Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[loki2371]

You're thinking too much about logic. It was the minutiae of detail with which Lucas bogged down the PT.

Think of it as a Saturday morning serial. Ming the Merciless has destroyed a bunch of planets and only Flash Gordon and his close allies stand against him.

The Resistance was a separate force within the New Republic. The implication is that the nobody else has the stomach to put up a fight, or they just aren't ready to make a stand yet. It's a narrative device to tell a specific story, focussing on Leia.

Yeah you can look at it that way, but again Flash Gordon didn't span 40 years of a continued story through multiple mediums all interconnected (Movies, Animated series, Novels, Comic Books, and even (ugh) Video Games). It's still just lazy and bad story telling. No cohesiveness quickly takes the long time fan/follower quickly out of the story.

Also, we really don't know the true size of the FO's military forces. If Starkiller base is THE base of operations for the FO, and we saw the majority of their forces at the pep rally led by Hitler, I mean Hux in TFA, then they don't look too big. Not galaxy spanning at least. Just a small sized force with really powerful weapons. And knowing the New Republic has 100's of planets, even 25% of their forces that remained after disbanding the other 75%, would still likely out number the FO. The FO isn't large enough to attack every planet that's a member of the New Republic all at once. So it would take time. Time given to rally the other 75% of the army back to duty. All those ships, big and small, and soldiers are sitting somewhere in a state of decommission. I highly doubt they were dismantled for parts. The FO is still the serious under dog here.

The Empire ruled immediately, because the Emperor/Chancelor was already the head of the Old Republic. He didn't over throw the government through force. He defeated their 'Phantom" enemy in the Trade Federation, then simply assumed control after having been elected, and turned the "Republic" into the Empire. It happened over the span of years during the Clone Wars. Not in a matter of a day or two like Snoke's FO. Palpatine planned for years and years.

 

[Asta]

Yeah you can look at it that way, but again Flash Gordon didn't span 40 years of a continued story through multiple mediums all interconnected (Movies, Animated series, Novels, Comic Books, and even (ugh) Video Games). It's still just lazy and bad story telling. No cohesiveness quickly takes the long time fan/follower quickly out of the story.

Also, we really don't know the true size of the FO's military forces. If Starkiller base is THE base of operations for the FO, and we saw the majority of their forces at the pep rally led by Hitler, I mean Hux in TFA, then they don't look too big. Not galaxy spanning at least. Just a small sized force with really powerful weapons. And knowing the New Republic has 100's of planets, even 25% of their forces that remained after disbanding the other 75%, would still likely out number the FO. The FO isn't large enough to attack every planet that's a member of the New Republic all at once. So it would take time. Time given to rally the other 75% of the army back to duty. All those ships, big and small, and soldiers are sitting somewhere in a state of decommission. I highly doubt they were dismantled for parts. The FO is still the serious under dog here.

The Empire ruled immediately, because the Emperor/Chancelor was already the head of the Old Republic. He didn't over throw the government through force. He defeated their 'Phantom" enemy in the Trade Federation, then simply assumed control after having been elected, and turned the "Republic" into the Empire. It happened over the span of years during the Clone Wars. Not in a matter of a day or two like Snoke's FO. Palpatine planned for years and years.

The present canon description of the New Republic on Wookiepedia:

Following the end of the war with the signing of the Galactic Concordance in 5 ABY, the Republic hastily passed the Military Disarmament Act seeking to prevent a repeat of galactic history; and instead focused on strengthening the forces of local planetary governments and reconstruction efforts to worlds ravaged by the conflict. A fraction of the size of the former Galactic Republic and Empire, the New Republic remained on friendly terms with a majority of galactic systems owing to the egalitarian processes that it embodied into its political message. Briefly inhabiting a wing of New Republic politics, the First Order would eventually secede from the greater body once tensions reached a breaking point. While many applauded the motion, others realized that without Republic oversight, the First Order would return to the draconian ways of its predecessor.

With a galactic hunger for peace, many senators—some receiving large sums of credits from their First Order beneficiaries—dismissed notions that the First Order posed a threat to the Republic, believing that reports of its strength were exaggerated by the 'warmonger' Leia Organa and her Resistance. The New Republic was thus utterly unprepared when the cold war turned hot in 34 ABY, and the First Order finally revealed its true intentions with a lethal surprise attack that resulted in the destruction of the Republic capital in the Hosnian system. Leaderless and with no appreciable defenses against a burgeoning foe, the New Republic stood on the brink of disaster.

 

[Khev]

Yes, but TLJ starts with the battle -- so are you saying you envision Rey and Luke frozen, staring at each other all that time while the battle with Poe and Rose's sister wages on? If not, then TLJ starts with a back-up in time, then catches back up to where TFA actually left off. Its awkward.

I might be able to clarify better if I assign some actual days to illustrate my mindset.

Let's say that at the end of TFA Rey takes off in the Falcon on "Monday" and flies off. Then the film edits her four day travel down to a few quick cuts of her flying through hyperspace and then she arrives on the island on "Friday." She gets out and sees Luke. The end.

TLJ then begins *on* Friday with her once again in front of Luke but in the four days since she left the Resistance base Poe had geared up and flown to another system to meet up with a squad of bombers. So without going back in time TLJ siimply begins on that same Friday with the FO arriving at the Illinium System, Poe returning, and Rey talking to Luke. Does that make sense?

 

[loki2371]

The present canon description of the New Republic on Wookiepedia:

Well, thanks for posting that.. But seriously absolutely NONE of any of that is even remotely implied to in either TFA or TLJ. That should've been the crawl of TFA, not this statement :

"Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed. With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy. Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts…. "

And when was that written? "many senators—some receiving large sums of credits from their First Order beneficiaries"

It sounds more like a written addendum after the events of TLJ. And using the casino bits as to showing everyone's greed..

 

[a-dev]

That's a confusing statement. If this was in fact Ep9 and the end of the "new" trilogy, then your statement would hold merit. The fans who don't like TLJ can ignore it, and pretend it never happened, But it's not. The saga is continuing. this is the middle part and we need to see how, like all the others, it continues to affect the story telling of what will happen in Ep9 and possibly beyond. One bad link ruins the whole chain..

Yes, TLJ being problematic will affect Episode 9, but need not affect how you view the OT (or the PT if you like those). Nothing in those films is reliant on what comes later in the sequel trilogy. Thus the sequels can be safely ignored if that trilogy ultimately ends up fubar.

 

[Khev]

I just made a couple tweaks that I think would have gone a long way:

"Luke Skywalker has vanished. After decades of peace the mysterious SUPREME LEADER SNOKE has risen a new FIRST ORDER out of the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed. With only partial support of the NEW REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy. Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts…. "

 

[Vault Boy]

Mark Hamill washes his hands of it.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I might be able to clarify better if I assign some actual days to illustrate my mindset.

Let's say that at the end of TFA Rey takes off in the Falcon on "Monday" and flies off. Then the film edits her four day travel down to a few quick cuts of her flying through hyperspace and then she arrives on the island on "Friday." She gets out and sees Luke. The end.

TLJ then begins *on* Friday with her once again in front of Luke but in the four days since she left the Resistance base Poe had geared up and flown to another system to meet up with a squad of bombers. So without going back in time TLJ siimply begins on that same Friday with the FO arriving at the Illinium System, Poe returning, and Rey talking to Luke. Does that make sense?

Yes, I totally get what you are saying the last 3 times. Clearly, you're not understanding me.

Let me illustrate it this way for you: let's connect both films at the point it matches: Rey holding out the lightsaber to Luke...

TFA ends with Luke looking to Rey holding out the saber. Cut to Poe's battle with the FO and Rose's sister dying -- all that action. Then cut back to Luke and Rey still standing there, having not moved for all that time.

Is that how you see it? If its all taking place in the same timeline, then it seems like a long wait time on Luke and Rey just standing there.

 

[loki2371]

Yes, TLJ being problematic will affect Episode 9, but need not affect how you view the OT (or the PT if you like those). Nothing in those films is reliant on what comes later in the sequel trilogy. Thus the sequels can be safely ignored if that trilogy ultimately ends up fubar.

I do agree, and it won't. I will continue to be a SW "OT" fan for life. But I, like probably most fans, want to continue to enjoy the SW mythology. Not just throw up my hands in defeat and exclaim "At least I have the OT (& PT)"

The only way I could justify saying the ST doesn't exist for me, is if this ends with Ep9.. Nothing happens beyond that. And instead Disney & Johnson in his new trilogy explore the thousands of years of the past, and do it well I might add...

 

[Khev]

Yes, I totally get what you are saying the last 3 times. Clearly, you're not understanding me.

Let me illustrate it this way for you: let's connect both films

TFA ends with Luke looking to Rey holding out the saber. Cut to Poe's battle with the FO and Rose's sister dying -- all that action. Then cut back to Luke and Rey still standing there, having not moved for all that time.

Is that how you see it? If its all taking place in the same timeline, then it seems like a long wait time on Luke and Rey just standing there.

Oh, no I didn't picture that Rey was standing silently in front of Luke during the entire battle. I figured the battle would have been raging as she was walking up the steps.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Oh, no I didn't picture that Rey was standing silently in front of Luke during the entire battle. I figured the battle would have been raging as she was walking up the steps.

OK, that's my point. There's a 'jump back' in time then.

Either TFA has a flash forward...

Or TLJ has a jump back in time to show the battle, then catches back up in time where TFA left off.

In either case, there's a weird time-adjust to make it work in a timeline. That's all I'm saying. Either Rian boned JJ by making his moment a flash-forward, or Rian's movie opens slightly back in time from where the audience "last left off."

 

[loki2371]

Oh, no I didn't picture that Rey was standing silently in front of Luke during the entire battle. I figured the battle would have been raging as she was walking up the steps.

On that note, why didn't the Resistance reach out to Rey? Since they obviously had that ability and could communicate with Maz and send for help. Chewie and R2 were nowhere to be seen. So I guess they hung out on the Falcon with Chewie's new past time of torturing the Porgs for laughs.. They would've received the message, informed Rey, who would've informed Luke. And after hearing of his sister in distress, and finding out Han's death (which is ridiculous he didn't feel it through the force, closed off or not, he never would've turned his back on his friends. The Jedi, maybe, but definitely not Leia & Han especially since he let them down with Kylo) he should've changed his tune. Not a nostalgic viewing of the Leia message hologram through R2 (although one of the best scenes, and one of the few scenes I enjoyed, of the movie)

Just way too many important plot points left to the viewers assumptions... All supporting how badly written and directed this movie was.

 

[TonTon]

On that note, why didn't the Resistance reach out to Rey? Since they obviously had that ability and could communicate with Maz and send for help. Chewie and R2 were nowhere to be seen. So I guess they hung out on the Falcon with Chewie's new past time of torturing the Porgs for laughs.. They would've received the message, informed Rey, who would've informed Luke. And after hearing of his sister in distress, and finding out Han's death (which is ridiculous he didn't feel it through the force, closed off or not, he never would've turned his back on his friends. The Jedi, maybe, but definitely not Leia & Han especially since he let them down with Kylo) he should've changed his tune. Not a nostalgic viewing of the Leia message hologram through R2 (although one of the best scenes, and one of the few scenes I enjoyed, of the movie)

Just way too many important plot points left to the viewers assumptions... All supporting how badly written and directed this movie was.

But don't you think TFA created the problem with Luke's story/motivations more than TLJ? Was he supposed to snap back into action based on Han's death and the destruction of the Republic? But why was he out there in hiding to begin with while the First Order led by his nephew was rising up to power?

 

[loki2371]

The timeline in itself is problematic. We know the slowest chase in scifi history takes place over xx amount of hours, but do not know how long it took place after the ending of TFA. We know, or at least logically can assume, Rey is with Luke for a least a couple of days (Not hours), but we don't know at what time she got there. The problem is putting these 2 timelines together that make sense. Too much is happening relatively at the the same time...

 

[Khev]

OK, that's my point. There's a 'jump back' in time then.

Either TFA has a flash forward...

Or TLJ has a jump back in time to show the battle, then catches back up in time where TFA left off.

In either case, there's a weird time-adjust to make it work in a timeline. That's all I'm saying. Either Rian boned JJ by making his moment a flash-forward, or Rian's movie opens slightly back in time from where the audience "last left off."

Oh, okay then. I guess stuff like that isn't a bother to me. I remember back in the 90's when all people had to chat about was the OT and someone called out that for the Millennium Falcon to be traveling slower than the speed of light from Hoth to Bespin that it literally would have taken months or something to go from one solar system to another and that's assuming that Bespin's system was right next to Hoth. Which then doesn't jive with Luke seemingly being trained for a few days on Dagobah before flying to meet them the same day Han and Leia arrived on Cloud City. So I just find it's best not to think too hard about such things, lol.

 

[loki2371]

But don't you think TFA created the problem with Luke's story/motivations more than TLJ? Was he supposed to snap back into action based on Han's death and the destruction of the Republic? But why was he out there in hiding to begin with while the First Order led by his nephew was rising up to power?

The problem was created because 2 directors made 2 movies without any collaboration. Both had their own ideas and ran with it. So it's hard to lay the blame onto either JJ (TFA) or Johnson (TLJ). But rather onto Kennedy and her story group who approved of these scripts, and obviously didn't really care. An example of why there needs to be a true overseer like Feige is for marvel. Who can veto and force change to the scripting.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Feige > Kennedy

 

[Khev]

Uh on, now someone is going to say Rose > Fett and we'll be back to square one, lol.

 

[Chakor]

Finally caught this POS via torrent and... I have no real words for it. Aside from some of the stuff with Kylo, there really wasn't anything I liked about it.

4/10

 

[Sachiel]

The only way I could justify saying the ST doesn't exist for me, is if this ends with Ep9.. Nothing happens beyond that.

The Skywalker bloodline will end in Episode 9.

The NST (New Sequel Trilogy) will have Rey, Finn, Rose, Poe and BB-8 without those stinking Skywalkers. Then they'll really be able to shine!

More Rey Skywalker (she took that too) being good at everything and just being BAD ASS! More Finn acting like a goofball! More Rose releasing animals from captivity (only for them to all be caught again a few days later)! More Poe flying anything (he can fly anything, you know)! More BB-8 being quirky and cute! More White (human) Supremacist villains!