The Book Of Boba Fett (December 2021)

[Mondragon]

Yep. If the ROTJ climax was supposed to have made Luke impervious to fear and

More invention by you.
His fear of dying and losing those he loved was a real as anyone's.
He wasn't impervious to fear, nobody but you said he was.
He was aware it was a part of him, and didn't deny it (thus it no longer controlled his actions, but obeyed his commands (sound familiar?).
Meaning he recognized he had free will (not a *slave not a *machine) he had CHOICE to surrender to it or not.
That choice is what he was aware of, and drove his actions.

That doesn't make him a god that makes him a human.

How do you not get that?
How are there supposed Star Wars fans who do not get that?

 

[Bravomite]

With TLJ Luke it wasn’t the act of turning on his lightsaber that ruined it for me, I can buy that (but I don’t like it). It was his decision after that of giving up and going off to the most unfindable place in the galaxy to die reading old Jedi texts … page turners they are not. He makes a mess of things and rather than try and put it right or help he just ups and runs which makes it even worse. That’s where he became Jake to me and stopped behaving like the character I’ve known for most of my life. He gives up on not only his student but his nephew too, turns his back on his entire family because of what a vision. Luke knows that visions only show what might come to pass but the future is uncertain - he fell for the very same mistake as Anakin which sucks because Luke is better than Anakin they are not the same character.

 

[Stront]

You guys see the Vintage Collections Toys for Boba and Fennec from this? They look pretty damn good, may have to get some new lil SW toys after all these years. Haven’t got one since the mail away Phantom Menace toys lol

Also, even tho I’m not as learned on this stuff as you guys, I’m absolutely loving reading all your breakdowns and stuff. This is how I am with Michael Mann movies

 

[Mondragon]

.Luke knows that visions only show what might come to pass but the future is uncertain - he fell for the very same mistake as Anakin

Not only that, he's supposedly fell for the same mistake he himself made in the tree cave again, striking it down makes it stronger, and you become it.
TLJ regressed him to still learning the same lessons he'd already understood.
ROTJ showed that vision wan't immutable, Luke knew it didn't define him, untimely his learned choices and actions would.
The sequels had him learn nothing from his own experiences,

And from a character defined by follow his own path, disregarding almost all their advice to find his own way, and choice. They made him suddenly a caricature pathetic slave to Jedi books and dogma, he never once followed.

 

[matticus]

Well Anakin did everything he did because he was "being protective of Padme." It still doesn't justify going full Sith psycho now does it?

He was already a whiny b**** cause he wasn't a Jedi Master. That fueled the fire and Padme was the cherry on top. Palpatine took a lot of time to groom Anakin before that to develop a rapport. But his Sith turn didn't feel logical and was too quick. I feel like killing the younglins went too far and that really should have been left to the clones in the movie. I think that would have been a turn back to the light side when he looked at their faces.

 

[ajp4mgs]

More invention by you.
His fear of dying and losing those he loved was a real as anyone's.
He wasn't impervious to fear, nobody but you said he was.
He was aware it was a part of him, and didn't deny it (thus it no longer controlled his actions, but obeyed his commands (sound familiar?).
Meaning he recognized he had free will (not a *slave not a *machine) he had CHOICE to surrender to it or not.
That choice is what he was aware of, and drove his actions.

That doesn't make him a god that makes him a human.

How do you not get that?
How are there supposed Star Wars fans who do not get that?

Well, since you asked, here's why I "do not get that." Luke had never seemed resigned to destiny as far as I could tell, so I find it misguided to characterize what he learned in the climax of ROTJ being that he had a choice. In fact, he kept insisting to both Obi-Wan and Yoda all along that he had a choice and wouldn't fall to the dark side. What he needed to learn was exactly which choice was the *right* one.

Free will is what made him leave Dagobah before his training was complete, against the advise of Yoda. It did nothing to save Han, it cost him his hand, and left him exposed to being drawn away from the light by his father before he was properly trained to resist the dark side. He made a choice, and was aware of his agency to do so.

Same thing with the tree cave. Luke had free will to be the first to ignite his saber. Free will to take the fight to Vader. He let fear get the best of him, and acted aggressively in impulse... by choice. A choice that the Force showed him was wrong, and Yoda reinforced as being wrong by calling it his *failure* at the cave.

Lucas crystallized the theme by not only having Luke stop his assault on Vader, but by having him toss the weapon and leave himself at the mercy of someone he knew could use the Force to destroy him. And when he was being burned extra crispy, Luke cried out to his father. Essentially: "I made a choice, and it's costing me my life. Help me... please!" Then Vader made a choice, and died instead of his son.

I don't see Luke's lesson being about discovering his free will. Luke's lesson was to finally heed what Yoda had taught him, and no matter how noble his aggression may seem, to *let go* of it. He literally put himself at the mercy of *fate* in that moment.

He surrendered himself to inaction rather than be an agent of aggression. This doesn't mean that his natural impulse wouldn't tempt him to be aggressive ever again, but that he'd measure himself by how effectively he could suppress aggression in favor of something more virtuous and selfless. His exile as explained in TLJ os evidence of Luke trying to do that again, but getting his responsibilities and decision-making twisted by guilt. That guilt is something OT Luke had to deal with only in less direct ways; in ways he was less personally responsible for.

But thanks for the "supposed fan" crack. Classy.

 

[ajp4mgs]

With TLJ Luke it wasn’t the act of turning on his lightsaber that ruined it for me, I can buy that (but I don’t like it). It was his decision after that of giving up and going off to the most unfindable place in the galaxy to die reading old Jedi texts … page turners they are not. He makes a mess of things and rather than try and put it right or help he just ups and runs which makes it even worse. That’s where he became Jake to me and stopped behaving like the character I’ve known for most of my life. He gives up on not only his student but his nephew too, turns his back on his entire family because of what a vision. Luke knows that visions only show what might come to pass but the future is uncertain - he fell for the very same mistake as Anakin which sucks because Luke is better than Anakin they are not the same character.

If only I could convince you that while Luke's visions of the future may or may not come to be, the fact is that Ben had been corrupted and turned, and that was already a reality.

Luke didn't give up on Ben/Kylo at the end of TLJ anyway. He told him he'd always be with him, just like his father. That shows that Luke was aware of Ben's conflict, and was haunted by his murder of Han. But Luke was as powerless to be the one to turn Kylo as Kenobi was to turn Vader. Each Jedi was the object of their pupil's rage. It would take someone/something else.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

Mary Sue Rey sucks, the Sequel Trilogy sucks, The End.

 

[Khev]

You guys see the Vintage Collections Toys for Boba and Fennec from this? They look pretty damn good, may have to get some new lil SW toys after all these years. Haven’t got one since the mail away Phantom Menace toys lol

I think they look great though I'm disappointed that Fett is coming in that stupid box and not in a classic bubble on card.

Also, even tho I’m not as learned on this stuff as you guys, I’m absolutely loving reading all your breakdowns and stuff. This is how I am with Michael Mann movies

 

[Mondragon]

Had some dinner, and a drink, here we go.

Well, since you asked, here's why I "do not get that." Luke had never seemed resigned to destiny as far as I could tell, so I find it misguided to characterize what he learned in the climax of ROTJ being that he had a choice.

It's the fact that he had choice (free-will) and expressed it, means it wasn't pre-destined. You, got it backward.

In fact, he kept insisting to both Obi-Wan and Yoda all along that he had a choice and wouldn't fall to the dark side. What he needed to learn was exactly which choice was the *right* one.

And from everything he learned and experienced, his choice was switching off his saber. This was his learned choice, to not kill his father in anger and fear.

Free will is what made him leave Dagobah before his training was complete, against the advise of Yoda. It did nothing to save Han, it cost him his hand, and left him exposed to being drawn away from the light by his father before he was properly trained to resist the dark side. He made a choice, and was aware of his agency to do so.

Free will is what drove him, never Jedi dogma, not you must complete your training, which he ignored, you must kill your own father, which he ignored, For better and worse (Luke made lots of mistakes), yet Luke followed his own path and choices, not a slave to Jedi Dogma, or text.
Beautiful character.

Same thing with the tree cave. Luke had free will to be the first to ignite his saber. Free will to take the fight to Vader. He let fear get the best of him, and acted aggressively in impulse... by choice. A choice that the Force showed him was wrong, and Yoda reinforced as being wrong by calling it his *failure* at the cave.

Yep, he's a wonderfully flawed character, who learns, and moves forward We see it, we see him grow and transform.
And through his actions transforms others.
Epic tale!
His next was to pass that on.

Lucas crystallized the theme by not only having Luke stop his assault on Vader, but by having him toss the weapon and leave himself at the mercy of someone he knew could use the Force to destroy him. And when he was being burned extra crispy, Luke cried out to his father. Essentially: "I made a choice, and it's costing me my life. Help me... please!" Then Vader made a choice, and died instead of his son.

Yep Luke express his free will CHOICE, by switching off his saber, this incredible action inspires his father to no longer be a slave or machine, but to exercise his free will, his choice.
The whole scene is simple yet powerful expression of free will over servitude.
TLJ regresses Luke to a coward and slave to fear, betrays everything the character learned and experienced.

I don't see Luke's lesson being about discovering his free will. Luke's lesson was to finally heed what Yoda had taught him, and no matter how noble his aggression may seem, to *let go* of it. He literally put himself at the mercy of *fate* in that moment.

No, by his actions he showed his father he had a choice.
That nobody was programmed or a slave to fear or fate.
Anakin is first a physical slave, a machine slave, and a spiritual slave, Luke by his actions shows him he has choice, despite all he fears.

He surrendered himself to inaction

No, his action is what saved him, and his father. (see above)

....why I "do not get that."

Not surprising, we have an absolutely different vision of the character.
You need to deny Luke's learned choice, actions, and experience, essentially denying everything the character was, to justify his take in TLJ.

Also worth repeating...

I don't have a problem with you liking the sequels, (and I like all the new lead characters, I jumped out of my seat and cheered when the saber flew into Rey's hands) but if you are arguing it was some progressive forward moving take on Luke's character, I call BS.

 

[Khev]

He was already a whiny b**** cause he wasn't a Jedi Master. That fueled the fire and Padme was the cherry on top. Palpatine took a lot of time to groom Anakin before that to develop a rapport. But his Sith turn didn't feel logical and was too quick. I feel like killing the younglins went too far and that really should have been left to the clones in the movie. I think that would have been a turn back to the light side when he looked at their faces.

But seriously though you must know that Luke's violent barrage on Vader at the end ROTJ was him giving in to fear, anger, hate and all the things that Palpatine was hoping he'd embrace right? I mean the movie made it pretty clear with him looking down at Vader and then his own mechanical hand in horror.

Yes the desire to protect his sister was what set him off but his reaction was very, very wrong and went against all of his Jedi teachings on a level like never before.

Whereas in TLJ he saw the future unfolding where not just Leia but Leia, Han, all of his pupils, the New Republic, innocent people across the galaxy, and so on were being destroyed and yet when those same fears tempted him his reaction was barely a fraction of what he did in ROTJ because he was so much more enlightened and so much more in control.

 

[Khev]

If only I could convince you that while Luke's visions of the future may or may not come to be, the fact is that Ben had been corrupted and turned, and that was already a reality.

Luke didn't give up on Ben/Kylo at the end of TLJ anyway. He told him he'd always be with him, just like his father. That shows that Luke was aware of Ben's conflict, and was haunted by his murder of Han. But Luke was as powerless to be the one to turn Kylo as Kenobi was to turn Vader. Each Jedi was the object of their pupil's rage. It would take someone/something else.

Such great stuff as always.

Yep how Luke handled Kylo in TLJ was even better than how Obi-Wan handled Vader in ANH. The reason being that at no point in the Luke/Kylo duel did Luke ever make a single tangible attack and his nephew would have fully realized that after the fact. "Are you here to save my soul?" "No." Now when Luke first says that you're inclined to think "aw yeah he's gonna take him out." But as he hinted with Leia "no one is ever really gone" he still had hope for Ben and was playing the long game.

He was kind of the opposite of Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins when fighting Ducard at the end. "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you either." But with Luke it was basically "I'm not here to save you, but I'm not going to destroy you either." As you said Luke knew that he wasn't capable of saving his nephew directly but he could be a catalyst for his eventual salvation at the end. Great stuff.

 

[matticus]

But seriously though you must know that Luke's violent barrage on Vader at the end ROTJ was him giving in to fear, anger, hate and all the things that Palpatine was hoping he'd embrace right? I mean the movie made it pretty clear with him looking down at Vader and then his own mechanical hand in horror.

Yes the desire to protect his sister was what set him off but his reaction was very, very wrong and went against all of his Jedi teachings on a level like never before.

Whereas in TLJ he saw the future unfolding where not just Leia but Leia, Han, all of his pupils, the New Republic, innocent people across the galaxy, and so on were being destroyed and yet when those same fears tempted him his reaction was barely a fraction of what he did in ROTJ because he was so much more enlightened and so much more in control.

But with the final blow, he could have went for the head or the body, but he went for the hand. He went for the weapon while giving into anger. Plus, he still did not have much training at this point. It was momentary, not catastrophic and never looking back like Anakin.

In TLJ, Luke just seen the future of Ruin Johnson's script and was like eff it, I'm not going to care. Luke would never bail out on his sister, his pupils. How would Kylo that young really destroy a whole Jedi Academy? Then wouldn't Luke turn to the dark side and go kill Kylo? If he was willing to kill Kylo before he was Sith, why not really go after him after he killed your whole academy? I'm not one to go to a SW movie to see everyone be a failure except The Chosen of The Chosen Ones, The Greatest Jedi of All-Time Rey Rey McSkywanker and her band of Not Accomplishing a Damn Thing Throughout The Entire Movie, Diverse Though, Supporting Cast.

Even Luke's I am a Moonwalker and sliding around, ducking Kylo's lightsaber was insulting. The best trump card I can use in this argument is the man himself, Mark Hamill, absolutely destroying Johnson AND Abrams approach to Luke and the Legacy characters in many interviews. There are many YT vids of him dropping some knowledge of which Abrams, Johnson and Kennedy have zero of.

 

[Mondragon]

But seriously though you must know that Luke's violent barrage on Vader at the end ROTJ was him giving in to fear....

Whereas in TLJ ....

So essentially both of your shticks are to deny Luke's actual final choice and actions, in ROTJ switching off the saber as a learned transformative experience.
You can't acknowledge this was a learned (by his own experience) choice, and expression of his free will , cause to do that you know his regressive action in the TLJ, betrays that choice and action, betrays everything Luke learned and was.

One of you just constantly needs to regresses and frame him in permanent attack mode, before he made the choice to switch off his saber.

The other just denies switching off his saber was even an "action" in itself, an informed choice of free will.

I don't have a problem with you liking the sequels, (and I like all the new lead characters, I jumped out of my seat and cheered when the saber flew into Rey's hands) but if you are arguing it was some progressive forward moving take on Luke's character, I call BS.

 

[ZE_501]

I have been wondering this for decades.

Star Wars seems destined to simply regurgitate itself into oblivion.

Part of it is accountants, fans who want nostalgia, and hack writers.

But if Star Wars is truly mythic ... then maybe you just can't expand the pantheon. There were 14 Olympians and that's what we were stuck with. I think they had better writers though ...

 

[ajp4mgs]

Such great stuff as always.

Yep he he handled Kylo in TLJ even better than Obi-Wan handled Vader. The reason being that at no point in the Luke/Kylo duel did Luke ever make a single tangible attack and his nephew would have fully realized that after the fact. "Are you here to save my soul?" "No." Now when Luke first says that you're inclined to think "aw yeah he's gonna take him out." But as he hinted with Leia "no one is ever really gone" he still had hope for Ben and was playing the long game.

He was kind of the opposite of Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins when fighting Ducard at the end. "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you either." But with Luke it was basically "I'm not here to save you, but I'm not going to destroy you either." As you said Luke knew that he wasn't capable of saving his nephew directly but he could be a catalyst for his eventual salvation at the end. Great stuff.

And it might seem like a minor thing, but is a detail I was greatly relieved by, and that's the fact that Luke wasn't the first to ignite his saber. In every OT duel, the first to do so (thereby technically being the aggressor) was the one who needed to be humbled and learn something.

In ANH, it was Vader. And he ended up outsmarted by Kenobi in allowing his old master to become "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" and guide Luke that way.

In the ESB cave scene, it was Luke drawing first, and was taught a symbolic lesson about that by the Force. And then on Bespin, Luke again, ultimately humbled and learned he had been attacking his father.

In ROTJ, Luke again striking (at the Emperor) in anger, much to the Emperor's delight. He started crossing the line that he'd been warned about and caught himself just in time.

In TLJ, it was Kylo. Luke ignited his metaphoric saber only in a posture of defense after his opponent had signaled combat. Sure, it's an obvious detail, but one which could've been overlooked. And that would contradict everything conveyed by Yoda's lessons. So . . . pfew!

 

[ajp4mgs]

The other just denies switching off his saber was even an "action" in itself, an informed choice of free will.

What!? Of course switching off the saber was an act of free will. With all due respect, you're either intentionally mischaracterizing what I say, thinking I'm too stupid to correct it, or you're just getting things mixed up.

Luke was *always* fully aware of his free will. Everything he did in the OT could be seen as a willful act of independent defiance. From destroying the authority's Death Star, to leaving Yoda when told not to, to attempting to kill the emperor of the galaxy.

What I said was that his act of throwing down his weapon was not some newfound discovery of this free will. He was very in-tune with it throughout each episode. It was the discovery of *which* choice he should've been making all along that was his lesson. Namely, it was the choice not to be an aggressor anymore, thereby leaving his life or death to be decided by others. That's the "leaving himself to fate" I cited.

So, unless you're going to argue that Luke was mind-controlling either Vader or Palpatine, you'll have to concede that his survival was out of his hands. He essentially left that choice to Vader. And I'm not interested in a game of semantics about whether that's technically "resigned to fate" or not.

Again, loud and clear: what makes Luke (and every hero) a symbol of inspiration is *making choices* that are selfless and/or heroic. Yes, it's free will to throw his saber down. But he also surrendered his fate (figure of speech, if you prefer) to someone else's choice in doing so. It was up to Vader now whether Luke lives or dies, because Luke had abandoned aggression in dealing with either of the two Sith. That should be clear (and irrefutable) enough that we can now get back to discussing Boba being fat.

 

[Khev]

And it might seem like a minor thing, but is a detail I was greatly relieved by, and that's the fact that Luke wasn't the first to ignite his saber. In every OT duel, the first to do so (thereby technically being the aggressor) was the one who needed to be humbled and learn something.

In ANH, it was Vader. And he ended up outsmarted by Kenobi in allowing his old master to become "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" and guide Luke that way.

In the ESB cave scene, it was Luke drawing first, and was taught a symbolic lesson about that by the Force. And then on Bespin, Luke again, ultimately humbled and learned he had been attacking his father.

In ROTJ, Luke again striking (at the Emperor) in anger, much to the Emperor's delight. He started crossing the line that he'd been warned about and caught himself just in time.

In TLJ, it was Kylo. Luke ignited his metaphoric saber only in a posture of defense after his opponent had signaled combat. Sure, it's an obvious detail, but one which could've been overlooked. And that would contradict everything conveyed by Yoda's lessons. So . . . pfew!

Agreed 100% on who ignites their saber first. It was something that me and my film geek buddies noticed and discussed about the OT decades ago so I was very pleased to see that theme continue in the ST. In addition to TLJ you see it in TFA too (Kylo first ignites on Starkiller Base, is humbled by Rey,) TROS (Rey ignites first on the DSII, gets her *** handed to her until Leia ends the fight), even at various times in the PT (Jedi Masters who ignite on Palpatine lose, Dooku ignites on Yoda and has to cheat by pulling down the column and fleeing, Yoda ignites on Palpatine but can't win and flees into exile.)

 

[Mondragon]

You made it semantics
Again recognizing the duality of what they are (his and his fathers own innate fear, aggression, as well as the good he still saw in him), it's Luke's choice, willing-action to not let one side control him, and thus NOT kill his father, that allowed for and showed his father he still had choice.
So how is this moment not about free will and freedom to choose.

While challenged, that was always Lukes instinct. To allow for his father an opportunity to choose. Despite everything he had been told, Luke still followed his own instinct to see that through.
That instinct, Luke's action and choice, willingly taking Sidious' attack, allowing Anakin the moment to make his own choice, saved his father, from being a slave, physically and spiritually.
Anakin even tells him so.

Hence Luke through his own instincts, choice and actions, not following the old Jedi, dogma, not surrendering to the Sith, brings the epic new transformative experience for himself and those he loves "The Return of the Jedi!" What Luke has learned, is aware of, he can now impart to his sister and the next gen.

In TLJ, it was Kylo. Luke ignited his metaphoric saber only in a posture of defense after his opponent had signaled combat.

So what does Disney's Luke do with that instinct, knowledge and experience of how he can save and transform others? Knowing from learned experience, that anyone can be swayed and caries a dual nature, knowing that everyone has and can make a choice if allowed, knowing that visions or prophesies are not immutable or a predestined "fate" for anyone, knowing attacking in fear feeds it, makes it stronger, ... he does the reverse of everything he learned, he surrenders to it. ...he lights his real (nothing metaphoric about the aggression) saber in an act of fear and aggression, against Kylo who was sleeping.
Betraying all his own instinct, and everything he had learned and knew. And pushing and dooming the inexperienced Kylo to react accordingly.

This portrayal and action was such an absolute betrayal of all Luke's progress, momentum, known instinct and learned experience, it's irreconcilable as the same character, or as a forward "evolution" of the character.
It's not new, more complex, or interesting, It's actually regressive.
Unless you deny (which makes it a different character) all Luke's instincts, learned experience and choices, which not surprisingly you've been trying to do for pages now.
It's all you got, you literally have to deny what the character was aware of, had learned and become.

Hamill who plays the character knew this was a betrayal of the character, so much that in promoting the film, he was sadly uneasy about it.

I don't have a problem with you liking the sequels, (and I like all the new lead characters, I jumped out of my seat and cheered when the saber flew into Rey's hands) but if you are arguing it was some progressive forward moving take on Luke's character, I call BS.

And yes Boba is Fatter! yet his character is not a betrayal of where he might be at this stage in his life if he survived.

 

[Khev]

All this talk of TLJ exactly four years to the day it was released.