Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[DiFabio]

Complaining about the natural progression of force powers . . .

The Force is constantly evolving in the medium.

Kylo Ren stopping what is essentially a bullet is a natural progression from what was seen in other movies. Nothing too outlandish, a cool moment.

Projecting a realistic image of yourself across the galaxy that has better quality than a hologram and can not only be seen and physically interact with humans but droids as well is ridiculous. Whatever happened to the force having a strong influence on the weak-minded? So Leia and Kylo couldn't see through Luke's smoke and mirrors, they must be ****ing idiots? The fact that he died when he isn't even there makes it even worse. It does three things, 1. it takes the dramatic tension away from his return in service of a shameless twist 2. makes you question the force and Jedi as a whole 3. makes writers want to "one-up" the powers for the next story.


After surviving and flying in space and astral projection, what's next? Force users can turn invisible? Turn back time? Maybe invulnerability? I mean, it's the force right? How can a force sensitive being really even die? Rey is the perfect candidate to showcase these awesome abilities.

Sometimes less is more. The **** that went down with Luke and Leia in TLJ is the type of big, loud, absurd and unfathomable moments that you see in Transformers, Fast and the Furious and the like. You push the force too far and it just becomes dramatic slapstick.

There is something magical and fairy tale like with Obi-Wan getting cut down, the robe dropping to the floor and Vader doing that little cautious foot probing thing like "how the **** did he do that". The whole voice in your head thing is subtle too. Yoda lifting out the X-Wing with his triumphant theme ramping up and proving a point to Luke and the audience? It's what these films are made out of.

But you can push the powers aspect too far, and they are. The skype force calls, Leia in space, and fake out Luke just reeks of the desperate shock value, creatively bankrupt stunts you'd throw into the 9th movie of an exhausted franchise.

 

[YoNoSe]

gonna order Chinese tonight for them saying F U to Disney Kennedy Star Wars

I know it's Saturday but try to be safe, okay?

 

[YoNoSe]

I can't believe "force projection" is actually a thing now. It's just so ridiculous. It boggles my mind that Star Wars fans actually defend it.

Srsly. It's like those guys that defend the EU because they feel it's so much better than this sequel garbage.

What would they say if the idea of force projection had been established in the EU in 2011?

 

[DiFabio]

Srsly. It's like those guys that defend the EU because they feel it's so much better than this sequel garbage.

What would they say if the idea of force projection had been established in the EU in 2011?

I don't know what they'd say, I never followed the novels or comic books or anything the Expanded Universe stuff had to offer. Couldn't get into it. I'm illiterate you know.

I do know that some stories had bizzare things like a clone of Luke named Luke that was created from the DNA contained in Luke's chopped off hand, so astral projection or something like it existing before TLJ would not surprise me. I'm sure they'd defend it with the same white hot intensity TLJ lovers are and like Prequel lovers do with theirs. All cut from the same cloth as far as I'm concerned, though the EU and video game dudes are a lot more quiet and tolerable.

 

[Spazz]

Leia in space was a head scratcher. Nothing else in TLJ was. The "new" powers were all extensions of what we saw in ESB. Vader in the Dagobah cave was a Force projection (that was tangible no less!) Luke Force linked with both Leia and Vader. ESB also established that certain powers beyond a Jedi's abilities could take a physical toll on the Force user (Luke was weak and out of breath after trying to lift the X-Wing, Yoda was not.) Ranting about break dancing and firebreathing just makes you look silly

First of all, Vader wasn't force projecting in the Degobah cave. That was an illusion. It was Luke's fear and hatred manifesting itself.

Second, my fire breathing and break dancing analogy makes you look silly. It's hyperbole, which is kind of my point: exaggeration becomes absurd, at some point. Likewise, you can't perpetually stack new Jedi powers without creating absurd situations, even if you're less hokey than Marry Poppins Leia, or Luke dying over his fruitless Jedi prank. If a Jedi can summon new powers at any time, there's no dramatic tension because you can always assume the protagonist will be saved by some undisclosed ability.

"Oh no! Rey's being launched into the sun! But don't worry. I'm sure she'll look deep inside herself, and (without instruction) realize her ability to survive extreme temperatures! Go Force Power!"

 

[DiFabio]

First of all, Vader wasn't force projecting in the Degobah cave. That was an illusion. It was Luke's fear and hatred manifesting itself.

"What's in there?"
"Only what you take with you."

Luke proceeds to holster his gun, lightsaber and utility belt.

"Your weapons, you will not need them."

Luke disses Yoda, bring his weapons anyway and enters the cave with his anger, fear, and hatred. The manifestation of all this of course arrives into the form of Darth Vader, who is a manifestation of all of Luke's problems as well as the figure that killed his father and mentor. When he decapitates Vader, he sees himself. It's dream like (or a nightmare) and shot in slow motion, showing all of Luke's conflict.


Comparing this to TLJ which goes big with the Force powers but says absolutely nothing is a crime. There's nothing even particularly thought provoking about Luke's projection, the way it's shot or his death. It's just absurd.

 

[DarthBakura]

Of course! I mean in ESB when Yoda said "for my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is" he clearly meant that it was awesome to have an ally that could do nothing but control weak minds and lift stuff. Those two powers alone are definitely worthy of spawning a religion that lasted over a thousand generations.

When Yoda said that line about the Force, I think he was talking less about its “power” and more about the entirety of its very existence. Like a ship captain expressing profound reverence for the ocean, perhaps? Yoda doesn’t strike me as one to gloat in that moment.

Maybe you're right. In Episode 9, maybe we'll learn that the force can also allow people to travel through time, create matter from thin air, breath fire, break dance, or turn into Wookies. We'll learn that Chewy was once a Jedi who turned into a Wookie. There are no limits to how awesome everyone can be, no need for explanation, and if these changes are perceived as moronic to over half the viewing public, Disney shareholders won't perceive that as failure, and neither should we. After all, why wouldn't people who watch a movie for nostalgia embrace incoherent change and a frivolous portrayal of IP?

If you’re watching a movie released in 2017 for the sole purpose of “nostalgia”... you’re doing it wrong. Still, I suppose Blade Runner did an impressive job of it. Dunno if I’ll actually watch it again. Maybe. I have rewatched Rogue One quite a bit.

Leia in space was a head scratcher. Nothing else in TLJ was. The "new" powers were all extensions of what we saw in ESB. Vader in the Dagobah cave was a Force projection (that was tangible no less!) Luke Force linked with both Leia and Vader. ESB also established that certain powers beyond a Jedi's abilities could take a physical toll on the Force user (Luke was weak and out of breath after trying to lift the X-Wing, Yoda was not.) Ranting about break dancing and firebreathing just makes you look silly

The cave scene was a dark side manifestation of Luke’s fear though. I mean, Dagobah is a harsh planet and that cave had quite the nasty dark side presence.

The Force link we’ve seen before is nothing close to what Snoke conveys. They can peer into the world and see them like they were standing right next to them. It’s a far cry from the telepathy in previous films. And a lot of that is merely Force Sense.

Kylo Ren stopping what is essentially a bullet is a natural progression from what was seen in other movies. Nothing too outlandish, a cool moment.

Projecting a realistic image of yourself across the galaxy that has better quality than a hologram and can not only be seen and physically interact with humans but droids as well is ridiculous. Whatever happened to the force having a strong influence on the weak-minded? So Leia and Kylo couldn't see through Luke's smoke and mirrors, they must be ****ing idiots? The fact that he died when he isn't even there makes it even worse. It does three things, 1. it takes the dramatic tension away from his return in service of a shameless twist 2. makes you question the force and Jedi as a whole 3. makes writers want to "one-up" the powers for the next story.


After surviving and flying in space and astral projection, what's next? Force users can turn invisible? Turn back time? Maybe invulnerability? I mean, it's the force right? How can a force sensitive being really even die? Rey is the perfect candidate to showcase these awesome abilities.

Sometimes less is more. The **** that went down with Luke and Leia in TLJ is the type of big, loud, absurd and unfathomable moments that you see in Transformers, Fast and the Furious and the like. You push the force too far and it just becomes dramatic slapstick.

There is something magical and fairy tale like with Obi-Wan getting cut down, the robe dropping to the floor and Vader doing that little cautious foot probing thing like "how the **** did he do that". The whole voice in your head thing is subtle too. Yoda lifting out the X-Wing with his triumphant theme ramping up and proving a point to Luke and the audience? It's what these films are made out of.

But you can push the powers aspect too far, and they are. The skype force calls, Leia in space, and fake out Luke just reeks of the desperate shock value, creatively bankrupt stunts you'd throw into the 9th movie of an exhausted franchise.

It’s been suggested that Leia actually saw through the projection/doppelgänger and realized he wasn’t actually there. I dunno. I’ve only seen the film once. Expecting Kylo Ren to see through that is asking a bit much though. He’s so blinded by his emotions at that point in the film, he overlooked every single tell.


You guys really need to get the Book of the Sith and the Jedi Path. They’re likely going to be the handbooks for future force powers in the films, going forward. There’s a really nasty Jedi power mentioned that was apparently abolished. Would be kinda neat to see one day.

Oh and an FYI... Luke apparently ripped Star Destroyers out of the sky before he went hermit. Yes, just like from a game. I’m calling bs though. A smaller ship I could see. Which then spread throughout the galaxy as elaborate tales again and again until it became overly fantastical.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I don't see the point of force projection as an ability if it kills you. Was it the distance that killed him? Can he use that in battle in short distances without it being a problem, is that the point? Are we going to see Rey using projection like Arnold using the holograms as a distraction in Total Recall? This stuff reminds me too much of Dr. Strange, but at least the movie shows his training and that he still had a lot to learn.

 

[Lakhota]

This movie is so bad 80% of it is forgotten and people are talking about the same 3 scenes over and over. A movie that was over 2 hours30 min long and people can only talk about a minority of the films proves how terrible it was. This movie accomplished nothing , both Rey and Kylo arte in the same positions TLJ started out in and the Rebels and First Order also. What did this movie accomplish? Killing Luke, Snoke, adding a **** ton of new Force abilities, and showing us that Rey is still a May Sure. Anything interesting in the movie they destroyed, why not have Rey and Kylo team up? Too much time taken up on feminism ******** agendas and adding in fat Shortround from Indiana Jones.

 

[Khev]

First of all, Vader wasn't force projecting in the Degobah cave. That was an illusion. It was Luke's fear and hatred manifesting itself.

Do you even know what an illusion is? Google the word. You'll find that it's definition literally applies to both Vader on Dagobah and Luke on Crait. Vader was a "manifested" personification of what was inside Luke? Very good. Master Luke came a long way from his Dagobah days. As a master he clearly learned to take control of such manifestations. "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially, but it also obeys your commands." Not out of line at all with OT teachings. The OT established that what the Force can do, a Jedi can potentially control. We saw the Force create an apparition out of thin air and Luke learned how to harness and control that very ability. The source of one of his greatest failures became the catalyst for one of his greatest victories. Hell you could even see the dead Hamill face in the Vader mask as foreshadowing his own death decades later. Force projection Luke in Vader suit = dead. Force projection Master Luke = dead. The narrative actually provides on screen evidence that Luke either didn't heed the warning way back in the cave or he deliberately embraced it as being his destiny. We know the short term foreshadowing as written by Lucas and Kasdan was to point to his showdown with Vader in Cloud City but its pretty brilliant that Johnson (either deliberately or accidentally) created an overlapping super-narrative that suggested even more.

Second, my fire breathing and break dancing analogy makes you look silly. It's hyperbole,

Indeed it was. And misapplied hyperbole is very, very silly.

 

[Spazz]

If you’re watching a movie released in 2017 for the sole purpose of “nostalgia”... you’re doing it wrong. Still, I suppose Blade Runner did an impressive job of it. Dunno if I’ll actually watch it again. Maybe. I have rewatched Rogue One quite a bit.

No one watches a movie solely for nostalgia. If we did, there wouldn't have been so many complaints about The Force Awakens rehashing too much of A New Hope. However, you know as well as I do that the Star Wars franchise was worth billions specifically because the iconography appeals to nostalgia. All of the trailers appeal to nostalgia. Then, the film disregards the character of the main protagonist of the franchise entirely. The result is a failure to appeal to over half of Disney's demographic.

Comparing this to TLJ which goes big with the Force powers but says absolutely nothing is a crime. There's nothing even particularly thought provoking about Luke's projection, the way it's shot or his death. It's just absurd.

Exactly. There are so many unintentionally absurd elements to the film, that it's infuriating. Meanwhile, the film tries to use comedic absurdity in a way that's entirely ineffective. It's just a horrible movie, that's almost "meta" in its incompetence.

 

[Spazz]

Do you even know what an illusion is? Google the word. You'll find that it's definition literally applies to both Vader on Dagobah and Luke on Crait. Vader was a "manifested" personification of what was inside Luke? Very good. Master Luke came a long way from his Dagobah days. As a master he clearly learned to take control of such manifestations. "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially, but it also obeys your commands." Not out of line at all with OT teachings. The OT established that what the Force can do, a Jedi can potentially control, we saw the Force create an apparition out of thin air and Luke learned how to harness and control that very ability. The source of one of his greatest failures became the catalyst for one of his greatest victories. Hell you could even see the dead Hamill face in the Vader mask as foreshadowing his own death decades later. Force projection Luke in Vader suit = dead. Force projection Master Luke = dead. The narrative actually provides on screen evidence that Luke either didn't heed the warning way back in the cave or he deliberately embraced it as being his destiny. We know the short term foreshadowing as written by Lucas and Kasdan was to point to his showdown with Vader in Cloud City but its pretty brilliant that Johnson (either deliberately or accidentally) created an overlapping super-narrative that suggested even more.

Now you're just talking nonsense. Admit it: You misinterpreted Empire. Vader didn't Force project into the cave; it was the dark side of the force, causing Luke to hallucinate.

 

[YoNoSe]

I don't know what they'd say, I never followed the novels or comic books or anything the Expanded Universe stuff had to offer. Couldn't get into it. I'm illiterate you know.

I do know that some stories had bizzare things like a clone of Luke named Luke that was created from the DNA contained in Luke's chopped off hand, so astral projection or something like it existing before TLJ would not surprise me. I'm sure they'd defend it with the same white hot intensity TLJ lovers are and like Prequel lovers do with theirs. All cut from the same cloth as far as I'm concerned, though the EU and video game dudes are a lot more quiet and tolerable.

Personally I thought most of the EU that I sampled was weak. The only stuff I remember liking a lot were the Tales Of anthologies.

I guess my "trigger" is people who get high and mighty when it's clear they don't have the facts. I was just getting dissed by the Original Gangsta SKywalker because he/she didn't pay attention to the exposition in the movie. I've responded to at least two consistent "haters" who have declared that there is no basis for Rey being able to fly a ship in TFA when she says outright that she has flown ships before. Nobody responds to those comments.

Also, I agree - setting up a device doesn't add quality. But that wasn't the argument I was engaging in. You can love or hate Force projection. But they were certainly building it up as an expansion of the mind-connection from ESB.

As for fandom - I think which saide you view as the aggressor depends on where you sit. I've seen people saying those who like TLJ are attacking those who don't but my own experience feels quite the opposite.

And video game fans??? I gave up on Metal Gear threads because I couldn't go three posts without reading how Kojima ruined everything after the second game.

But I know your M/O is negative deconstruction and you're good at it.

I still think you doth protest too much, though. Even if that is indicative of my lack of personality.

I guess when it comes to fandom I can relate more to people who devote their time and energy to things they like. Outside of that it doesn't feel like fandom to me.
I don't know what it is but it sure is something nowadays.

 

[Khev]

I don't see the point of force projection as an ability if it kills you. Was it the distance that killed him?

That was the implication. Luke "Force linked" with Leia to call for help at the end of ESB and then again with Vader as he lay in bed on the Falcon. Obviously such relatively close telepathic conversations were not dangerous but Kylo said that doing so across the galaxy certainly was.

 

[DarthBakura]

I don't see the point of force projection as an ability if it kills you. Was it the distance that killed him? Can he use that in battle in short distances without it being a problem, is that the point? Are we going to see Rey using projection like Arnold using the holograms as a distraction in Total Recall? This stuff reminds me too much of Dr. Strange, but at least the movie shows his training and that he still had a lot to learn.

Distance is most likely the main factor in whether you can tolerate its use, yes. Luke cut himself off from the Force, but he had obviously become quite powerful over the long years. I doubt using a projection on Ahch-To would have done more than tire him out a bit.

I honestly don’t see them using the ability again. Rey is far less likely to even learn such a skill. Kylo and Rey are crude with their gifts. They represent more raw and untamed power. Unless something changes between the events of the next film, I highly doubt either of them will be using master tier abilities. They’ll get stronger with base skills and will put on a flashier show. And it could just be J.J. wanting to dial down the display of force powers after The Last Jedi, but I’ll take logical reasoning over damage control.

 

[Khev]

Now you're just talking nonsense. Admit it: You misinterpreted Empire. Vader didn't Force project into the cave; it was the dark side of the force, causing Luke to hallucinate.

I never said that the real Vader himself instigated the projection, I merely stated that it was *a* projection. Something that the Force can clearly do which Luke learned to later control. But now I see that your comprehension of my posts is as bad as your ability to understand what was shown on screen so it's probably best that we end the discussion with that.

 

[Spazz]

That was the implication. Luke "Force linked" with Leia to call for help at the end of ESB and then again with Vader when as he lay in bed. Obviously such relatively close telepathic conversations were not dangerous but Kylo said that doing so across the galaxy certainly was.

And this leads to the ultimate absurdity:

Kylo: I'm going to kill you!
Luke: Nuh-uh! I'm going to kill myself! I'm a hologram! Surprise! I totally tricked you!



Worst. Film. Ever.

 

[YoNoSe]

Kylo: I'm finally going to show what a badass I am.
Luke: Nah, you're going to waste a bunch of time posing while my friends escape. See you around, kid.

 

[Spazz]

Kylo: I'm finally going to show what a badass I am.
Luke: Nah, you're going to waste a bunch of time posing while my friends escape. See you around, kid.

Kylo: I don't care if the Rebels escape. I want Luke dead. Aim all of your guns at that man.
Luke: Surprise! The rebels escaped, and now I'm dead! Oh, wait...

 

[Khev]

Kylo: I'm finally going to show what a badass I am.
Luke: Nah, you're going to waste a bunch of time posing while my friends escape. See you around, kid.

How insanely demoralizing it must have been for the FO to actually unleash their most powerful weapons against the Resistance and yet accomplish absolutely nothing.