Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[Craig Walker]

Don't think it's been posted..

I saw it a few weeks ago. Couple of hilarious lines:

"I wish I was making this $*** up..."

"Carrie Fisher is at the rebel base, having mistaken the planets' salt for cocaine..."

 

[a-dev]

If that's somewhat directed towards me I'm not sure I follow. I only mentioned how in ROTJ The Emperor & Vader were defeated and the Empire was sent retreating. Everything else I said is from TFA & TLJ...

And even if one doesn't like one or multiple movies in the SW series, they are all interconnected. You can't simply ignore what happened in one movie because you didn't like it. That's one of the biggest problems many have with TLJ. It crapped on everything that came before it... 8 movies worth.

But doesn't the fact it came after all those movies make it actually easier to ignore? TLJ relies on everything that came before but everything that came before does not rely on TLJ.

 

[loki2371]

Is there an official word on how much time passed between TFA and TLJ? On my first viewing I thought TLJ might even be occurring literally the exact same day that TFA ended, but then I remembered that Poe comes out of hyperspace followed by bombers from some other system when TFA ended with him on the ground waving Rey off in non-flight military apparel.

Exactly...

See you yourself are acknowledging some of the many flaws in this movie. It's ok if you like it, but you can still admit that it's a mess!! It's confusing on so many levels, and that is why it is such a poorly written and directed movie. Sure it can have lots of cool and beautiful scenes, but in the larger scope of story telling, it's an epic fail...

 

[Asta]

So after your comments Khev, I watched the opening crawl form TLJ... I now remember another problem I have with the movie. Remember its immedietly set after TFA. How is it possible in a day or 2 that Snoke & the FO have "Decimated the peaceful republic, Snoke NOW deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy", as in it's happening NOW, not already happened. There are hundreds upon hundreds of planets in the New Republic. They just started the war, we have no idea if they've one. That is more than likely why no one sent reinforcements to Leia, cause everyone else was already in their own battle against the FO. They don't actually rule anything yet.

Decimate means one in ten, but it's often misappropriated to mean almost complete destruction. (It was the 1 in 10 Roman soldiers killed to pay for their unit's failure).

I think they destroyed five planets in TFA including Hosnian Prime, which was the capital of the New Republic and home of the Galactic Senate.

 

[loki2371]

But doesn't the fact it came after all those movies make it actually easier to ignore? TLJ relies on everything that came before but everything that came before does not rely on TLJ.

That's a confusing statement. If this was in fact Ep9 and the end of the "new" trilogy, then your statement would hold merit. The fans who don't like TLJ can ignore it, and pretend it never happened, But it's not. The saga is continuing. this is the middle part and we need to see how, like all the others, it continues to affect the story telling of what will happen in Ep9 and possibly beyond. One bad link ruins the whole chain..

 

[Wor-Gar]

Yep.

RO/SW/ESB > SW/ESB/ROTJ

Yep.

Is there an official word on how much time passed between TFA and TLJ? On my first viewing I thought TLJ might even be occurring literally the exact same day that TFA ended, but then I remembered that Poe comes out of hyperspace followed by bombers from some other system when TFA ended with him on the ground waving Rey off in non-flight military apparel.

The timeline is messy from the get-go. The crawl suggests time has past, the opening battle suggests that time has past -- then CUT TO Luke and Rey frozen in that moment at the end of TFA. Did we go back in time? Did it take months for Rey to travel thru hyperspace to Luke's island? What the hell happened here?

 

[loki2371]

Decimate means one in ten, but it's often misappropriated to mean almost complete destruction. (It was the 1 in 10 Roman soldiers killed to pay for their unit's failure).

I think they destroyed five planets in TFA including Hosnian Prime, which was the capital of the New Republic and home of the Galactic Senate.

OK, so that means the 1 in 10 with a multiplier of 5 (5 destroyed planets), means 5 of 50 planets were destroyed. There are still 45 planets the FO need to "Conquer" in order to control the galaxy. Again it is implied in the crawl that the FO have already done so in mere hours..

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

I actually like it when people present ROTJ as being untouchable because it completely destroys any credibility in criticizing the Disney flicks.

I wouldn't say it's untouchable. I liked it a lot more when I was a kid than I do now for obvious reasons. It is firmly behind SW and ESB, fun but a lot more bubblegum-y than the preceding films. I'll concede that in this case nostalgia probably does get in the way.

I do like RO a lot. A bit slow in the early-middle and they did a couple irritating things. But it was a well done movie and the last hour or so was exciting and cool.

 

[Wor-Gar]

TFA ends in cheers at the complete destruction of Starkiller Base and the FO on the run... then, moments later in time, the new crawl suggests that's a "win" for the FO who now reigns.

Snoke's FO is totally the Trump Whitehouse.

 

[Khev]

Exactly...

See you yourself are acknowledging some of the many flaws in this movie. It's ok if you like it, but you can still admit that it's a mess!! It's confusing on so many levels, and that is why it is such a poorly written and directed movie. Sure it can have lots of cool and beautiful scenes, but in the larger scope of story telling, it's an epic fail...

Well not knowing the exact amount of days between films does not necessarily equate to a flaw in the narrative. ESB never said "three years have passed," likewise ROTJ is very vague about how long it look everyone to go from the Rebel fleet in ESB to Jabba's palace.

That being said I actually do agree with the naysayers who complain that TFA and TLJ are *too* vague about how the FO came into power. I get that it isn't important to the individual character arcs that we're watching play out in real time on screen but since these films are part of a larger saga it would have been nice to have received better clarification as to how ROTJ segued into the events of TFA, even with the 30 year gap.

I mentioned a couple years ago that when I binged the OT + TFA on blu-ray that it was very strange to finish ROTJ, put in TFA and be hit with "Luke Skywalker has vanished." I mean if you had no context as to release dates and were just watching the episodes in order you'd literally be thinking "Vanished? What? From Endor? He disappeared? What's going on?" You'd have absolutely no idea that the FO rose from the ashes 30 years later until Han Solo showed up with grey hair. That's where the films (Abrams specifically) left too much for the audience to figure out based on "out of movie" knowledge.

 

[loki2371]

TFA ends in cheers at the complete destruction of Starkiller Base and the FO on the run... then, moments later in time, the new crawl suggests that's a "win" for the FO who now reigns.

Snoke's FO is totally the Trump Whitehouse.

....

 

[Asta]

OK, so that means the 1 in 10 with a multiplier of 5 (5 destroyed planets), means 5 of 50 planets were destroyed. There are still 45 planets the FO need to "Conquer" in order to control the galaxy. Again it is implied in the crawl that the FO have already done so in mere hours..

But they've cut the head off by destroying Hosnian Prime, so now they are presumably going in for the kill during a period of confusion and loss of government.

The crawl says they've decimated the New Republic and are now deploying forces to seize control. It's the present tense, the forces are currently being deployed to undertake that mission.

Only Leia's forces have risen to the challenge.

 

[Khev]

The timeline is messy from the get-go. The crawl suggests time has past, the opening battle suggests that time has past -- then CUT TO Luke and Rey frozen in that moment at the end of TFA. Did we go back in time? Did it take months for Rey to travel thru hyperspace to Luke's island? What the hell happened here?

That's the only assumption that makes sense to me. Not necessarily months but days at the minimum. We know from ANH that traveling from Tatooine to Alderaan didn't take a few seconds (like we saw when Rey departed at the end of TFA) so I think it's safe to assume that her travel to Ach-To was glossed over in the interest of wrapping up the film.

 

[loki2371]

Well not knowing the exact amount of days between films does not necessarily equate to a flaw in the narrative. ESB never said "three years have passed," likewise ROTJ is very vague about how long it look everyone to go from the Rebel fleet in ESB to Jabba's palace.

That being said I actually do agree with the naysayers who complain that TFA and TLJ are *too* vague about how the FO came into power. I get that it isn't important to the individual character arcs that we're watching play out in real time on screen but since these films are part of a larger saga it would have been nice to have received better clarification as to how ROTJ segued into the events of TFA, even with the 30 year gap.

I mentioned a couple years ago that when I binged the OT + TFA on blu-ray that it was very strange to finish ROTJ, put in TFA and be hit with "Luke Skywalker has vanished." I mean if you had no context as to release dates and were just watching the episodes in order you'd literally be thinking "Vanished? What? From Endor? He disappeared? What's going on?" You'd have absolutely no idea that the FO rose from the ashes 30 years later until Han Solo showed up with grey hair. That's where the films (Abrams specifically) left too much for the audience to figure out based on "out of movie" knowledge.

... see we can still be civil and friendly to each other even having different opinions on this travesty of story telling...

 

[Khev]

... see we can still be civil and friendly to each other even having different opinions on this travesty of story telling...

 

[Wor-Gar]

That's the only assumption that makes sense to me. Not necessarily months but days at the minimum. We know from ANH that traveling from Tatooine to Alderaan didn't take a few seconds (like we saw when Rey departed at the end of TFA) so I think it's safe to assume that her travel to Ach-To was glossed over in the interest of wrapping up the film.

In any event, its a strange cut -- because it then assumes that in TFA we jumped ahead in time to see Rey meet Luke. Which then passes the awkward buck off to TFA. Thanks, Rian.

I personally prefer to think of it as a time jump back in time in TLJ to then catch up with Rey's story. But either option is a little strange.

 

[loki2371]

But they've cut the head off by destroying Hosnian Prime, so now they are presumably going in for the kill during a period of confusion and loss of government.

The crawl says they've decimated the New Republic and are now deploying forces to seize control. It's the present tense, the forces are currently being deployed to undertake that mission.

Only Leia's forces have risen to the challenge.

Yeah, that's the problem. everything is happening in real time, the "now" of the story.

If you use logic, then let's compare it to a war within the U.S. If Hosnian Prime is the white house and Washington DC, all the senators and president are killed. And say that includes the Pentagon. There are still numerous military bases around the country. They don't give up and surrender when the President and senate are taken out. Thus begins the war. The FO merely won a major victory/battle during a single surprise attack. The war has just begun. The TLJ opening crawl suggests it already happened & the FO won a war that just started.

 

[Khev]

In any event, its a strange cut -- because it then assumes that in TFA we jumped ahead in time to see Rey meet Luke. Which then passes the awkward buck off to TFA. Thanks, Rian.

I personally prefer to think of it as a time jump back in time in TLJ to then catch up with Rey's story. But either option is a little strange.

I guess I'm not following. The way I see it TFA ended with some quick cuts showing Rey traveling for several days through hyperspace to meet Luke. The end. TLJ begins in the present (no time jump) with Rey on the island where she left off in TFA (again, several days after waving goodbye to everyone in the Illinium System) with the Resistance in mid-evacuation and Poe coming back with the bombers.

 

[Asta]

Yeah, that's the problem. everything is happening in real time, the "now" of the story.

If you use logic, then let's compare it to a war within the U.S. If Hosnian Prime is the white house and Washington DC, all the senators and president are killed. And say that includes the Pentagon. There are still numerous military bases around the country. They don't give up and surrender when the President and senate are taken out. Thus begins the war. The FO merely won a major victory/battle during a single surprise attack. The war has just begun.

You're thinking too much about logic. It was the minutiae of detail with which Lucas bogged down the PT.

Think of it as a Saturday morning serial. Ming the Merciless has destroyed a bunch of planets and only Flash Gordon and his close allies stand against him.

The Resistance was a separate force within the New Republic. The implication is that the nobody else has the stomach to put up a fight, or they just aren't ready to make a stand yet. It's a narrative device to tell a specific story, focussing on Leia.


Star Wars (as a series) has been elevated (by some viewers) far beyond it's original intent. It was a rip-roaring tale of high adventure, with gun slingers and magicians flying spaceships rather than riding horses. And because it was fanstasy you could hear the spaceships in space, because that's more fun than the silence of 2001: A Space Odyssey. And because it's fantasy you can have impossibly large spaceships and space stations, which would make very little sense in real life since it's far better to be able to split your resources for security.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I guess I'm not following. The way I see it TFA ended with some quick cuts showing Rey traveling for several days through hyperspace to meet Luke. The end. TLJ begins in the present (no time jump) with Rey on the island where she left off in TFA (again, several days after waving goodbye to everyone in the Illinium System) with the Resistance in mid-evacuation and Poe coming back with the bombers.

Yes, but TLJ starts with the battle -- so are you saying you envision Rey and Luke frozen, staring at each other all that time while the battle with Poe and Rose's sister wages on? If not, then TLJ starts with a back-up in time, then catches back up to where TFA actually left off. Its awkward.