films being the "real" ones and everything else being fan-fiction. I just like TFA and TLJ too much too throw the baby out with the bathwater on those. So whenever I feel like I want the OT characters to have happy endings then the Saga ends with ROTJ and when I want to enjoy them returning for incredibly well acted albeit tragic ends then I've got the ST. Such is the crazy flip-flopping that probably every SW fan has to do to one degree or another, lol.

I am the same way with ALIEN 3... I actually really like that film... But ALIENS is the real ending. ALIEN 3 is some great fan fiction that I can ignore or choose to enjoy. I will always be able to watch the ST in some way because they are SW films... But they will never be official to me.

I think that LFL was probably so shocked that the stars would align in such a way that Ford agreed to come back on *any condition* that they tripped over themselves to make sure he was happy every step of the way, lol.

I don't get what Fords obsession with killing Han was.. I mean.. To come back and make the film just so you could kill him? Was he the same way with Jack Ryan?? Solo is far more interesting then Ryan

Yeah Hamill was very vocal about TLJ not making a "Leia ignores Chewie" mistake with him and 3PO. Johnson had him walking out to face the FO after talking to Leia and Mark said that he spoke up and said "come on man me and 3PO go back to the very beginning you've got to let me acknowledge him." Go Mark. Like you said it made for one of the best moments in the film.

Well this proves it... They should have listened to Hamill a little more

 

[Khev]

I am the same way with ALIEN 3... I actually really like that film... But ALIENS is the real ending.

Yep, exactly. Whenever I watch ALIENS I never get bummed at the end because I know they're all about to die because that *is* the end in my mind. But since I do enjoy A3 on its own I don't mind watching it from time to time as an alternate and tragic continuation of the series. For whatever reason I just don't feel like I have to be vocal about Alien 3 and the ST not "counting" (like I do with the PT and Alien: Resurrection) even though for the most part I don't consider them when watching the films that preceded them.

 

[xipotec]

Look lets just bug out and call it even. What the hell are we even talkin' about this forrrrr?

Never allow a Bill Paxton quote to go unanswered... RIP



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Prime Clone]

Well, okay then; I guess I should start embracing it now.

I've already gone ahead and changed some dialogue that can be re-dubbed when Disney puts out the next ESB Special Edition - to remind the audience that Anakin built C-3PO (and wouldn't have forgotten him):

View attachment 417928

Yeah Luke's wink to 3PO in TLJ links their history together in the OT but there's nothing in the OT that ever suggests that Vader had a history with the same droid, quite the opposite in fact.

Vader is hardly gonna say "Yippeee!!" right then, is he?

BTW Dark Horse Comics did quite a nice cutscene:

Vader making 3p0 is stupid.. Worse then midichlorians

Again, if the PT had come out before the OT we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I am sure you could explain to me why you like it and don't have the same issues I do.. Of course I would probably think you were jumping through hoops

Fair enough. I'll spare you a re-hash of my reasons for being a fan of the film so you don't have to endure another hoop-jumping performance. (You're welcome. )

Instead, I'll point out several things that I can't see myself ever defending about TLJ - in the interest of fairness.

1.) Canto Bight. Everything about it; everything that motivated it; and everything that stems from it. Terrible!

2.) Leia Poppins. It's not just the surviving in space (questionable science is okay with me in SW). It's not even the fact that her body survived the concussive impact that shattered the windows of the bridge in front of her, yet seemingly did little to no damage to her bones and organs. It's just that Leia's force abilities being demonstrated in this way begs a whole host of questions and nonsense that'll never be explained. So unnecessary, and so easily avoidable. And a regrettable visual too, IMO.

3.) Luke's lightsaber toss. I think it was done for shock value more than anything. I found it insulting to the foundations of the character, and to us as fans. I don't care that it fits his abandonment of Jedi philosophy; that plot would not have suffered at all from a different handling of that initial lightsaber exchange.

4.) Rose's "not by killing what we hate . . . " quote. The stupidity speaks for itself.

5.) The Marvel-style humor. It wasn't excessive, but it still annoys me plenty. Star Wars never had it, and definitely doesn't need it.

Everything else was either tolerable at worst, or something that I was absolutely impressed with at best.

Vader is hardly gonna say "Yippeee!!" right then, is he?

Again, if the PT had come out before the OT we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I was just messin' with you about the Vader/Threepio scene. You're right that even if Vader recognized his old droid, he wouldn't let it be known in that moment. I just don't think Lucas ever even gave one second of consideration to Anakin building C-3PO when he was writing the OT. Making the Anakin connection to C-3PO later seems out of left field to me, and hurt the integrity of the story for the sake of pandering by making so many OT elements connect to the PT for no reason (like Boba Fett, and Jabba).

If the sequential order of the films was the chronological order of their release, I think I'd still have the same objection - but my objection would be with Episode 4 instead of with Episode 1. Having Anakin build Threepio, and Padme owning Artoo, would still make for one crazy coincidence when Luke encounters and inherits his parents' droids. The droids were meant for Kenobi; Luke only intercepted them by chance. And if not by chance or coincidence, then fate/the Force would have to be pulling strings to tie everything together just for dramatic effect. Why would anyone want that to be part of SW saga subtext? So that Luke's life had just been some puppet show orchestrated by fate/the Force/the Whills for the sake of sentimental drama?

 

[Prime Clone]

3.) Luke's lightsaber toss. I think it was done for shock value more than anything. I found it insulting to the foundations of the character, and to us as fans. I don't care that it fits his abandonment of Jedi philosophy; that plot would not have suffered at all from a different handling of that initial lightsaber exchange.

Precisely. Even cynical old Han had a better reaction when he saw the saber. Ironically Han's whole attitude to The Force was better than Luke's.

Having Anakin build Threepio, and Padme owning Artoo, would still make for one crazy coincidence when Luke encounters and inherits his parents' droids. The droids were meant for Kenobi; Luke only intercepted them by chance. And if not by chance or coincidence, then fate/the Force would have to be pulling strings to tie everything together just for dramatic effect.

Until the ST the droids were the central observers of the saga, they were there for all the pivotal events. They were almost like the narrators of the PT/OT. So between that and Qui-Gon saying "nothing happens by accident" we can probably forgive such storytelling liberties, can't we?

 

[JAWS]

Fair enough. I'll spare you a re-hash of my reasons for being a fan of the film so you don't have to endure another hoop-jumping performance. (You're welcome. )

Instead, I'll point out several things that I can't see myself ever defending about TLJ - in the interest of fairness.

1.) Canto Bight. Everything about it; everything that motivated it; and everything that stems from it. Terrible!

2.) Leia Poppins. It's not just the surviving in space (questionable science is okay with me in SW). It's not even the fact that her body survived the concussive impact that shattered the windows of the bridge in front of her, yet seemingly did little to no damage to her bones and organs. It's just that Leia's force abilities being demonstrated in this way begs a whole host of questions and nonsense that'll never be explained. So unnecessary, and so easily avoidable. And a regrettable visual too, IMO.

3.) Luke's lightsaber toss. I think it was done for shock value more than anything. I found it insulting to the foundations of the character, and to us as fans. I don't care that it fits his abandonment of Jedi philosophy; that plot would not have suffered at all from a different handling of that initial lightsaber exchange.

4.) Rose's "not by killing what we hate . . . " quote. The stupidity speaks for itself.

5.) The Marvel-style humor. It wasn't excessive, but it still annoys me plenty. Star Wars never had it, and definitely doesn't need it.

Everything else was either tolerable at worst, or something that I was absolutely impressed with at best.

We have many of the same issues.. Of course I have many more but just to let you know I am not the hater of this film as some others are. Mostly because I like Hamill as Luke and enjoyed all the scenes he was in.

For me I am not a fan of much that this ST has had to offer. Its still SW so I can find things to like but I just don't like the feel or the plot direction of these films.

Good to see you did not jump though any hoops to defend Leia Poppins but I have seen that, even here on this board

I don't think anyone has tried to defend the Rose speech.. Thank goodness... Its the worst Logic at the worst time, ever

Like I said though its cool you like the film overall.

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