The Batman (June 25, 2021)

[ZE_501]

There's 0 reality in any capecomic.

Yes, but this is a fun speculation:

Guy would've left DNA all over,

Yes. No way around that. Ubiquitous surveillance would also pose a problem in the Information Age but presumably being a billionaire would help mitigate that problem.

weathered his knees a year in,

Correct training, good genes and biomechanics will go a long way towards staving that off; plus he's rich enough to afford the best of everything in terms of medical, physio, prevention etc. etc.

and gotten his head bashed in after his first serious fight with 10 guys ganging up on him.

I have a bigger problem with the cape than him fighting 10 dudes. How does a normal human fight 10 people? I certainly could not. But I've trained with or been trained by people that can. You would need:

• Superior planning and foresight, pick the time and place of battle. No surprises in their favour. Batman really would have to be a strategic genius and very, very patient.
• Elite level skill: world class fighter in terms of speed, durability and ability to deal punishment. He'd need to be as evasive as Mayweather or Lomachenko with the speed and destructive power of Tyson. Which would also place an expiry date on his peak operational capability. Say 10 years at most, with another 10 at reduced capacity.
• Weapons: to further level the playing field he would need an array of non-lethal gear to confuse, disable and stun multiple assailants.
• Peak training. Bruce Wayne would never actually have time to brood, he'd spend all his time either training or recovering from training, like an elite combat athlete.
• Strategically, Batman would have to be shadowy, hit and run, hard to see. He would never realistically get in a 'warehouse' battle like Snyder had him in, because even an elite combatant would be overwhelmed in that situation, especially given they were trained operatives and not mooks.

This also gives our fictional hero a threshold. Many writers have granted him God Mode but in reality, he has no place in the Justice League other than to bankroll them or as a strategic consultant. His base level activities would be vengeance and fear upon mooks: petty criminals, thugs, abusers, thieves and lowlifes. His absolute upper limit would be to terrorize and take down organized crime, or go head to head with a lone psycho like the Riddler or Joker which would require heavy detective skills and stealth.

He probably wouldn't spend more than ... 10% of his time in the suit.

A hard limit on his operational effectiveness is sleep: you can't be a peak combat athlete without consistent sleep and recovery. So that kind of chucks the idea of 'nightly patrols' out the window...so he's probably gonna have to be kind of psycho if he's going to put the fear of the bat into the criminal underworld, by making such horrific examples of the few that the many think twice. So even a Batman who doesn't kill is going to be a maiming, scarring, child-unfriendly terror.

Just off the top of my head, maybe there are other considerations.

 

[YoNoSe]

I think Prime Clone wants to get nuts.

 

[Dark_Knight_89]

Caught an early screening. Lots of similar plot threads to the Dark Knight Trilogy and even Joker. Probably will be second only to TDK for most fans. (For me it's third after Battfleck and Bale).

Pattinson is a bit like Keaton in that he lacks the physicality.

Interesting! That's the exact opposite of what most reviews have said.

 

[Otomofan]

Maybe by "dark" they don't mean the tone....maybe the picture is simply too dark to tell what the hell is happening onscreen?

Anyway....I'm sure I'll watch it for free when I can. Not sure I have the patience to sit through 3 hours straight in this ADD information age, though.

 

[YoNoSe]

After the Snyder Cut I think I could sit through anything.

 

[Victοr]

Yes, but this is a fun speculation:

Yes. No way around that. Ubiquitous surveillance would also pose a problem in the Information Age but presumably being a billionaire would help mitigate that problem.

Correct training, good genes and biomechanics will go a long way towards staving that off; plus he's rich enough to afford the best of everything in terms of medical, physio, prevention etc. etc.

I have a bigger problem with the cape than him fighting 10 dudes. How does a normal human fight 10 people? I certainly could not. But I've trained with or been trained by people that can. You would need:

• Superior planning and foresight, pick the time and place of battle. No surprises in their favour. Batman really would have to be a strategic genius and very, very patient.
• Elite level skill: world class fighter in terms of speed, durability and ability to deal punishment. He'd need to be as evasive as Mayweather or Lomachenko with the speed and destructive power of Tyson. Which would also place an expiry date on his peak operational capability. Say 10 years at most, with another 10 at reduced capacity.
• Weapons: to further level the playing field he would need an array of non-lethal gear to confuse, disable and stun multiple assailants.
• Peak training. Bruce Wayne would never actually have time to brood, he'd spend all his time either training or recovering from training, like an elite combat athlete.
• Strategically, Batman would have to be shadowy, hit and run, hard to see. He would never realistically get in a 'warehouse' battle like Snyder had him in, because even an elite combatant would be overwhelmed in that situation, especially given they were trained operatives and not mooks.

This also gives our fictional hero a threshold. Many writers have granted him God Mode but in reality, he has no place in the Justice League other than to bankroll them or as a strategic consultant. His base level activities would be vengeance and fear upon mooks: petty criminals, thugs, abusers, thieves and lowlifes. His absolute upper limit would be to terrorize and take down organized crime, or go head to head with a lone psycho like the Riddler or Joker which would require heavy detective skills and stealth.

He probably wouldn't spend more than ... 10% of his time in the suit.

A hard limit on his operational effectiveness is sleep: you can't be a peak combat athlete without consistent sleep and recovery. So that kind of chucks the idea of 'nightly patrols' out the window...so he's probably gonna have to be kind of psycho if he's going to put the fear of the bat into the criminal underworld, by making such horrific examples of the few that the many think twice. So even a Batman who doesn't kill is going to be a maiming, scarring, child-unfriendly terror.

Just off the top of my head, maybe there are other considerations.

These are all good points, but ultimately that's the thing; Batman can be "grounded", meaning rooted in some sort of heightened reality, but he can never be truly realistic. Not even basic cop flicks are realistic. So I just don't get this obsession with it. I still feel it's cope to justify liking capes without admitting it. I like Batman because of the aesthetics. As a concept he's silly. As a character he's either a ******, a loony, or both. Take away the aesthetics and my interest wanes. I don't want silly Silver Age Batman, and I have no problem with edgy gritiness, but I want to see Mr. Freeze done right, a proper Ras and Bane, Azrael and so on. I just don't think a schizo billionaire dressing up as a bat to punch mooks working for animal-styled serial killers is all that deep and has that much to say about humanity to justify the need to make it as "realistic" as possible in the expense of its identity.

But again, that might be a personal pet peeve. I've found that as time goes on I'm more drawn to grand epics in my fiction, as opposed to smaller scale stories. I reserve those for characters dramas or plays or whatnot. It depends on the piece ultimately, but we all have some inclinations. What I'm getting it at is that I'd rather see Morrison's drugged out ramblings about Batman fighting degenerate sex serial killer cabals to summon the AntiChrist while globetrotting and fighting evil clone terrorists, over just taking well known crime films and painting a Bat over them.

I'm still excited to finally see the flick, I'm just dissapointed that they're going with Nolan 2.0: Edge Harder than something more unique.

 

[Wor-Gar]

After the Snyder Cut I think I could sit through anything.

Did you try Dune?

 

[YoNoSe]

Did you try Dune?

You cut deep, Wor.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Another one

View attachment 564832

That's why women should stay in the kitchen critiquing sandwiches.

 

[ZE_501]

These are all good points, but ultimately that's the thing; Batman can be "grounded", meaning rooted in some sort of heightened reality, but he can never be truly realistic. Not even basic cop flicks are realistic. So I just don't get this obsession with it.

I like both ... I think Nolan's -- in spite of moments of greatness -- came off a bit drab because it was so concerned with 'realism' -- I personally enjoy smaller stories with strict limitations as well as things with crazy scope so I can go either way with a superhero tale as long as it's done well, but I guess like many of us have said before ... Batman needs to be treated like magical realism to make that cape work, and then you get the gothic weirdness and can run with it. Burton came close but he didn't make great films, he just made generally great looking films.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Fascinating. But who ranked these?

I expected this to be below TDK... but not Lego.

Also, is TDKR really the next great Batman movie?

 

[greygoose]

TDKR above BB?!

 

[Dark_Knight_89]

I think they are just the RT scores

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

The Batman has an 87% RT with only 183 reviews.

To put it in perspective, Endgame has a 94% with 549 reviews. The more "critics" you have, the more difficult it becomes for a film to get a high score.

It's amazing how Marvel can poop out just about anything and receives a great reception from critics despite there being more "critics" now than ever before scrutinizing movies.

I wonder how many critics there were when JAWS or Star Wars came out? Now EVERYONE online has a voice, and the scary part is that it can "count" as a legitimate review.

 

[Victοr]

I like both ...

Sure, I like both and everything in between too. It depends on the genre, the medium, the execution, a ton of things. For example I greatly enjoy one location films. But it all just has to come together and work. There's no genre that will instantly pull me in, no matter what. I'm not one of those people who love something so much they can enjoy it even if it's awful. But I do have a special fondness for epics, so when they work, they hit me hard.

I think Nolan's -- in spite of moments of greatness -- came off a bit drab because it was so concerned with 'realism' --

I've always felt that. I'll be honest, I've got a BaleBat on PO but it's mostly because I like Bale as an actor and want to have him and Joker in my shelf. But I wasn't in love with those versions, and I never went through that phase of being an Uber-NolanBat-Fanboy. I was frequenting a lot of comic book forums at that time, and Post-TDK Batman was every normie's favourite, so the influx of memes and sheer BatGod wanking turned me off the character in a big way. It was the Arkham games that kept me engaged. And I guess I was kinda intrigued by the New52. But point is, NolanBat certainly left a lot to be desired, and it gets even more ridiculous when you start to think about this "realistic" world having a manchild billionaire run around in a costume.

I personally enjoy smaller stories with strict limitations as well as things with crazy scope so I can go either way with a superhero tale as long as it's done well, but I guess like many of us have said before ...

For capes specifically, I've never been much for the classic "superhero stops robbers" type of thing. I've mentioned it before, but it's why I no longer care for Spider-Man. His world and M.O. just bore me to tears. I still like the powers and costume, and maintain some nostalgia, but you won't see me putting him anywhere near my Top 10. I just can't bring myself to enjoy something so basic and empty, devoid of any uniqueness. And it's why I don't care about street-levelers or any of that. Espionage stuf... eh. I like political dramas in movies, but in comics I just like Nick Fury because he's Bond on steroids. Widow, Winter Soldier, Cap, all that jazz, they're of a period of my life that I don't much care for. I read them, but I don't think about them. I'll never get the dollies or the omnis. Fury, maybe, and that's it. Batman I still have some attachment too because, like I've said before, he's got the aesthetics.

For capes and genre comics, I tend to favour Supernatural & Cosmic stuff. The reason is because comics are essentially dumbed down books with pretty pictures. Which means that there's no budget or real limitations, at least not in the way there are with movies and videogames. So they can really go all out on those genres and deliver some spectacular scope. And that caters to some of my specific wants, so I tend to be a bit more favourable to them in general.

Honestly, it's why I still enjoy X-Men, despite finding everyone to be a hypocritical ****. They blend every genre together, and can do both character pieces and large scopes. At its core it's a YA/Sci-Fi/Horror/etc kind of book, instead of a typical cape one, so it does things other ensemble pieces can't. I've never read an Avengers or JL comic and gotten the same feels and vibes as even an average X-Book. I still think the metaphor is moronic, but the X-Books have that extra touch; they just need someone to truly get them the way they were meant to be.

Batman needs to be treated like magical realism to make that cape work, and then you get the gothic weirdness and can run with it. Burton came close but he didn't make great films, he just made generally great looking films.

Exactly. Batman needs to be dark and brooding with some sunlight coming through, but he needs to stop pretending to be a loony starring in Se7en and just embrace the weirdness. It's hilarious to me that I'm supposed to take him seriously the more "realistic" he is, when it's literally a billionaire dressing up because mummy & daddy died 20 years ago, and he just goes out to punch mooks. Because in a realistic setting, he's fighting mooks and schizos. Batman as a concept can say a thing or two about the human condition, even if he can't touch on any other, grander, sociopolitical themes. But the moment you rob him of the fantastical aspects, he goes from a modern fable with a moral, to a caricature.

I've said it before, I'll say it again; just how ******* hard is it to make live action Arkham?

 

[Wor-Gar]

As a billionaire, there's a lot of other ways Bruce could "thwart" criminals in Gotham besides dressing up as a Bat. But then he'd be boring I guess.

Anyway, he's just a Zorro knock-off with a kooky gimmick.

 

[Prime Clone]

Interesting! That's the exact opposite of what most reviews have said.

Maybe I should have said "physique". The action is there but he's very slight.

Oh, and as expected there's a distinct Year One vibe - and a Year Two Easter egg!

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

As a billionaire, there's a lot of other ways Bruce could "thwart" criminals in Gotham besides dressing up as a Bat. But then he'd be boring I guess.

Anyway, he's just a Zorro knock-off with a kooky gimmick.

Zorro needs a Joker. Mexican Joker

 

[Victοr]

As a billionaire, there's a lot of other ways Bruce could "thwart" criminals in Gotham besides dressing up as a Bat. But then he'd be boring I guess.

Anyway, he's just a Zorro knock-off with a kooky gimmick.

And therein lies the problem. If you make it all so realistic that the only "villains" are wacky serial killers, then Batman stands out completely, and Bruce Wayne comes off as legitimately fit for the looney bin. You can't make any sort of serious commentary with such a badly structured premise. However, if you keep the magical realism where Gotham is basically cursed by Hell itself, and is populated by villains that exceed normalcy, then sure, Batman has a role and can be used to tell a story. You can't do "realistic" Batman and "dark" Batman.

Zorro needs a Joker. Mexican Joker

"Then, still in darkness, silence, and urgent haste, her body was flayed, and a naked priest, a 'very strong man, very powerful, very tall', struggled into the wet skin, with its slack breasts and pouched genitalia: a double nakedness of layered, ambiguous sexuality. The skin of one thigh was reserved to be fashioned into a face-mask for the man impersonating Centeotl, Young Lord Maize Cob, the son of Toci".

And then of course BatBrain refuses to kill him, maim him beyond repair or at least lock him in the Batcave under his own supervision. Where's Moon Schizo when you need him?