Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[DarthBakura]

Oh **** yes. I can’t wait for films set hundreds of years after. Also, if someone doesn’t make an Old Republic film, then I’ll start flipping tables.

 

[crows]

Oh please, start watching this video at 9:30 to hear Peter Serafinowicz (the voice of Darth Maul) perfectly capture the disappointment we all felt after waiting 16 years for a new SW movie and getting The Phantom Menace:



Never forget...

i dont know why but i didnt feel as bad back then as i did now

back then phantom menace felt bad but it felt like a bad star wars movie. it felt like a bad episode of a tv show
same goes with alien or x men origins. they were bad.... but they felt like bad episodes of a good universe.

the prequels were bad but felt like bad star wars movies


this movie just feels like a bad fan fiction tale. some of it doesnt even resemble star wars. some of it felt closer to a bad star trek movie. i think thats the problem too. they changed so much with this movie that things like the casino stuff belongs in a Riddick movie or something like that.

im not defending the prequels but they didnt feel as different. jar jar was an embarrasment. but other stuff felt good

in here even leia and luke are embarrassing, thats the problem

 

[DarthBakura]

Riddick? Have you seen those films?

I’m not saying I like the subplot, but the idea of the casino itself isn’t beyond Star Wars.

 

[TaliBane]

I take Mark as being 100% honest every step of the way. I *do* believe that he had major issues with how his character was presented (as he stated point blank) and I *do* believe that he didn't think that Rian's Luke matched up with the Luke in his own personal head canon. And he may have even butted heads with Rian every step of the way. But that can be very good! God knows George needed people to butt heads with. We know how famously Ford declared "You can write this **** George but you can't say it." A principal star badmouthing the dialogue of one of the absolute greatest films of all time!

But in the end Hamill was a professional and gave it his all and to his credit never remotely sabotaged a single scene that he was in whether he approved of it or not. And then after the film was released and he heard some loud fans echoing some of his sentiments I think that that probably released the floodgates of all of his own insecurities and all he could think of was "see??? this is exactly why I didn't know if I should come back, I should have been done after ROTJ, and now I'm another part of 'SW going wrong' just like the prequels, argggh!" But I think in the end he realized that it was a knee jerk response to his fear of being a part of another "PT" and he saw his own over-reaction for what it was after digesting the fully released film and hearing why so many people (critics and fans alike) really *did* like his character arc. It really looks like he had a coming to his senses/what have I done moment. Which is fine, especially since he owned up to it.

Now my impression of Hamill is that he wears his heart on his sleeve and tends to put his mouth before his brain but is still cool enough that if anyone met him at a future convention (and man do I hope to have an opportunity to chat with him about how cool I think his performance/character arc were) that he would probably side with whatever opinion was being thrown at him. I bet fans that come up to him and say "man that movie failed you!" he'd probably say "thanks, yeah it was different than how I pictured the story would go too" while others like me who might say "great performance and what a brave, daring, and ultimately incredibly fulfilling arc you had" I bet he'd go "I know what you mean." Obviously this is all my own assumptions but I just doubt he has a "me vs. them" mindset against either side of fans. He probably sees common ground with both.



Well I just figured that they were going for closure with him literally fading into the sunset to tie in with the suns that began his journey 40 years ago. I did interpret him as initially trying to power through the physical toll that the Force projection took on him before quickly realizing that his time was at an end. So he mustered up one last bit of strength to straighten up and accept his fate. Just my take anyway.

Yeah, I agree with pretty much all of what you've said, but three things to keep in mind:

1. HF didn't say his "type this ****" comment DURING THE RELEASE of the movies (my understanding is he said it during filming to GL, but he didn't publicly share this as an anecdote until long after the OT's run,) and even if he had, it wouldn't have reached 1/10 of the audience that Hamill's tweets and commenst were reaching due to internet/social media. HF's comment was made long after the OT had cemented its place in cinema history - and HF knew that; he's a real "company man" when it comes to promotion.

What Hamill was doing was months BEFORE the release of the movie, and CONTINUED right up through the release, until he abruptly changed direction about a week after release.


2. Hamill is not a working actor. He's in a very unusual situation where as a major actor, he's been MIA since the 1980's, but when it comes to SW, he's suddenly finding himself as a major character in a $200m entry in a global phenomenon (and a seven figure payday - what must be a HUGE deal for him financially, despite his SW points.)

This creates highly unusual situations where, if he plays his cards right, he could get a repeat engagement in IX, and also be big part of the LFL/Disney gravy train (as a part of Disney's SW, not the distant past's SW) for the rest of his life. A SW "ambassador" - a big deal for a guy who, apart from voice-over work and fan stuff, doesnt work much in the entertainment industry.


3. Hamill is a very left-leaning guy. He's with De Niro in what he'd do to Trump. My feeling is that as the backlash (which partly centered on Luke, and was inspired by Hamill''s comments) started to be associated with "alt right" types by the media (the "bots attack" lie about Rotten Tomatoes reviews etc.) - inferring the "haters" were people attacking the film because of "inclusion," gender, racism etc. Hamill got uncomfortable and "switched sides" back to the side that ideologically he was aligned with all along - the left, as by then TLJ had become very polticized; toxicly so.

To continue with what he had been saying would be perceived as siding with the alt right who were the haters driving it all - and I'm sure that was made very clear to him. Again, he didn't change his mind in the lead-up to the release, but a week later... at the same time a deluge of media stories spread the false connection between the backlash and right wingers.

 

[JAWS]

I know that I can't cite the box office success, 90% RT reviewer scores, etc., as "proof" that I'm "right" but I find it hilarious that those who are against the movie actually think that they *can* use those stats to "prove" validity to their own opinions

Agree 100% on both counts.

 

[JAWS]

Everything you say here is obviously fine and valid and represents exactly how you felt about the movie which only you would know. Do I agree with all of your conclusions? Well no because TLJ actually far exceeded my expectations with regard to box office. I figured that since TFA (and RO) made SW "cool" again that there isn't that novelty or epic moment of finally seeing so and so on screen again and that the yearly earnings will ebb and flow like the MCU flicks. Even some of the very best MCU movies (like TWS) did "pretty good" but not Avengers-level profits and nobody freaked out or fell over themselves trying to create a false narrative that conveniently does nothing more than validate their own individual opinions.

I know that I can't cite the box office success, 90% RT reviewer scores, etc., as "proof" that I'm "right" but I find it hilarious that those who are against the movie actually think that they *can* use those stats to "prove" validity to their own opinions. There's no proving anything other than the fact that tons of critics liked it, some audience polls say it was great and some say it was split, while the box office indicates either strong word of mouth (everyone seeing it once and then recommending to others to see it at least once) or many, many people are seeing it multiple times. Those are the facts, the rest is just people saying what they liked and what they didn't.

Just a post I made a while back that touched on some of things.. I am pretty sure its scientific as its my opinion

All of this talk of vocal minority of haters...

I would say that from the people I have talked with (I work in a hospital), this board, you tube, and other message boards.. 50/50 love/hate seems to be pretty fair. Now that is just me and who the hell am I?? But I literally only talked with one person who loved this film. I have talked with a few who thought it was ok or pretty good.. But most have thought it is was bad or worse. But most of the people I talk to are long time Star Wars fans and not the general / casual fan. But like I said.. Who the hell am I? I live in the middle of nowhere and don;t pretend to be a very large sample of SW polling

As for Cinemascore.. Well Its been pointed out plenty that the PT rated very high also. Getting a score from an excited group of fans (especially star wars fans) is not going to be IMO an accurate reading. Hell I would have gave it a decent score right after I saw it (B rating) but my score came down after just thinking about it for a bit (C- rating) Basically from the time it took me to get from the theater to my home it lost a lot from me.

As for the money.. Well I can only post the "adjusted for inflation" numbers so many times to show that this is the third least popular of the series so far.. Beating out AOTC and ROTS. But even being the least popular in the SW saga still makes you very popular.

If I go by Cinemascore / Box office / Rotten tomatoes scores then TFA has to be considered the best Star Wars film out there. We all know that's not true.. Its the second worst

Of course I am not saying that TLJ does not have its fans (as wrong as they might be ). But I don;t believe for a second that the haters are a tiny vocal minority...Maybe its not 50 / 50... But I would say it's not that far off. Hell many of the reviews I have read and watched that liked it still complained about many of the issues that the film had.. Yet they could look past it. Good for them

Ultimately it does not matter.. SW is the OT... Everything else is fan fiction with the exception of RO

 

[EVILFACE]

I don't think they're into threesomes, Rose.

Three reasons for failure in China.

 

[MaulFan]

Three reasons for failure.

Fixed. I get box office numbers do not equate this as a failure of a movie, but I just find these character to be bland or too much of a copy of character that came before them. I look at Poe and all I see is Han 2.0, Finn is boring as hell and everything Rose brought to the story felt forced and unnatural, like falling for Finn when nothing really seemed to happen to make someone fall in love with another person.

 

[Asta]

...and everything Rose brought to the story felt forced and unnatural, like falling for Finn when nothing really seemed to happen to make someone fall in love with another person.

 

[DarthBakura]

I don’t think any of the new characters fall solely into one specific trope that came before them.

Poe has shared traits with both Luke and Han. And Finn is an odd mishmash of C-3PO and Han. Rey is... well, Rey. She’s got a hint of Leia, but has more in common with Luke.

Actually, I take that back. Kylo does channel mostly a younger Anakin.

 

[Khev]

Of course I am not saying that TLJ does not have its fans (as wrong as they might be ). But I don;t believe for a second that the haters are a tiny vocal minority...Maybe its not 50 / 50... But I would say it's not that far off.

Well it looks like it has a "85" Metacritic rating out of over 5,000 reviews and an average score of 7.5/10 out of almost 300,000 Imdb votes. So again, taking the RT audience anomaly out of the equation it looks like the naysayers have far from a 50% share of the voices weighing in.

 

[loki2371]

Well it looks like it has a "85" Metacritic rating out of over 5,000 reviews and an average score of 7.5/10 out of almost 300,000 Imdb votes. So again, taking the RT audience anomaly out of the equation it looks like the naysayers have far from a 50% share of the voices weighing in.

We're back on review scores again??

Metacritic's rating of 85 is based on only 5,000 reviews, not a very good sample size for a movie viewed by people in the millions, and only based on diehard fans initial reaction as they left the theater during showings on the preview night. A very poorly chosen demographic.

IMDB's 7.5/10 from 300k users is better, but a 7.5 translates to a 75% which is the equivalent of a letter grade value of a "C". Not all too promising there.

Rotten Tomatoes currently has a 91% (back up from 90%) rating from 356 Critics who need to stay on Disney's good side for their careers to prosper. Again very biased results there...
Rotten Tomatoes Currently has a 49% rating from 176,834 fans... which means 51% who reviewed it didn't find it "fresh".

Has any other movie been this up and down between critics and fans from various outlets? Clearly there is a disconnect here. Whether you liked it or not, you can't ignore the facts. "SW is dead, Long Live SW"....

 

[JAWS]

Well it looks like it has a "85" Metacritic rating out of over 5,000 reviews and an average score of 7.5/10 out of almost 300,000 Imdb votes. So again, taking the RT audience anomaly out of the equation it looks like the naysayers have far from a 50% share of the voices weighing in.

Well perhaps that is the case.. I know in my personal life that I have a hard time finding anyone who really likes the film. The complaints are not the "they ruined luke" complaints either.

 

[loki2371]

Well perhaps that is the case.. I know in my personal life that I have a hard time finding anyone who really likes the film. The complaints are not the "they ruined luke" complaints either.

Yeah, I only know 1 of 12 real SW fans I or my wife have talked to that genuinely liked the movie (and she's flaky to begin with). It seemed like no one wanted to give their opinion 1st as they were conflicted as how to respond to how they felt about the movie. Everyone is either confused or disappointed. No real hate, but feelings of missed opportunities and let downs for another great story.

 

[Khev]

Well perhaps that is the case.. I know in my personal life that I have a hard time finding anyone who really likes the film. The complaints are not the "they ruined luke" complaints either.

Well I'm not disputing your anecdotal experience and obviously we can all state how much our own friends/families/coworkers all echo our own opinions but at the end of the day it's still a critically acclaimed and highly profitable film and there's just no reason to dispute that. Pointing out one country that hated it and one site (that is opt-in no less) with reviews lower than all the others to "prove" a narrative of disaster or to use those two individual anomalies as proof that everyone else is out of touch with reality or that "this is why Trump won" is pretty laughable and that's putting it lightly.

I've said it before but I really think that TLJ is the SW version of IM3. There's no denying that it's divisive, or that many fans were even outraged, but whether someone loved or hated it seems to mostly come down to how any given person wanted the story to go rather than just weighing in on how well they told the story that *they* wanted to tell. Because if the Mandarin was always supposed to be this wacky impostor then IM3 captured that magnificently, if Luke was "supposed" to drink green milk from a sea cow then again, the execution of TLJ was fantastic. And that seems to be the sticking point for most people who hate it; the fact that it didn't follow their head canon the way they deemed it was "supposed to."

Now I'm no slave to execution at the expense of all other elements. For instance I do find TDKR annoying that they had Bruce just leave Gotham to fend for itself at the end. I think that that makes his character weaker, the film less satisfying, and even hurts the entire trilogy. So I can understand people feeling that Luke is portrayed in a way that turns them off to this whole trilogy and that's certainly an interesting topic of discussion. But I don't consider TDKR to be a "bad" film even if it didn't take the character to the place I wanted him to be. I also don't consider the first Avengers flick to be "bad" even though I pretty much write the whole thing off on account of how stupid Cap looks and acts in the film. That's just my irrational inner fan overruling the film critic in me which I think is what is happening with many SW fans in the case of TLJ.

 

[DarthBakura]

I didn’t dislike Iron Man 3, but it’s certainly not one of the films I turn to when I want some Iron Man action. Same with Thor: Dark World. I can, however, easily pop in any flick that has featured Batman since 1989, barring the atrocious Schumacher films.

The Nolan trilogy is all around enjoyable for me. Although, the Burton Bats will always be king, I think.

 

[ZaCHw117]

Iron Man 3 > Civil War

come at me.

 

[Chakor]

Iron Man 3 > Civil War

 

[EVILFACE]

Iron Man 3 > Civil War

come at me.

I like how Tony left the kids shack all decked out with cutting edge tools and such.

I don't remember much else.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Tony wore a cowboy outfit.

Also, there was a hot (literally) girl with a scar who used fire.

And Trevor was funny.