Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[a-dev]

Dooku was a maverick like Qui-Gon. Would've loved to know the full story behind both of them.

No I think EVILFACE has a point there. If Dooku was seduced by the dark side at his age so too could a more mature Anakin be.

EVILFACE undermining pro-PT arguments. He's one of us now.

 

[jye4ever]

I just saw a new subscription to RLM a person that goes by the name GOODHEAD.....

Hmmmm

 

[abake]

No I think EVILFACE has a point there. If Dooku was seduced by the dark side at his age so too could a more mature Anakin be.

EVILFACE undermining pro-PT arguments. He's one of us now.

I never had the feeling that Dooku was seduced by the dark side, but rather made a rational decision to support Palpatine's plans because he was disillusioned by the way the Republic was being run.

 

[ShadowX81]

Because he wasn't raised by slightly rebelious Obi Van as an apprentice (and potential messiah) of the Order of awkward-n-stiff warrior monks? Because his mother didn't die on his hands? Because he didn't have a love interest since childhood? That's the whole ****ing point.

No, the whole point is that George Lucas doesn't know how to direct actors (even the actors themselves complained about the lack of direction and how he insisted on moving on during practice takes). He also insisted on filming everything on green screen with no stand ins so no one had anything to react to. It doesn't help that CGI was relatively bad back then so everything looked too clean and sterile. So he got a lot of stifled, bizarre performances out of otherwise decent actors.

 

[RIDDICK]

No.

Sorry but I'll have to disregard your "no" here and move on.
E1/2/3 are bad/meh/ok films with meh/ok/good stories, that's all there's to it.

 

[ironwez20]

Pretty much so.

 

[SNIKT1950]

I think the problem a lot of fans have with Anakin’s turn is the pacing. Instead of having Anakin solely frustrated with the Jedi in AOTC, they should have started his distrust in that film, that way by the time you get to ROTS, he’s spent years feeling mistrust and bitterness, then his posting on the council without promotion would be like the last straw and it’d be more believable for him to fairly quickly turn his back in favor of following Palpatine. The way the movies are, Anakin goes from pals and joking with Obi-Wan to ready to kill him in a matter of days and it feels rushed.

I disagree.

Anakin from AOTC has a problematic relationship with Obi-Wan. As Palps fuels his mistrust for the Jedi, said relationship goes from immature defiance towards his mentor to petty jealousy and resentment. Anakin wanted Obi-Wan to stand up for him when the Council rejected his promotion to Master. In Obi-Wan not doing so, Anakin sees his friend's complete allegiance to the Jedi and a line is drawn between the two that can never be undone. That's why in the end [with glowing eyes] he screams to him "I hate you!!!!!". It's the summation of their flawed relationship. Its Anakin showing his incapability of lowering his head to his big brother. Of accepting that true wisdom requires time and patience, something Obi-Wan achieved through decades. His defeat to Obi-Wan is infuriating because it proves that he was wrong all along. That he didn't deserve to be a Master. That he should have been more mindful of the present instead of living in the future - which Yoda explains to Luke was his greatest problem.

It's a great transition and not at all a rushed one.

When Anakin sees Obi-Wan standing at the door of Padme's ship, Hayden's performance beautifully captures the problem at hand: that Anakin knew Obi-Wan despite being a mentor, friend and brother in arms - would never approve of his absurd decisions. That's why McDiarmid dubbed the SW saga "Fathers and Sons". Obi-Wan is the rigid, strict parent that wants the best for Anakin, while Palps is the indulgent parent who supports Anakin's every move even when others deem it inappropriate.

Again, had Anakin been in his 40s in ROTS none of this would have worked. Vader only works when born of raw passion and feelings of insecurity and inadequacy in the eyes of the Jedi. A young Jedi lost. He matures into a calculating warrior as a Sith.

 

[a-dev]

I never had the feeling that Dooku was seduced by the dark side, but rather made a rational decision to support Palpatine's plans because he was disillusioned by the way the Republic was being run.

The end result is the same though - he became an agent of the dark side. I see no reason Anakin couldn't have likewise taken Dooku's path.

 

[Otomofan]

Am I the only one that sees what appears to be a nasty sty on Luke's lower left eyelid? It's all I see. Every time I see the trailer I just can't stop staring at it. It's gross. Why the hell didn't someone on the production do something about it?

 

[SNIKT1950]

Am I the only one that sees what appears to be a nasty sty on Luke's lower left eyelid? It's all I see. Every time I see the trailer I just can't stop staring at it. It's gross. Why the hell didn't someone on the production do something about it?

Hamill's old. Luke is old. Why reduce his weathering?

 

[ShadowX81]

When Anakin sees Obi-Wan standing at the door of Padme's ship, Hayden's performance beautifully captures the problem at hand: that Anakin knew Obi-Wan despite being a mentor, friend and brother in arms - would never approve of his absurd decisions. That's why McDiarmid dubbed the SW saga "Fathers and Sons". Obi-Wan is the rigid, strict parent that wants the best for Anakin, while Palps is the indulgent parent who supports Anakin's every move even when others deem it inappropriate.

Again, had Anakin been in his 40s in ROTS none of this would have worked. Vader only works when born of raw passion and feelings of insecurity and inadequacy in the eyes of the Jedi. A young Jedi lost. He matures into a calculating warrior as a Sith.

No, you're version of Vader as a petulant, immature, child who only overtook the galaxy and destroyed the Jedi as part of some out of control temper tantrum only works if its born out of a young man's passion.

Vader was always so compelling because of his subtlety. The Vader we saw in the OT; a strong and tacturn military commander whose deep seated anger is hidden by an ironically strong degree of emotional restraint does not match with the PT's portrayal in the slightest.

Darth Vader is a loyal cog in the Empire's military machine; driven by control, restraint, and discipline. Hayden's immaturity was the exact opposite of this.

 

[Prime Clone]

Edit: PT Vader is a young man, OT Vader is a grownup. That more than explains his lack of headstrong behaviour in the OT.

However the potential for good he had as a young man remains, and is released at the end of the OT.

 

[ironwez20]

No, you're version of Vader as a petulant, immature, child who only overtook the galaxy and destroyed the Jedi as part of some out of control temper tantrum only works if its born out of a young man's passion.

Vader was always so compelling because of his subtlety. The Vader we saw in the OT; a strong and tacturn military commander whose deep seated anger is hidden by an ironically strong degree of emotional restraint does not match with the PT's portrayal in the slightest.

Darth Vader is a loyal cog in the Empire's military machine; driven by control, restraint, and discipline. Hayden's immaturity was the exact opposite of this.

Again Vader grew to be that way . His hatred grew over time. He fell from grace. He wasn’t always an evil man. Vader let his hatred grow after his fight with obiwan and the suit he wore was pretty much s torture device. Vader as a kid makes way more sense then some old man suddenly flipping out and destroying the Jedi. A child prodigy turned evil war lord is way more compelling. Betraying his friends and loved ones and losing his place is much better.
Vader had to prove himself time and time again to the emperor and the emperor tried to have him killed many times but Vader blew through it and it added to his rage.

Various times Vader says that he KILLS anakin because they are different . He doesn’t see himself as anakin anymore but as a different person. So again anakin being younger and naive makes much more sense then some old guy who looks like he was past his prime .

 

[abake]

The end result is the same though - he became an agent of the dark side. I see no reason Anakin couldn't have likewise taken Dooku's path.

Not really, the point I'm trying to make is that Dooku wasn't so much turned to the dark side, but rather decided to go that way.
He never struck me as an apprentice of Palpatine's, he was more of an associate. He never expected to be betrayed by Palpatine, because he wasn't into the mindset of the Sith, whereas Vader fully knows he can be betrayed and replaced at any point in time and accepts it (while planning Palpatine's downfall all the time).

 

[Prime Clone]

The new comics aren't essential but they do add further resonance to Anakin's downfall. There are two further occasions where he "kills" Anakin.

 

[YoNoSe]

No, you're version of Vader as a petulant, immature, child who only overtook the galaxy and destroyed the Jedi as part of some out of control temper tantrum only works if its born out of a young man's passion.

Vader was always so compelling because of his subtlety. The Vader we saw in the OT; a strong and tacturn military commander whose deep seated anger is hidden by an ironically strong degree of emotional restraint does not match with the PT's portrayal in the slightest.

Darth Vader is a loyal cog in the Empire's military machine; driven by control, restraint, and discipline. Hayden's immaturity was the exact opposite of this.

So much nope.
Dude chokes out his allies and enemies alike from the jump. Openly criticizes the organization's crown jewel at staff meetings. Loses his one valuable hostage because he wants to rub his old teacher's nose in how awesome he is. Abandons his leadership post to go pew-pew-pew in his spaceship. Uses company resources to track down his kid (even engaging outside contractors). Murders employees when annoyed.

 

[ShadowX81]

So much nope.
Dude chokes out his allies and enemies alike from the jump. Openly criticizes the organization's crown jewel at staff meetings. Loses his one valuable hostage because he wants to rub his old teacher's nose in how awesome he is. Abandons his leadership post to go pew-pew-pew in his spaceship. Uses company resources to track down his kid (even engaging outside contractors). Murders employees when annoyed.

So much nope.
All of your examples are taken extremely out of context and don't hold up at all. The biggest problem being that you cannot see the difference between over-confident power moves (Vader) and complete lack of any emotional control or maturity (Anakin). In every single case you listed Vader easily could have lost his patience and had an Anakin-esqe hissy fit like Kylo Ren. (Actually the prequels would serve as a much better origin story for someone like him). But Vader remained cool and in control of his use of power the entire time. You are clearly stretching here.

Again Vader grew to be that way . His hatred grew over time. He fell from grace. He wasn’t always an evil man. Vader let his hatred grow after his fight with obiwan and the suit he wore was pretty much s torture device. Vader as a kid makes way more sense then some old man suddenly flipping out and destroying the Jedi. A child prodigy turned evil war lord is way more compelling. Betraying his friends and loved ones and losing his place is much better.
Vader had to prove himself time and time again to the emperor and the emperor tried to have him killed many times but Vader blew through it and it added to his rage.

Various times Vader says that he KILLS anakin because they are different . He doesn’t see himself as anakin anymore but as a different person. So again anakin being younger and naive makes much more sense then some old guy who looks like he was past his prime .

So you are saying that the prequels serve as an effective origin story to a classic character by showing a younger version of the character that is nothing at all like the one we know at any point, with no shared personality traits or dispositions, and then having any of the development that may link the two up occurring completely off screen?

How about just making an origin story that tells the full development on screen using a believable young version of the character that we can actually recognize?

You also seem to be held up on this old man thing. The whole point of ROTJ is that Vader is past his prime and Palpatine is trying to replace him. Regardless, it's not really a debatable point since the portrayal did happen. Shaw is Vader. Vader being an old man in ROTJ is just a fact that cannot be reasoned around.

 

[YoNoSe]

I'm being a bit jokey, but in no way stretching the fact that Vader is portrayed as dangerous, unpredictable, overly sensitive and off - message. That's all right there in ANH. "Quietly crazy" is not the same as "cool and in control."

 

[ShadowX81]

The problem is that Hayden was neither.

I also would argue against Vader being overly sensitive and off-message. He was always very straight forward. He just had very little patience for incompetence at high levels of military leadership. Notice that interestingly enough he never demonstrated any of this rage at a stormtrooper.

 

[YoNoSe]

The problem is that Hayden was neither.

I also would argue against Vader being overly sensitive and off-message. He was always very straight forward. He just had very little patience for incompetence at high levels of military leadership. Notice that interestingly enough he never demonstrated any of this rage at a stormtrooper.

He downplays the Death Star in favor of his religion and chokes an officer with magic when rebuked for his inappropriate remarks. That's off message and over-sensitive in my book. I'd say you're making more of a leap saying it's impatience with military leaders as a rule. Military leaders are his peers. He mostly works with them, not stormtroopers. It's never stated or implied.