Terminator Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

[Khev]

Khev's Titanic just met DiFabio's Iceberg.

I'm going to change the timeline so that the ship wins!

I mean, kid John Connor was smart enough to know that each machine was different, his mom taught him all that. Yet in T3, John thinks that the T-850 in front of him is the SAME exact one! "remember hasta la vista baby?"

When John first sees the T-850 he asks if he's there to kill him. So they seem to establish that he knows there are different Arnold models. I think his eyes were just messing with him so severely (you know like all those movies like Starman and a million others where someone is "reborn" but it takes their loved ones time to accept that it's a new person) that he had a hard time not defaulting back to "little John/Uncle Bob" mode at least in the beginning.

It was like his ears needed to hear the T-850 say out loud that he was indeed a different machine before he'd allow himself to accept it.

 

[a-dev]

Man, I feel left behind by the last few pages. Too much to respond to

Some good arguments Khev as to how the events of T3 could still happen. Particularly the point about the original creator of Skynet being restored in that role after the events of T2 - explaining and accounting for the push-back but inevitability of Judgement Day.

My big problem is, the site I linked to earlier - I agree with almost every single one of those nitpicks big and small about the content of the film itself. And when a film has that many issues I don't want to rationalise it into the canon.

T2 requires some thinking to figure out how it fits with T1 because of certain lines of dialogue from Kyle Reese - ''Connor sent me to intercept before they blew the whole place....(how are you supposed to get back?)....I can't. Nobody goes home, nobody else comes through. It's just him and me'' - but that thinking is worth doing for T2. For T3, notsomuch.

I mean, for example, you praised the restraint of them not reusing known catchphrases like Genisys is doing. But on the other hand you've got the pointless Dr Silberman scene which makes a mockery of his character and requires a really silly level of coincidence.

 

[a-dev]

When John first sees the T-850 he asks if he's there to kill him. So they seem to establish that he knows there are different Arnold models. I think his eyes were just messing with him so severely (you know like all those movies like Starman and a million others where someone is "reborn" but it takes their loved ones time to accept that it's a new person) that he had a hard time not defaulting back to "little John/Uncle Bob" mode at least in the beginning.

It was like his ears needed to hear the T-850 say out loud that he was indeed a different machine before he'd allow himself to accept it.

Can you reconcile that with this:

We learn that the war has run well past 2029, and that the T-850 was selected due to the emotional attachment he felt toward that model, which aided the T-850's infiltration. Emotional attachment?! What emotional attachment? Let's rewind back to the animal hospital. John Connor is stunned with fear when he sees the T-850 walking toward him, and the very first thing John Connor says to the T-850 is: "You're here to kill me?" Then there's the end of the crane chase, where John Connor is shocked to see the T-850 pop out of nowhere to assume control of the truck. He's pushing as far away as he can get from the T-850, even though the T-850 has already said that John Connor must live. These are not the actions of someone who thinks that every Arnold-model Terminator is his best buddy.

But hey, let's take all this at face value. So the brooding, loner John Connor is suddenly needy and codependent in the future? A John Connor that's approaching 50 still needs a daddy figure?! What, did he want his kids to have a robot grandfather? Once again John Connor is depicted as being less mature as an adult than as a child, not to mention stupid. The leader of the Resistance can't tell the difference between a good Terminator and a bad Terminator?! The best troops in the Resistance can't detect a Terminator before it kills their leader?! A lot of stupidity and carelessness is required to get to the point where the T-850 could ever have a chance of killing John Connor. The future John Connor seems stupid enough that maybe he deserves to die.

 

[YankeesFanboy]

July 1 - Terminator Genissyss Release Day

OR

July 1 - Watch T1 and T2 Again Day

Hmmm....

 

[a-dev]

July 1 - Terminator Genissyss Release Day

OR

July 1 - Watch T1 and T2 Again Day

Hmmm....

I'd actually go see Genisys. I'm willing to give it at least one shot

 

[Khev]

Man, I feel left behind by the last few pages. Too much to respond to

Yeah when we get going you sure can't miss an hour.

Some good arguments Khev as to how the events of T3 could still happen. Particularly the point about the original creator of Skynet being restored in that role after the events of T2 - explaining and accounting for the push-back but inevitability of Judgement Day.

My big problem is, the site I linked to earlier - I agree with almost every single one of those nitpicks big and small about the content of the film itself. And when a film has that many issues I don't want to rationalise it into the canon.

Well I'll peruse that link a little more then. Prior to now the main criticisms against T3 as I've understood them have been:

1. Pink sunglasses/talk to da hand
2. No James Cameron
3. No Edward Furlong
4. Weird magical TX powers

And then maybe the weird sexual things she does like the blood orgasm and boob job.

I actually watched the second half of T3 last night to gear up for Genisys (because I decided that it just wasn't fair at ALL to watch it immediately after seeing T1 on the big screen) and ended up going. "Wait, that was actually decent. What sucks so bad about this? And then I watched the entire movie from begininning to end" and concluded that it had some damn cool concepts, characterizations, and action sequences and that those dumb things like the sunglasses actually didn't negate all the good. Especially since IMO you kind of have to be forgiving to T2 for some of those same "cross the line" elements.

We've discussed a bit how dumb it is to keep going back to the "good Arnold" but when I was done watching that film I didn't really come away with the thought that he WAS good. He was a murder bot that fulfilled his mission in the future repurposed to escort them to Judgment Day's front row seats. He "protected" them...temporarily as we know full well that that isn't how his relationship with John will end in 2032 when finally takes him out. It just had enough edge and curveballs to where I actually COULD see a very disgruntled Cameron watching the first Terminator film not directed by him and going..."okay that was actually kind of cool."

I mean, for example, you praised the restraint of them not reusing known catchphrases like Genisys is doing. But on the other hand you've got the pointless Dr Silberman scene which makes a mockery of his character and requires a really silly level of coincidence.

Yes it was silly, but still it was just Silberman. He's not some sacred badass of the series or anything. And honestly I think it was kind of a necessary improvisation due to not having Hamilton and losing Furlong to rehab. Without Silberman we would only have had Arnold returning I think that cameo really helped solidify its link to the previous two films. NO ONE from T1-3 appearing in Salvation (digital Arnold doesn't count) just makes that one so easy to ignore, especially since it was so forgettable in its own right.

 

[Khev]

Can you reconcile that with this:

We learn that the war has run well past 2029, and that the T-850 was selected due to the emotional attachment he felt toward that model, which aided the T-850's infiltration. Emotional attachment?! What emotional attachment? Let's rewind back to the animal hospital. John Connor is stunned with fear when he sees the T-850 walking toward him, and the very first thing John Connor says to the T-850 is: "You're here to kill me?" Then there's the end of the crane chase, where John Connor is shocked to see the T-850 pop out of nowhere to assume control of the truck. He's pushing as far away as he can get from the T-850, even though the T-850 has already said that John Connor must live. These are not the actions of someone who thinks that every Arnold-model Terminator is his best buddy.

But hey, let's take all this at face value. So the brooding, loner John Connor is suddenly needy and codependent in the future? A John Connor that's approaching 50 still needs a daddy figure?! What, did he want his kids to have a robot grandfather? Once again John Connor is depicted as being less mature as an adult than as a child, not to mention stupid. The leader of the Resistance can't tell the difference between a good Terminator and a bad Terminator?! The best troops in the Resistance can't detect a Terminator before it kills their leader?! A lot of stupidity and carelessness is required to get to the point where the T-850 could ever have a chance of killing John Connor. The future John Connor seems stupid enough that maybe he deserves to die.

Those are fair questions and in response I'd say this: Reese's son was a bit of a sissy John. There, I said it. "I order you not to go, I order you not to go!" Shut up you little ***** it's a damn killing machine and it needs to be eliminated. The ORIGINAL John, who smashed the metal mother****ers into junk through sheer unbridled badassery (the one we assumedly see at the beginning of T2) didn't have any weird Uncle Bob attachments because he grew up in the first timeline.

But Reese's sperm replaced that guy with Edward Furlong. And Furlong didn't have the same childhood as original John. Not only did he have different DNA and a different personality but rather than manning up without a dad he instead had this Uncle Bob come into his life that gave him a sentimental attachment to certain machines, (even terminators!) that the original John never had. Skynet used that against him. Original John probably stepped on a stray land mine or died doing something extremely manly in 2032. Furlong John was killed by the face of the "dad" he could never let go of.

 

[a-dev]

Yeah when we get going you sure can't miss an hour.

Some good arguments Khev as to how the events of T3 could still happen. Particularly the point about the original creator of Skynet being restored in that role after the events of T2 - explaining and accounting for the push-back but inevitability of Judgement Day.



Well I'll peruse that link a little more then. Prior to now the main criticisms against T3 as I've understood them have been:

1. Pink sunglasses/talk to da hand
2. No James Cameron
3. No Edward Furlong
4. Weird magical TX powers

And then maybe the weird sexual things she does like the blood orgasm and boob job.

I actually watched the second half of T3 last night to gear up for Genisys (because I decided that it just wasn't fair at ALL to watch it immediately after seeing T1 on the big screen) and ended up going. "Wait, that was actually decent. What sucks so bad about this? And then I watched the entire movie from begininning to end" and concluded that it had some damn cool concepts, characterizations, and action sequences and that those dumb things like the sunglasses actually didn't negate all the good. Especially since IMO you kind of have to be forgiving to T2 for some of those same "cross the line" elements.

We've discussed a bit how dumb it is to keep going back to the "good Arnold" but when I was done watching that film I didn't really come away with the thought that he WAS good. He was a murder bot that fulfilled his mission in the future repurposed to escort them to Judgment Day's front row seats. He "protected" them...temporarily as we know full well that that isn't how his relationship with John will end in 2032 when finally takes him out. It just had enough edge and curveballs to where I actually COULD see a very disgruntled Cameron watching the first Terminator film not directed by him and going..."okay that was actually kind of cool."



Yes it was silly, but still it was just Silberman. He's not some sacred badass of the series or anything. And honestly I think it was kind of a necessary improvisation due to not having Hamilton and losing Furlong to rehab. Without Silberman we would only have had Arnold returning I think that cameo really helped solidify its link to the previous two films. NO ONE from T1-3 appearing in Salvation (digital Arnold doesn't count) just makes that one so easy to ignore, especially since it was so forgettable in its own right.

I thought it was just very forced. It didn't seem plausible to me that he'd be working in the field like that and certainly too coincidental. And it was all for a chuckle moment just as so much of Genisys appears to be - not able to be its own thing, overly dependant on reference to the previous films.

As for the T-850, I don't see how the mention of an off-screen kill gives him an edge. Does that mean if the T2 T-800 had merely been said to have killed someone at some point in the future we could have avoided this whole long-running debate about him being pussified?! ********* Cameron.

 

[YankeesFanboy]

I'd actually go see Genisys. I'm willing to give it at least one shot

Did you see this commercial yet, dev? You can almost taste the failure.



I hope there's a scene in Genissysss when Ah-nuld bites into a bacon double cheeseburger and does the Red Robin Yummm! jingle.

 

[jye4ever]

Khev working hard on cornering DiFabio into another stalemate.

 

[DiFabio]

Except we see what kid John looks like as an adult in T2. He's not dead, he doesn't have Claire from Jurassic Park as his wife, the mother of his children (children?), following him around. He also moves like a cold, cyborg from all the **** he's witnessed unlike the screaming bald guy with the American flag on T3 and shaved head Bateman from Salvation.


I just don't buy that 10 year old, Edward Furlong, this punk ass little kid that was raised to be a military leader . . . was really 13 years old, got to second base with Claire Bruster a day before going to the mall with Mullet kid ANNND grew up to be the T3 Connor who would later be the Christian Bale John Connor.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Khev working hard on cornering DiFabio into another stalemate.

Difabio said **** it. He's now in Italy with Catwoman

edit- He came back

 

[DiFabio]

My timeline changed, I'm not the same DiFabio from 2 hours ago.

 

[YankeesFanboy]

Fabs and Khev debating the intricacies of Terminator reminds me of this...

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

My timeline changed, I'm not the same DiFabio from 2 hours ago.

You came back looking older, wearing pink Elton John Sunglasses, and using late 90's phrases

 

[a-dev]

The whole time travel, alternative timeline head ***kery. Sometimes it makes it really difficult to tell if maybe someone's making a good argument. While in your own arguments you're constantly backtracking and second-guessing yourself. I made so many attempts at replies earlier that I closed tab on because I couldn't even keep track of my own thoughts

This is why I think it ultimately has to come down to - did you personally enjoy the film? Were there few enough annoying moments? Did it feel consistent with the previous films that you consider canon? If the answer is yes to these then you can hopefully find a way to rationalise it all. If the answer is no then you don't even need to try.

Did you see this commercial yet, dev? You can almost taste the failure.



I hope there's a scene in Genissysss when Ah-nuld bites into a bacon double cheeseburger and does the Red Robin Yummm! jingle.

No that's not something that would be aired in Ireland. Also the hypothetical scene you describe sounds alarmingly possible

 

[Khev]

Except we see what kid John looks like as an adult in T2. He's not dead, he doesn't have Claire from Jurassic Park as his wife, the mother of his children (children?), following him around. He also moves like a cold, cyborg from all the **** he's witnessed unlike the screaming bald guy with the American flag on T3 and shaved head Bateman from Salvation.


I just don't buy that 10 year old, Edward Furlong, this punk ass little kid that was raised to be a military leader . . . was really 13 years old, got to second base with Claire Bruster a day before going to the mall with Mullet kid ANNND grew up to be the T3 Connor who would later be the Christian Bale John Connor.

Oh like I'm campaigning to keep Salvation in continuity. Don't bring that **** in here.

Nick Stahl and Edward Furlong play the same John. The whiny kid from the steel mill grows up to be the cheering Nick Stahl on the battlefield. THAT John wasn't the badass at the beginning of T2. He needed the deck stacked in his favor to still be leader of the resistance, you know like having people from the future tell you how everything is going to play out. So he basically cheated because others told him the answers to the test in advance.

Not original John. His badass triumphs became a part of the inevitable unchanging timeline, allowing any replacement Johns to just coast to victory in the afterglow of his singular efforts.

Fabs and Khev debating the intricacies of Terminator reminds me of this...

 

[a-dev]

My timeline changed, I'm not the same DiFabio from 2 hours ago.

Fabs and Khev debating the intricacies of Terminator reminds me of this...

You came back looking older, wearing pink Elton John Sunglasses, and using late 90's phrases

Oh like I'm campaigning to keep Salvation in continuity. Don't bring that **** in here.

Nick Stahl and Edward Furlong play the same John. The whiny kid from the steel mill grows up to be the cheering Nick Stahl on the battlefield. THAT John wasn't the badass at the beginning of T2. He needed the deck stacked in his favor to still be leader of the resistance, you know like having people from the future tell you how everything is going to play out. So he basically cheated because others told him the answers to the test in advance.

Not original John. His badass triumphs became a part of the inevitable unchanging timeline, allowing any replacement Johns to just coast to victory in the afterglow of his singular efforts.

These were all excellent posts gents.

 

[Khev]

This is why I think it ultimately has to come down to - did you personally enjoy the film? Were there few enough annoying moments? Did it feel consistent with the previous films that you consider canon? If the answer is yes to these then you can hopefully find a way to rationalise it all. If the answer is no then you don't even need to try.

Of course you're right, and that's what initially caused me to raise the question. Why do people "hate" T3 to the point of not wanting it to be a part of the trilogy. If you're going to isolate a movie down to its most lame screenshots then yeah, the sunglasses and hand stuff makes for some really stupid memes. But otherwise I don't see what's so offensive about Judgment Day happening. Everyone wants a future war movie but only if that future war gets prevented? Huh? T3 allowed for the continuation of that war that is part of this awesome time loop.

And the action was cool! And different. And it actually had quite a few good lines. John and Katherine are bonding and T-850 says "Your levity is good, it relieves tension and the fear of death." That's pretty freaking funny. Because it's true, and the tactically minded cyborg would want to encourage such behavior but just saying the phrase "fear of death" is such an inherent "levity killer." The timing was perfect, their reactions were spot on. There are a good number of moments like that. I think you guys are writing off a respectable entry in the series.

 

[a-dev]

Of course you're right, and that's what initially caused me to raise the question. Why do people "hate" T3 to the point of not wanting it to be a part of the trilogy. If you're going to isolate a movie down to its most lame screenshots then yeah, the sunglasses and hand stuff makes for some really stupid memes. But otherwise I don't see what's so offensive about Judgment Day happening. Everyone wants a future war movie but only if that future war gets prevented? Huh? T3 allowed for the continuation of that war that is part of this awesome time loop.

Well, a future war movie wouldn't have to be a T2 sequel. It could have been a T1/T2 prequel. So T3 wasn't needed for that.