Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[TaliBane]

He flew a T-16 skyhopper. He mentions it in the film and you can see it parked in the background. Rey has never flown a single thing in her life yet on her first go seems to be an ace pilot.


No one spoke directly with Chewie. Han seemed to be the only one who could understand him in the first movie.


Luke still had weeks of training with Yoda on Dagobah (which we saw) and months spent practicing those skills on Tattoine. Rey has nothing, nada, zilch. We can't even say that she has been practicing because TLJ takes place immediately after TFA. She just had the force one day because believing in yourself is all it takes.

In the first moment I saw Rey talking to CHewy, I was like... when did she learn to speak Wookiee? And true - in the OT, nobody but Han appears to speak Wookiee (though it has that weird movie thing where Han speaks English, Chewy responds in Wookiee, to which Han responds in English)

And yeah, Luke's training with Yoda in ESB I always assumed was a couple of weeks. There's even a number of fairly significant training scenes that were shot but cut (acrobatics and the metal bars slicing exercise) which may have made it feel like he trains even longer.

The ROTJ cut scenes of Luke communing with Vader via the force and completing assembly of his new lightsaber (shown at Celebration) would have pretty clearly have set up Luke with an elevated set of abilities at the start of ROTJ, and also the passage of months since the events of ESB.

Yoda states that the act of Luke facing Vader in ROTJ will complete his transition to becoming a Jedi - it's in that same speech that Yoda confirms to Luke that Vader is his father. Vader's abilities aside, that complex father/son aspect to the confrontation introduces an emotional/fate wildcard that makes it a once-in-a-lifetime encounter that would obviously have a profound affect on Luke's force abilities grow versus if Vader was not related to him.

It's one of the problems with TLJ beginning in the same instant TFA ends - there's no wiggle room to explain Rey's abilities. And I really get no emotional or mythic pull to her journey - other than maybe a drifter looking to connect to family in some way, even with all the "lightsaber calling her" type things they toss in.

 

[Prime Clone]

Force Kids sounds like the name of a Disney SW movie or tv show.

Exactly. There'll be live-action and animated versions, movie and TV.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Why did Luke's lightsaber "call" to Rey in the first place if she's not a Skywalker?

Can Anakin's saber communicate with anybody? Broom kid even?

 

[ShadowX81]

Yoda states that the act of Luke facing Vader in ROTJ will complete his transition to becoming a Jedi - it's in that same speech that Yoda confirms to Luke that Vader is his father. Vader's abilities aside, that complex father/son aspect to the confrontation introduces an emotional/fate wildcard that makes it a once-in-a-lifetime encounter that would obviously have a profound affect on Luke's force abilities grow versus if Vader was not related to him.

Exactly. Luke was lucky that Vader happened to be his father and had aspirations to turn him. Otherwise Vader very easily would have killed him. Luke was too cocky after a few lessons to realize that he was in way over his head.

In a pretty telling scene from "Rebels", a highly trained Jedi knight and his Padawan manage to barely hold their own against Vader for a few minutes, and the Jedi states afterwards that they were extremely lucky to escape with their lives.

 

[Darth Skywalker]

I’ve had a couple weeks to think about this movie now, annnnnnnnd...

I hate it even more.

Worst movie ever. Took the best franchise ever and made me NOT CARE ANYMORE.

 

[TaliBane]

sorry, i disagree. a T-16 skyhopper that we never saw him fly but he mentioned he flew them. Just like Rey said she knew the Falcon. By then the Falcon is a very old ship with old tech. She clearly knew what it was. And like i said in the books they go into way more detail about her knowing how to fly ships. If you can use off-screen training with Luke, we can certainly use off-screen ship flying with Rey.

There is no real timetable of how long Luke was on Dagobah. its anywhere from 30 minutes to 6 weeks. I think it was towards the less judging by the amount of time Leia and Han were in the Falcon and getting to Cloud City, then being caught by Vader. Luke was maybe with Yoda 5-10 days. We saw nothing of him training on Tattoine. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. (your words)

You can't be open to Luke being a Jedi doing most of his training off-screen and not give the same credit to Rey who learned all her life on Jakku how to take care of herself. A few weeks on Dagobah and Luke can hold his ground against the greatest Sith ever, then 6 months later he can defeat him?

And it all really started with Anakin. He had very high force sensitivities at a very young age. And thats why we can give credit to Rey of being highly sensitive with the Force.

This argument has been going on for 2 years and i just have to say the people who believe in Rey, like me, will never see differently, and I know people like you will never give her the credit like they do with Luke or Anakin, and they got more movies behind their belt plus 40 years of other stories over thousands of books, comics, games, etc etc.

So we just gotta leave it at that...and wait and see what IX tells us about Rey. Like i have mentioned, we know Luke's complete story. We do not know hers. And those of us that have read some of the books about her that are canon understand where some of her skills come from.

And i personally can make the leap with Luke as well. I am actually on your side about Luke, Anakin, all of it. I totally accept their skills, as I do with Rey.
Goodnight.

But a lot of that is being silly-picky with Luke (30 minutes on Dagobah - are you serious?) while allowing books and your own conjecture to back up Rey.

It's clear that Luke is a great pilot, both in ANH and in the filmed/cut ANH scenes. Biggs tells Luke: "You may be the hottest bushpilot this side of Mos Eisley..." Ben says to Luke re: his father: "He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself." In the conversation with Han, Han mocks Luke saying "Who's going to pilot it kid, you?" to which Luke responds "You bet I could. I'm not such a bad pilot myself!"

So... it's 100% clear that Luke's a talented pilot.

Re: time and abilities between ESB and ROTJ. When we meet Luke on Tatooine in ROTJ, he's dressed in black and carries himself WAY differently than he does at any time in ESB. He's confident, cocky even, mocking Jabba, much more a badass than we've ever seen before. He has a new lightsaber he built himself (confirmed onscreen by vader later.) He pretty much single handedly takes out dozens of Jabba's henchmen and destroys everything. This isn't at all something Luke could have done in ESB.

The problem with Rey is that it's 100% clear in the way it's shot that only about a week or so passes between Rey playing with a helmet on Jakku and her mincing up those Snoke guards. There's no wiggle room to explain it. This is precisely where this "Mary Sue" thing comes from.

How Rey can not only fly the Falcon, but out-fly TIE fighters in it, going through tunnels etc - as a scavenger who doesn't have food - is never even remotely explained in the movie. You can understand her self-defense skills with a pole, but a lightsaber? It'd be like handing a street-smart slum dweller a fencing sword. However any of this is explained in the books, it doesn't appear onscreen - which is the only place that matters to most.

 

[comicbookguy]

Saw the movie and loved it! Much better than the first one. Only thing I didn't like was why was Luke so wimpy and afraid? I know he did some good in the end scene, but come on! I wanted him to kick some @$$ much more than we saw. Hopefully they can make Luke redeem himself more after seeing the fans reactions. Disney can always revise and fix this in the next movie.

 

[Asta]

I started to like TLJ a while ago. Not because it's a good movie, but because it has some good in it.

It's clumsily put together.

Some of the acting is a bit dodgy (looking at you, Daisy, struggling with some of your lines and out of your comfort zone).

The comedy is too on your nose in places, but it doesn't break the fourth wall with as much force as Jar Jar or Battle Droids. Of course, it, exists in the ST and PT to appeal to the younger audience, and to help prevent them falling asleep when adults are talking politics, economics or existentialism.

Contemporary politics are played too strongly in TLJ, with not even a veil for modesty.

And then there's the things I don't like which are the same with TFA, and will be for the whole ST, along with any films that continue from this premise: the Han/Leia/Kylo storyline.


When you can sidestep the issues I like the treatment of Luke. He wasn't the ideal character to select to depict this kind of journey of a man's fall from self-worth and self-respect to utter despair.

Why did you think I chose the hardest location to find in the entire galaxy? I came to this island to die.

I only know one truth. It's time for the Jedi... to end.

Hamill didn't think it was ideal either, because "...it's not what a Jedi would do".

Obi-Wan didn't give up, but took Luke to Tatooine and watched over him. Yoda didn't give up, but went to a place where he could hide and wait for a chance to strike back. Neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda ever gave up the fight, since they were awaiting a new hope, and the eventual return of the Jedi.


So, for a Jedi like Luke to fall so deep into despair, you're forced to see just how bad things have become. The middle act of a trilogy is often the darkest, as it builds towards the final conflict. TLJ goes to a much darker place than TESB.

Luke finally struggles back from his isolation, like pulling himself away from that black pit that was holding him there. But it's a psychological journey, not a physical one. His transformation is a shift in thought patterns. Regaining a belief in something, that he can break out of the perpetual present where nothing changes (see Lacanian schizophrenia).

The Rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.

But it kills him. Because this type of hero is a tragic one. They don't get to have a happily ever after. But because it's Star Wars and he's a powerful Jedi, and has no doubt learnt the way to return as a force ghost, at least he's not gone completely.



So, on the face of it TLJ is a bad film, and in some respects it is a bad film.


But I saw something in it when I made the connection with Conrad, and that's what drew me back to give it another chance, to realize that:

It's so much bigger.

 

[aa909]

Why did Luke's lightsaber "call" to Rey in the first place if she's not a Skywalker?

Can Anakin's saber communicate with anybody? Broom kid even?

this is what I'm talking about. RJ basically ignored all the foreshadowing from TFA and decided to do his own thing. That's just lazy and dumb when you're telling the middle part of a trilogy. Why would Luke's light saber call to Rey? JJ was foreshadowing something important in that scene but RJ does nothing to progress the story so what's the point?

Maybe JJ will decide that Kylo pulled a reverse Vader and lied to Rey about her father. But that would be a predictable desperate attempt to save this story line. Let it burn down JJ, let the whole thing burn.

 

[ShadowGuardian]

Why did Luke's lightsaber "call" to Rey in the first place if she's not a Skywalker?

Can Anakin's saber communicate with anybody? Broom kid even?

Luke may have slept around more than we realized. I mean did you see how he handled those *******? The man's obviously had experience.

Thus broom kid has to be a Skywalker.

 

[ZaCHw117]

gonna catch #3 this weekend, stoked to see it after a 2 weeks break.

 

[ZaCHw117]

tired to see justice league a few days ago but my theater doesn’t have it.

 

[morphosis]

Luke mentions he can fly in the movies. Rey....has maybe been onboard the falcon a few times while its been parked? Anything in the books or whatever doesn't count. What counts is the movie.

We saw Luke training, and know for a fact that he spent months practicing. Rey never does either.

He never once held his ground. He became cocky and thought he was ready after a few lessons with Yoda but was scarily unprepared. Vader was toying with him and could have kicked his butt at any second. Which is what he did after Luke managed to somehow get a couple of lucky hits in.

We never see Rey learn anything for a second. With Luke we know for a fact that this stuff occurred. With Rey you are just kind of making stuff up.

Sensitive sure. But even Anakin needed a decade of training. Rey didn't need a minute of it.

But you kept of stating things about Luke that didn't happen in the movie, things were offscreen. months of training...all offscreen.

so that is why i say 10+ years of Rey training herself to fly, hand to hand combat, etc etc is important about Rey. Plus i keep saying we know Luke's story for the past 40 years and was finally completed it this year. We don't know Rey's full story.

After ESB you hand no idea what Luke would become. He left Yoda after a few days, lost his hand, his father is Vader, thats all. Maybe he's inlove with Leia too, who knew?..We see him in RoTJ as a Jedi Master and no one questioned it. We all accepted it. Its a leap of faith you gave to Luke that he became a Jedi without seeing much training. I think Rey deserves that same leap because of what she can do.

It's like there are talented artists in this world and talented athletes. Some have to work and train harder than others, some don't. Some can pick up a pencil and draw or paint amazing things, or they can be gifted with throwing a baseball 100 mph. Some train and work hard never being able to achieve that level, and some don't have to train as hard and are far superior athletes. That is how I always saw Luke and Rey.

Rey trained herself, I clearly got that when I first saw the film. She was a survivor on her own most of her young adult life. She didn't back down from no one. There was a spark in her, she didn't have the anger, hate or fear Luke and Anakin had, and once the Force awakened in her, it poured out.

Plus it's fantasy. This person just has really highly developed force powers in a fantasy story. Why is that so hard to believe?

It doesn't need to be spelled out on screen just like Luke wasn't. Sure there was maybe better detail because of course those films were much better. I mean there is a reason they are so many people's favorite films of all-time. The greatest trilogy ever made.

But I see a lot of how Rey's character was built similar to Luke. We see some of their skills on screen but our imaginations also fill in blanks off-screen too.

And its difficult to take yourself back to the first time we saw ESB and seeing what Luke could do and what happened through just 2 movies. We gotta let Rey's story finish and then we can see the full story.

 

[Star Puffs]

Luke mentions he can fly in the movies. Rey....has maybe been onboard the falcon a few times while its been parked? Anything in the books or whatever doesn't count. What counts is the movie.

Great points. I would add that Luke flies as one among many, under circumstances where the Rebels are absolutely desperate and might plausibly use a pilot with no military background. He would clearly die without Biggs, Wedge, Han, and Obi-wan helping him in ANH. Luke gets shot down by an AT-AT the next time he flies. Rey gets in the Falcon and out flies trained military pilots using Han Solo-level flying techniques.

He never once held his ground. He became cocky and thought he was ready after a few lessons with Yoda but was scarily unprepared. Vader was toying with him and could have kicked his butt at any second. Which is what he did after Luke managed to somehow get a couple of lucky hits in.

Exactly. Vader destroys him once he decides to unleash his power on Luke and Luke has to jump to what they both had to assume would be his death. Luke also gets a beatdown by the Wampa and almost gets owned by Boba Fett in the middle chapter. The MaRey Sue gets one cool scar on her arm.

I will say ESB would be better if the time scale were better sold. It would logically take the Falcon large amounts of time to reach a destination without a hyperdrive, so Luke could have a considerable amount of time to train.

 

[Star Puffs]

she didn't have the anger, hate or fear Luke and Anakin had

...which is utterly implausible given she was effectively sold into slavery by her parents. Anakin and Luke have loving family members who care for them, and still have personal issues that impact their path to being Jedi. Rey should have clear dysfunctional aspects, even if she hides them publicly, and the fact she does not is why she is a wish-fulfillment character rather than a properly realized one.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Rey should have massive trust issues, considering she is an orphan with a rough upbringing. Then again, she was alone and had no friends before Finn, so maybe it was implied that she had some issues.

 

[a-dev]

Your fleet is lost morphosis..and your friends on the endor moon will not survive. The alliance will die. As will your friends.

 

[morphosis]

Your fleet is lost morphosis..and your friends on the endor moon will not survive. The alliance will die. As will your friends.

i will never give into the dark side.

 

[morphosis]

...which is utterly implausible given she was effectively sold into slavery by her parents. Anakin and Luke have loving family members who care for them, and still have personal issues that impact their path to being Jedi. Rey should have clear dysfunctional aspects, even if she hides them publicly, and the fact she does not is why she is a wish-fulfillment character rather than a properly realized one.

i disagree because not every person who has a tough childhood has personal issues that would make them angry and hateful to the point of becoming a lethal murderering psychopath like Anakin and Kylo.

but i never thought she was perfect as some people seem to think.

this article expresses my thoughts 100%

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/amp/

 

[morphosis]

also, i enjoyed this article as well. i agree 100% with it.

https://bittergertrude.com/2017/12/...t-jedi-is-subversive-af-and-i-am-here-for-it/