Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[Spartan Rex]

 

[spindrift]

 

[klwn]

Well numbers talk and it looks like despite its enormous plot holes and ridiculous story The Last Jedi is close to 1 billion. I wonder if our voices will even be heard. They now have almost made the money they paid for LucasArts, so even if the movie was a disappointment will it even matter with those box office numbers?


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I'd say try to find TaliBane's and others previous posts about this subject. It was discussed at length.

The gist of it is: yes TLJ is going to have an amazing box office, but it's still going to be way below optimistic expectations, which were at around 1.7 billion had the movie been good for more people. So the backlash will definitely be reflected in the numbers, and is big enough anyway that Lucasfilm is aware of it (which is why they made sure Mark Hamill would shut up for example). Bots or not, there is still a lot of truth to the audience scores, which are still dropping btw.

TFA made 2.1 billion so the difference will be pretty big between the two movies, and TLJ will actually end up much closer to Rogue One than to TFA.

 

[morphosis]

That isn't true at all. The whole part of Luke's arc was that both Yoda and Ben were wrong. They convinced him that to become a Jedi was to sacrifice all the things that mattered to him and take a dogmatic approach to learning the force, and he proved them wrong and brought balance to it.




Wrong again. As has been stated over and over and over again in the series, the Force may be found everywhere, but only certain inidividuals are sensitive to it. Not fair maybe, but reality. And even then, in order to harness that skill into ability, it takes decades of training. Hundreds of years to become a true master like Yoda. Not everyone can just pick it up from scratch any more than any old person could just walk onto a sports field and play professionally.

And in order to receive that training, you must be taught certain skills and mindsets. That is where the Jedi come from. They were not "power hungry", "selfish", or "small minded". Nor were they even in control of anything in the galaxy. To be a Jedi is literally the exact opposite of that. And what does being mostly male (they weren't. about a 50/50 split) have to do with anything?! You are clearly making this political.

The old ways didn't fail at all. The old ways were responsible for the most prosperous and peaceful time that the galaxy ever saw, and its only ended because a sliver of the dark side was able to hide away and remain, growing like a tumor. To say that the entire order of the Jedi was a failure to the point of having to be thrown entirely away is a colossal oversimplification to the point of being a platitude.

sorry. i disagree with all of this. and i wasn't saying the Jedi were the power hungry, selfish, and small minded, i was talking about the Empire, the FO, and everyone who fell into complacency to accept that way of life. Kylo, Snoke, the Emperor, Vader included. The Empire and the FO were/are mainly run by males. I wasn't talking about the Jedi. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

so then you accept Luke was not a Jedi Master since he trained for just a few days with Yoda?

And yes, sorry I didn't say Ben's name but I meant him as well. Ben tried to convince Yoda to train Luke, and also Anakin (with QuiGon). They were all wrong.

This is the whole point of The Last Jedi. Luke says its time for the Jedi to end and he's right. Its time for them to end as the way we all knew them. Rey is the new inspiration. Yoda was never confident in Anakin or Luke, but is completely confident in Rey is the way they need to go.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I'd say try to find TaliBane's and others previous posts about this subject. It was discussed at length.

The gist of it is: yes TLJ is going to have an amazing box office, but it's still going to be way below optimistic expectations, which were at around 1.7 billion had the movie been good for more people. So the backlash will definitely be reflected in the numbers, and is big enough anyway that Lucasfilm is aware of it (which is why they made sure Mark Hamill would shut up for example). Bots or not, there is still a lot of truth to the audience scores, which are still dropping btw.

TFA made 2.1 billion so the difference will be pretty big between the two movies, and TLJ will actually end up much closer to Rogue One than to TFA.

Yes.

Box office will be yesterday's news in a few more weeks.

After that, its years and years of how this movie sits with fans. And that's the problem, not the money.

 

[ShadowX81]

so then you accept Luke was not a Jedi Master since he trained for just a few days with Yoda?

Its granted hard to accept, but atleast it was something. Even if we had just had a training montage with Rey and Luke it would have been something. Not to mention it is heavily implied (and confirmed in the EU) that Luke had been training between films. Atleast that is some time. Rey had nothing. No setup or no training at all. They have taken the entire hero's journey and simplified it down to "Believe in yourself and then you're done".

The Force isn't just some power that everyone just has. Its a skill that has to be developed. Regardless of how long that development takes, there needs to be some kind of growth that Rey goes through. Instead this just seems like an excuse to show how cool she is. Even her injury at the end of the movie is this perfect, symmetrical scar in just the right place to look cool.

And yes, sorry I didn't say Ben's name but I meant him as well. Ben tried to convince Yoda to train Luke, and also Anakin (with QuiGon). They were all wrong.

They would have been completely right had Anakin not had one foot already out the door because of Padme and Sideous sweeping in for an easy score.

This is the whole point of The Last Jedi. Luke says its time for the Jedi to end and he's right. Its time for them to end as the way we all knew them. Rey is the new inspiration. Yoda was never confident in Anakin or Luke, but is completely confident in Rey is the way they need to go.

Which way is that? Its not even clear what this new way is. Other than nitpicking tiny imperfections in the implementation of a philosophy that on the whole worked just fine, and arguing that everything has to be completely thrown out as a result, what is this new path that the Jedi need to take that is so much better? It seems just like an excuse to declare 40 year old ideas irrelevant just because "old things are boring".

 

[JAWS]

Now I know some (cough JAWS cough) are going to quickly point out to me that diversity wasn’t their main problem with the movie but that’s irrelevant because I guarantee you that’s the primary reason Disney is going with on why it will earn 1 billion less than TFA and why that RT backlash exists. It sure is much easier to blame the 1 billion loss on others for pushing back against diversity than it is to blame themselves or their sweetheart Rian especially after they already announced his trilogy.

I don't disagree that that is what Disney will blame.. You see it all the time anymore.. If someone does not line up with you politically.. Call them Racist or Sexist... Shuts down the conversation and makes you the (in your own mind) winner of the debate. Because now you are not discussing the issues. Now you are just trying to prove you are not Racist or Sexist..

If Disney takes that path (which is probably the one they will take) then that is too bad.. Because this film had real problems. Not Woman and Asians.

Wonder what their excuse was for the Success of TFA.. There was plenty of diversity in that film also. Hmmmmm.

 

[klwn]

Its granted hard to accept, but atleast it was something. Even if we had just had a training montage with Rey and Luke it would have been something. Not to mention it is heavily implied (and confirmed in the EU) that Luke had been training between films. Atleast that is some time. Rey had nothing. No setup or no training at all. They have taken the entire hero's journey and simplified it down to "Believe in yourself and then you're done".

The Force isn't just some power that everyone just has. Its a skill that has to be developed. Regardless of how long that development takes, there needs to be some kind of growth that Rey goes through. Instead this just seems like an excuse to show how cool she is. Even her injury at the end of the movie is this perfect, symmetrical scar in just the right place to look cool.


They would have been completely right had Anakin not had one foot already out the door because of Padme and Sideous sweeping in for an easy score.


Which way is that? Its not even clear what this new way is. Other than nitpicking a system that on the whole worked just fine, and arguing that everything has to be completely thrown out as a result, what is this new path that the Jedi need to take that is so much better? It seems just like an excuse to declare 30 year old ideas irrelevant just because "old things are boring".

Yes, Luke's amount of training is huge compared to Rey's. People don't realize that TFA + TLJ happen just over a few days, and that she had never used the Force before that. Of course until TLJ, most people were convinced it would be explained via some sort of mind wipe (probably what JJ had planned in his mind), but now... Nah, she is the light that rose to meet the dark and that's it, here is your explanation, have fun with your new Force canon.

Regarding Anakin, actually he is still considered to be the Chosen One for a lot of people as it's never been officially confirmed I think if it was Luke or Anakin.
He did end up destroying the Sith, so the prophecy came true. Just in a different way than was first expected.

And Rey has the old Jedi books, Luke tells Kylo that the Jedi aren't going to end so... Yeah, still more Jedi.

 

[a-dev]

Jonah Hex played a pretty good young Two Face in MIB3.

Naw man you're thinking of the older brother in The Goonies.

edit - Actually this isn't funny. But it's too late to delete it. I've left it stand for too long and people have probably already read it and said - ''why did he type that? That wasn't funny. Did he not realize that Jonah Hex was played by Josh Brolin?'' Well....

 

[JAWS]

All I know is that Khev dipped and left me hanging higher than lactating titty’s on a cliffside.

I have actually felt bad for you Jye.. I thought about trying to stick up for TLJ and talk more about the 1 or 2 good parts in the film but I just cant bring myself to do it.. The more time that goes by the more this film feels less and less like a true SW film..

Yeah.. I am going to say it now... Skull Island is better then TLJ

Pretty much the only big YouTube 'critic' who doesn't hold off regarding TLJ.

I watched this earlier today.. His last speech regarding this film is exactly how I feel and thus I feel its spot on.. Just because the film went against expectations does not make it good.. Go against expectations with a quality story and adventure and then you have something..

As is its a film that does not even match up to JL, story quality wise... That's for you too Jye

 

[Wor-Gar]

Because this film had real problems. Not Woman and Asians.

But the problems were often disguised by women or Asian to force the debate of which you speak.

 

[klwn]

I watched this earlier today.. His last speech regarding this film is exactly how I feel and thus I feel its spot on.. Just because the film went against expectations does not make it good.. Go against expectations with a quality story and adventure and then you have something..

Yeah that argument in defense of the movie still blows my mind. I expected to see Luke wreck some fools. Was it good that the movie went against my expectations? **** no. I can do a list like that for the entire movie

Like another guy said, people are fine with it because it's Star Wars, they just accept what's given to them because they aren't screenwriters or directors so they don't try to find ways to improve on what they just saw. It was made this way by professionals, it's got the Star Wars logo, so it's great.
But if you are hungry and someone gives you an awful sandwich, just because you aren't a great cook doesn't mean you should be fine with the sandwich being awful.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Haha ...



I thought TLJ was better than TFA. Kylo Ren and Dameron were certainly more interesting this time around. Laura Dern's character was surprisingly good, though the purple wig was distracting ... and why was an admiral in a dress? Didn't much care for Finn's sidekick, she was a bit irritating (reminded me of the young Asian doctor on House briefly, who was also irritating). And, I'm not sure they needed to kill off Luke like that -- a genuine return to Luke's Jedi glory would've been nice to see, as would have a straight lightsaber duel without the theatrics. But, I thought the more conflicted Skywalker characterization was interesting ... and, frankly, I've wondered if the Jedi are more trouble than they're worth. They can't seem to train-up prosects without half of them breaking bad and trying to subordinate the entire universe. So, it's a legitimate perspective.

Honestly, I just appreciated that this movie took risks that TFA didn't. Even if the risks didn't all pan-out well, I appreciate the innovation that wasn't there in TFA.

Imperfect. But, not horrible. I'd rank it middle-of-the-pack overall.

SnakeDoc

 

[crows]

I understand this will make a big profit
I understand the backlash might not do anything to disney
I understand the lucasfilm empire will not be undone by this reception...

But the fact that we made enough noise to scare them enough to silence mark on twitter and for them to try to blame russian hackers in a moment of panic is an accomplishment that i will take to my grave

 

[JAWS]

But the problems were often disguised by women or Asian to force the debate of which you speak.

But most (I think) have an issue with the nowhere plots that surround these characters more then the characters themselves.. Give them good plot, better fleshed out roles, and perhaps better casting and we are probably not having this discussion..

All would be left if how much people hate how Luke was treated.

Without question it seems that Disney had an agenda.. But Agendas are not necessarily always a bad things.. Bad ideas and Bad scripts are always bad things

 

[Star Puffs]

Well numbers talk and it looks like despite its enormous plot holes and ridiculous story The Last Jedi is close to 1 billion. I wonder if our voices will even be heard. They now have almost made the money they paid for LucasArts, so even if the movie was a disappointment will it even matter with those box office numbers?

Disney probably gets 50% or so the domestic box office, less overseas.

The production costs of films in general is very opaque and obscured by what is referred to as "Hollywood Accounting." The cost estimates for TLJ range from $200-300 million.

They're definitely making money, but net income from the film alone will might only be in the range of $200-300 million. Of course Star Wars has other revenue streams. Still, recouping their $4 billioninvestment is harder than you might expect and I doubt they have done so yet.

The glaring failure to match TFA's box office and the sharp decline in merchandising sales is going to be debated behind the scenes even if Disney plays identity politics in public. Investors don't like losing money.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Coming soon to a Star Wars movie near you....

 

[Wor-Gar]

But most (I think) have an issue with the nowhere plots that surround these characters more then the characters themselves.. Give them good plot, better fleshed out roles, and perhaps better casting and we are probably not having this discussion..

All would be left if how much people hate how Luke was treated.

Without question it seems that Disney had an agenda.. But Agendas are not necessarily always a bad things.. Bad ideas and Bad scripts are always bad things

I know, I was joking. The least of that movie's problems is the women or diversity.


I'm a patient man. I know this time next year there will be a lot more people here unhappy with TLJ than there are now. I expect many to turn on this turd between now and blu ray release.

Merchandise sales will be abysmal. There's truly nothing 'cool' in this movie that I'd want as a kid. Maybe Snoke big ol' ship and that's it. The design and art sucked in this movie. RO was lightyears ahead in its inventiveness.

 

[JAWS]

Nope

Yep. If it makes Bank then Disney does not care..

What do you think the point of the Casino planet was all about?

Never underestimate the power of Greed. In TLJ the people if the galaxy do not matter.. Here on earth the fans don't matter

 

[klwn]

I'm a patient man. I know this time next year there will be a lot more people here unhappy with TLJ than there are now. I expect many to turn on this turd between now and blu ray release.

Merchandise sales will be abysmal. There's truly nothing 'cool' in this movie that I'd want as a kid. Maybe Snoke big ol' ship and that's it. The design and art sucked in this movie. RO was lightyears ahead in its inventiveness.

This guy went from loving it to hating it in a few days apparently (after he realized there was no real plan for the trilogy)