Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[xipotec]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Khev again.


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[Bravomite]

I just drove down the freeway and passed some cows in a field that clearly had no interest in TLJ. I guess the haters were right.

Hahaha ... but just so you know us 'Haters' aren't really haters, our problem is that we care way too much about Star Wars. We enjoy the lore, like the characters that we have grown up with and just want to see good Star Wars movies that don't retroactively take a cow pat on the previous movies. So I guess you could say we are... the 'Lovers' ... no wait that came out wrong... um my point is that um yeh those cows in a field have good sense is all.... so there [phew really showed Khev how wrong he was]

Outside of the films Hamill is just another fanboy like us who wants his favorite characters (especially the one he's associated with the most) to be "awesome." He said that he complained to Johnson that "Jedi don't give up." BS. Jedi can clearly fail in any conceivable way, up to and including forsaking their own Order and murdering their own kind. And you don't even need the prequels for that fact, it was all spelled out in ANH.

Plus this isn't just any Jedi it's Luke we're talking about. He's always been a chronic moper even after he became the savior of the Rebellion. I respect Hamill's work but his opinions about how his character should behave or where the Saga should go are no more valid than any of ours, especially when his preferences go against the established backstory of the films themselves.

I totally get where you are coming from and can understand why you enjoyed the movie. You went into TLJ with an open mind and were happy to sit back and watch little Rian play with his Luke Skywalker action figure in the Star Wars sand pit.

BUT...[sorry I didn't mean to shout], this is where the problem lies for most of the 'Haters' dammit I mean 'Lovers' ... I mean, aw forget it. Luke is a character that we have seen grow and evolve through three movies. Many of us read the EU books, comics, played the games or even had our own adventures with kenner Luke. I'm sure a lot of us spent hours chatting with friends, speculating how episodes 7,8 and 9 might turn out. Therein lies the first problem, for a lot of us long time fans it's hard to do a 'Khev' (sorry I didn't mean to make that a thing lol) and leave our own personal baggage at the door when we see these movies. We all have expectations of how we want to see the character served and with Luke Skywalker it's even more prominent than all the others including Han Solo. I believe the reason for this might be because for many of the older male fans, Luke is 'us' in the Star Wars universe.

Now I'm sure we all wanted to be Han because he gets the girl, has a cool ship, his hairy dog is his sidekick, he kicks back in cantinas, dabbles on the wrong side of the law (but not too much), is sarcastic, has a great dress sense (haha), shoots first, is mysterious and is an all round cool guy.

BUT...[sorry keep shouting] we may have wanted to be Han but we weren't, we were Luke. Han was confident, had already been off adventuring and knew how to chat up the ladies. As kids, most of us were on a moisture farm looking out at the twin suns, full of hope and optimism, a bit awkward but couldn't wait to go off on our own adventures.



We watched Luke get swept up in the greatest adventure of all and we went with him. We saw him grow from a wide-eyed kid into a Jedi Master. He made life long friends who he never gave up on and who never gave up on him. He repeatedly got knocked down and things didn't always come easy to him. But Luke worked hard, never gave up and always looked for the good in people (even when they didn't deserve it). He learned from his failures, earned his victories and by the end of the OT he was a strong, confident young man. He appeared to be at peace with himself and he was content with his place in the universe. He was who we wanted to be once we had grown up. [Man the OT had some good life lessons and role models I wonder if those are in the ST ]



So here is the catch... for many older fans, 'we' were Luke Skywalker or he represented our hopes and dreams as kids. TLJ takes Luke and says but yeh that guy ended up as the biggest failure of all. He gave up on everyone, his friends, his nephew, his students and himself. He wanted to die but couldn't even do that right so now he is milk slurping hermit weirdo.

This just seems so far out of character, not only to the Luke of the OT but also to the Luke of the EU and the Luke of our imaginations. It is also deliberately the opposite of what fans wanted for Luke... why do that? As it is a conscious decision to treat Luke in this way, on some level TLJ is actually insulting. Not only because it disregards our role model as a complete loser but as Luke represents 'us' it implies that LFL thinks that 'we' (it's older loyal fan base) are also hermit milk slurping losers too (we probably are to some extent haha but we don't want Star Wars to tell us that) and that we should just force evaporate away.

I made some assumptions here when I spoke for the other haters but this is how it is for me (I suspect it might ring true for other people too). Even though I like the force projection scene (it's a really neat Luke thing to do), I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to accept that this Luke is the same character as the one I have known for most of my life (I saw Star Wars young!). TLJ looked pretty and sounded good (fun with Rose and Finn is the worst part of any Star Wars score ever) but it got a lot wrong. Whilst I can forgive most things (I like the prequels A LOT) I apparently draw the line at LFL taking a cow pat on Luke Skywalker.

So I bid you good day sir [slurps green milk, wipes excess from beard whilst pulling face at Khev and stomps off out of the thread].



[I can't leave this thread really it's too fun, now I'm force ghost Bravomite - hanging around zapping things with lightening]

 

[loki2371]

Hahaha ... but just so you know us 'Haters' aren't really haters, our problem is that we care way too much about Star Wars. We enjoy the lore, like the characters that we have grown up with and just want to see good Star Wars movies that don't retroactively take a cow pat on the previous movies. So I guess you could say we are... the 'Lovers' ... no wait that came out wrong... um my point is that um yeh those cows in a field have good sense is all.... so there [phew really showed Khev how wrong he was]



I totally get where you are coming from and can understand why you enjoyed the movie. You went into TLJ with an open mind and were happy to sit back and watch little Rian play with his Luke Skywalker action figure in the Star Wars sand pit.

BUT...[sorry I didn't mean to shout], this is where the problem lies for most of the 'Haters' dammit I mean 'Lovers' ... I mean, aw forget it. Luke is a character that we have seen grow and evolve through three movies. Many of us read the EU books, comics, played the games or even had our own adventures with kenner Luke. I'm sure a lot of us spent hours chatting with friends, speculating how episodes 7,8 and 9 might turn out. Therein lies the first problem, for a lot of us long time fans it's hard to do a 'Khev' (sorry I didn't mean to make that a thing lol) and leave our own personal baggage at the door when we see these movies. We all have expectations of how we want to see the character served and with Luke Skywalker it's even more prominent than all the others including Han Solo. I believe the reason for this might be because for many of the older male fans, Luke is 'us' in the Star Wars universe.

Now I'm sure we all wanted to be Han because he gets the girl, has a cool ship, his hairy dog is his sidekick, he kicks back in cantinas, dabbles on the wrong side of the law (but not too much), is sarcastic, has a great dress sense (haha), shoots first, is mysterious and is an all round cool guy.

BUT...[sorry keep shouting] we may have wanted to be Han but we weren't, we were Luke. Han was confident, had already been off adventuring and knew how to chat up the ladies. As kids, most of us were on a moisture farm looking out at the twin suns, full of hope and optimism, a bit awkward but couldn't wait to go off on our own adventures.

View attachment 389420

We watched Luke get swept up in the greatest adventure of all and we went with him. We saw him grow from a wide-eyed kid into a Jedi Master. He made life long friends who he never gave up on and who never gave up on him. He repeatedly got knocked down and things didn't always come easy to him. But Luke worked hard, never gave up and always looked for the good in people (even when they didn't deserve it). He learned from his failures, earned his victories and by the end of the OT he was a strong, confident young man. He appeared to be at peace with himself and he was content with his place in the universe. He was who we wanted to be once we had grown up. [Man the OT had some good life lessons and role models I wonder if those are in the ST ]

View attachment 389421

So here is the catch... for many older fans, 'we' were Luke Skywalker or he represented our hopes and dreams as kids. TLJ takes Luke and says but yeh that guy ended up as the biggest failure of all. He gave up on everyone, his friends, his nephew, his students and himself. He wanted to die but couldn't even do that right so now he is milk slurping hermit weirdo.

This just seems so far out of character, not only to the Luke of the OT but also to the Luke of the EU and the Luke of our imaginations. It is also deliberately the opposite of what fans wanted for Luke... why do that? As it is a conscious decision to treat Luke in this way, on some level TLJ is actually insulting. Not only because it disregards our role model as a complete loser but as Luke represents 'us' it implies that LFL thinks that 'we' (it's older loyal fan base) are also hermit milk slurping losers too (we probably are to some extent haha but we don't want Star Wars to tell us that) and that we should just force evaporate away.

I made some assumptions here when I spoke for the other haters but this is how it is for me (I suspect it might ring true for other people too). Even though I like the force projection scene (it's a really neat Luke thing to do), I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to accept that this Luke is the same character as the one I have known for most of my life (I saw Star Wars young!). TLJ looked pretty and sounded good (fun with Rose and Finn is the worst part of any Star Wars score ever) but it got a lot wrong. Whilst I can forgive most things (I like the prequels A LOT) I apparently draw the line at LFL taking a cow pat on Luke Skywalker.

So I bid you good day sir [slurps green milk, wipes excess from beard whilst pulling face at Khev and stomps off out of the thread].

View attachment 389436

[I can't leave this thread really it's too fun, now I'm force ghost Bravomite - hanging around zapping things with lightening]

....

 

[Wor-Gar]

So here is the catch... for many older fans, 'we' were Luke Skywalker or he represented our hopes and dreams as kids. TLJ takes Luke and says but yeh that guy ended up as the biggest failure of all. He gave up on everyone, his friends, his nephew, his students and himself. He wanted to die but couldn't even do that right so now he is milk slurping hermit weirdo.

Nolan's sad truth again rears it head: you either die a hero... or live long enough to become the villain.


Lucas has basically ended up much like Luke in TLJ. He became the thing he never wanted to be.

 

[xipotec]

Hahaha ...

I totally get where you are coming from and can understand why you enjoyed the movie. You went into TLJ with an open mind and were happy to sit back and watch little Rian play with his Luke Skywalker action figure in the Star Wars sand pit.

Therein lies the first problem, for a lot of us long time fans it's hard to do a 'Khev' (sorry I didn't mean to make that a thing lol) and leave our own personal baggage at the door when we see these movies. We all have expectations of how we want to see the character served and with Luke Skywalker it's even more prominent than all the others including Han Solo. I believe the reason for this might be because for many of the older male fans, Luke is 'us' in the Star Wars universe.

This is one of the most insightful statements into where the “hate” for the films comes from.

Pre conceived notions.

I am a little confused how it is hard for people of a certain age to not get how someone like Luke ends up like he is....

Most people on this forum avoid contact with other humans and they are not even the famous Luke Skywalker.....

At my age, having seen what I have seen in my 45 years, I can totally understand his position. It’s just I have to be that “goto” guy often. I have been in that position most of my life....and honestly, I totally sympathize with Luke for that reason. The pressure of being in charge and the rescue or fix something or someone your whole life can be overwhelming and turn you into a hermit.

And in my case , I didn’t save the universe or anything...

I think the position that he would still be. Stout , uncompromising hero is much more unrealistic from what we know of the trials and horrors he has witnessed in his life...but in a space opera , people wanted that guy, not the realistic beat down , tired of it all hermit we got.

Good post thou.



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[TaliBane]

Lets set the record straight here.

I love Mark Hamill....met him talked with him for hours, super nice and personable.

But his take on the character he plays is his take, not mine.

Outside of the films Hamill is just another fanboy like us who wants his favorite characters (especially the one he's associated with the most) to be "awesome."

This is a guy who was there at the very start. Before the start. He was discussing and shaping Luke long BEFORE 1977. He worked with GL going for the first time into that galaxy far, far away. His persona influenced Luke's persona. His acting abilities (or lack thereof at times) is part of who Luke is. He even did stuff like attending SDCC in 1976, engaging people with Luke's journey and SW.

He may not have made it as an actor in his own right, but to try to say that he's just another fanboy like you guys - and his opinion his similar weight to yours - is utter ****.

If Hamill had died years ago and another superfan actor was playing him in TLJ and had issues with the direction Johnson took, then I'd agree with you. But what you're arguing is like HF knows nothing about Indy, and what he'd have to say about the character is equivalent to what you have to say.

Man I love that scene...for what it says about Rey’s disillusionment , Luke’s disgust with what people expect from him, and for what it did to so many fans....

It’s perfect....

Oh wait, you say I have zero standard...I retract my statement....


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It's a great moment. You can even see that Luke is clearly playing it up on purpose to deliberately turn Rey off to seeking further assistance from him and is quite amused with himself as a result. Plus you've got the Sea Cow staring down Rey going "you got a problem" causing her to uncomfortably look away. So many great layers to that scene including real world metaphors. Luke obviously represents the fans of the movie, Rey is the haters, Johnson is the Sea Cow going "that's right, this is happening, deal with it" and the teets giving milk is the license itself, lol.

To paraphrase the slogan from the 1992 election... IT'S THE NIPPLE, STUPID.

Rey’s disillusionment , Luke’s disgust, Luke playing it up - WHATEVER. It is the weirdo shot of our hero directly interacting with dribbly, lactating human-like breasts/nipples (as opposed to a more cow-like udder) that makes the scene super weird.

If it had been presented and shot differently, perhaps even if you showed an alien seacow udder, it could have delivered what you guys are saying. But as presented, it is WEIRD and if you can't see that, it's on you.

Therein lies the first problem, for a lot of us long time fans it's hard to do a 'Khev' (sorry I didn't mean to make that a thing lol) and leave our own personal baggage at the door when we see these movies.

It's official - to "do a Khev" is a thing.

 

[xipotec]

Lol , it is weird....

Which is why I like it so much.....

So it’s on me....



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[loki2371]

This is a guy who was there at the very start. Before the start. He was discussing and shaping Luke long BEFORE 1977. He worked with GL going for the first time into that galaxy far, far away. His persona influenced Luke's persona. His acting abilities (or lack thereof at times) is part of who Luke is. He even did stuff like attending SDCC in 1976, engaging people with Luke's journey and SW.

He may not have made it as an actor in his own right, but to try to say that he's just another fanboy like you guys - and his opinion his similar weight to yours - is utter ****.

If Hamill had died years ago and another superfan actor was playing him in TLJ and had issues with the direction Johnson took, then I'd agree with you. But what you're arguing is like HF knows nothing about Indy, and what he'd have to say about the character is equivalent to what you have to say.
l

I don't think Johnson or Kennedy would've had the balls to treat Harrison Ford the way they did Hamill. If Han lived and Ford disagreed with Han's character, you damn well better believe they would've listened to him. But Hamill has no Hollywood weight or the celebrity status & history of Ford, soooo... No need to appease him.

 

[SNIKT1950]

Hahaha ... but just so you know us 'Haters' aren't really haters, our problem is that we care way too much about Star Wars. We enjoy the lore, like the characters that we have grown up with and just want to see good Star Wars movies that don't retroactively take a cow pat on the previous movies. So I guess you could say we are... the 'Lovers' ... no wait that came out wrong... um my point is that um yeh those cows in a field have good sense is all.... so there [phew really showed Khev how wrong he was]



I totally get where you are coming from and can understand why you enjoyed the movie. You went into TLJ with an open mind and were happy to sit back and watch little Rian play with his Luke Skywalker action figure in the Star Wars sand pit.

BUT...[sorry I didn't mean to shout], this is where the problem lies for most of the 'Haters' dammit I mean 'Lovers' ... I mean, aw forget it. Luke is a character that we have seen grow and evolve through three movies. Many of us read the EU books, comics, played the games or even had our own adventures with kenner Luke. I'm sure a lot of us spent hours chatting with friends, speculating how episodes 7,8 and 9 might turn out. Therein lies the first problem, for a lot of us long time fans it's hard to do a 'Khev' (sorry I didn't mean to make that a thing lol) and leave our own personal baggage at the door when we see these movies. We all have expectations of how we want to see the character served and with Luke Skywalker it's even more prominent than all the others including Han Solo. I believe the reason for this might be because for many of the older male fans, Luke is 'us' in the Star Wars universe.

Now I'm sure we all wanted to be Han because he gets the girl, has a cool ship, his hairy dog is his sidekick, he kicks back in cantinas, dabbles on the wrong side of the law (but not too much), is sarcastic, has a great dress sense (haha), shoots first, is mysterious and is an all round cool guy.

BUT...[sorry keep shouting] we may have wanted to be Han but we weren't, we were Luke. Han was confident, had already been off adventuring and knew how to chat up the ladies. As kids, most of us were on a moisture farm looking out at the twin suns, full of hope and optimism, a bit awkward but couldn't wait to go off on our own adventures.

View attachment 389420

We watched Luke get swept up in the greatest adventure of all and we went with him. We saw him grow from a wide-eyed kid into a Jedi Master. He made life long friends who he never gave up on and who never gave up on him. He repeatedly got knocked down and things didn't always come easy to him. But Luke worked hard, never gave up and always looked for the good in people (even when they didn't deserve it). He learned from his failures, earned his victories and by the end of the OT he was a strong, confident young man. He appeared to be at peace with himself and he was content with his place in the universe. He was who we wanted to be once we had grown up. [Man the OT had some good life lessons and role models I wonder if those are in the ST ]

View attachment 389421

So here is the catch... for many older fans, 'we' were Luke Skywalker or he represented our hopes and dreams as kids. TLJ takes Luke and says but yeh that guy ended up as the biggest failure of all. He gave up on everyone, his friends, his nephew, his students and himself. He wanted to die but couldn't even do that right so now he is milk slurping hermit weirdo.

This just seems so far out of character, not only to the Luke of the OT but also to the Luke of the EU and the Luke of our imaginations. It is also deliberately the opposite of what fans wanted for Luke... why do that? As it is a conscious decision to treat Luke in this way, on some level TLJ is actually insulting. Not only because it disregards our role model as a complete loser but as Luke represents 'us' it implies that LFL thinks that 'we' (it's older loyal fan base) are also hermit milk slurping losers too (we probably are to some extent haha but we don't want Star Wars to tell us that) and that we should just force evaporate away.

I made some assumptions here when I spoke for the other haters but this is how it is for me (I suspect it might ring true for other people too). Even though I like the force projection scene (it's a really neat Luke thing to do), I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to accept that this Luke is the same character as the one I have known for most of my life (I saw Star Wars young!). TLJ looked pretty and sounded good (fun with Rose and Finn is the worst part of any Star Wars score ever) but it got a lot wrong. Whilst I can forgive most things (I like the prequels A LOT) I apparently draw the line at LFL taking a cow pat on Luke Skywalker.

So I bid you good day sir [slurps green milk, wipes excess from beard whilst pulling face at Khev and stomps off out of the thread].

View attachment 389436

[I can't leave this thread really it's too fun, now I'm force ghost Bravomite - hanging around zapping things with lightening]

This guy gets it.

The Luke Skywalker of TLJ is not Luke Skywalker. It's Rian Johnson's Luke Skywalker (aka Jake Skywalker).

Defenders of TLJ know this deep down inside but won't accept it because it basically destroys Luke Skywalker and the current series of SW films.

 

[xipotec]

I wonder ....
If we got a Luke ala the PT , flipping around , cutting down stormtroopers , would that have been Luke for some people?


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[loki2371]

I wonder ....
If we got a Luke ala the PT , flipping around , cutting down stormtroopers , would that have been Luke for some people?


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I highly doubt that's what anyone actually wanted to see... But a Luke that represented what the character stood for for 40 years. A Hero. Who defied the odds and always did what was right, and protected his friends. You know, the kind of character we'd want our kids to look up to, like we did. Yeah, that's the Luke I expected. Not a mopey sour puss who gave up in his old age. All I have to do is look around in reality for that. This is fantasy, an escape from reality. But, nope... Instead we got a "Luke in a different direction no one expected to see". Not the way to shake things up in my opinion. Fine for going in a different direction, but in my opinion he was the wrong character to do that to.

I highly doubt that Rey will have a falling from grace, that is if anyone even cares about the character 40 years from now..

 

[xipotec]

I highly doubt that's what anyone actually wanted to see... But a Luke that represented what the character stood for for 40 years. A Hero. Who defied the odds and always did what was right, and protected his friends. You know, the kind of character we'd want our kids to look up to, like we did. Yeah, that's the Luke I expected. Not a mopey sour puss who gave up in his old age. All I have to do is look around in reality for that. This is fantasy, an escape from reality. But, nope... Instead we got a "Luke in a different direction no one expected to see". Not the way to shake things up in my opinion. Fine for going in a different direction, but in my opinion he was the wrong character to do that to.

Well stated.

But he does step up at the end?

Saves his friends and redeems himself with the ultimate troll.....

A projection of himself literally won over reality...


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[loki2371]

Well stated.

But he does step up at the end?

Saves his friends and redeems himself with the ultimate troll.....

A projection of himself literally won over reality...


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Kinda... It was still oddly done with him actually not being there.. The redemption wasn't very satisfying for me.. Then he falls of a rock, climbs back up and fades away.. Poetry..

 

[xipotec]

Kinda... It was still oddly done with him actually not being there.. The redemption wasn't very satisfying for me.. Then he falls of a rock, climbs back up and fades away.. Poetry..

It’s like looking at a mirror of my own life....



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[loki2371]

It’s like looking at a mirror of my own life....



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The falling of a rock part??

 

[TaliBane]

I wonder ....
If we got a Luke ala the PT , flipping around , cutting down stormtroopers , would that have been Luke for some people?


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Yes, this is exactly what I was wanting to see. Luke with two double-bladed lightsabers using a PT baton-twirl maneuver.

It’s like looking at a mirror of my own life....



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I think somewhere along the line we forgot that movie heroes are yes, relatable... but also aspirational. Just because you are a tired, burnt-out older dude figuratively marooned on your own island, doesn't mean you want your bigscreen hero to literally be that also. Who phones in his heroism to boot - doesn't even bother to get in the ****ing car to go fight his battle, just logs on and uses his avatar. Oh, but that's "clever" or Jedi-like... or something.

Honestly... the whole thing's not just sad but ****ing pathetic. An interesting commentary on what constitutes heroism in the age of social media stars, irreconcilable political disagreement and identity politics (where you can be a "hero" solely because of your gender, skin color, religion etc. etc.)

Ah, what makes a "hero" in Star Wars films for the "genitals don't mean gender" generation - what a field day for early 21st century Semiotics students of the future.

 

[xipotec]

Let’s just say I have done all of it.....




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[Wor-Gar]

Pretty funny that this "great success" called TLJ has generated not one but two OT Jedi Lukes from both HT and SS in competition.

So neither one wanted to take on this masterful new version of the familiar Jedi in his latest guise? Really? No one?

 

[guyver1]

Damn wish they left this in the film

 

[TonTon]

Pretty funny that this "great success" called TLJ has generated not one but two OT Jedi Lukes from both HT and SS in competition.

So neither one wanted to take on this masterful new version of the familiar Jedi in his latest guise? Really? No one?

I think they had a little more time to work on a ROTJ version than the one from the end of TLJ, images of that version of Luke were probably under embargo until release.