The Dark Knight Rises *SPOILERS*

[Khev]

I wonder if in 20 years Nolan will pull a Lucas/Spielberg and rename the first movie "The Dark Knight Begins" to sync up with the other two titles.

 

[DiFabio]

I wonder if in 20 years Nolan will pull a Lucas/Spielberg and rename the first movie "The Dark Knight Begins" to sync up with the other two titles.

I thought about that when TDKR was announced. Especially considering that the films are labeled as part of a "Dark Knight Trilogy" as opposed to just being "Batman Begins", "The Dark Knight" and "The Dark Knight Rises".


2032 ULTIMATE BLU RAY EDITION DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY SET

- The Dark Knight Begins

- The Dark Knight Falls

- The Dark Knight Rises

I think your missing the point...

A well made fan trailer using VO work from Presitge inspired art. Three acts of a magic trick, pledge, turn, prestige. Now people tie them to Batman films because there are now three films, stories that the same director made.

 

[TheProcrastinator]

The "self-serious" label comes from the fact that Nolan is so averse to the "comic book-y" elements and so stubbornly adamant that the films be "grounded in reality". Hell, he even had to be convinced to have Scarecrow wear a god damn mask. It's as if he thinks that stuff is beneath him and his films. Too "childish". He probably thinks THE AVENGERS is a joke.

I get and actually applaud the idea to ground these films in at least some reality. But Nolan does go a bit too far. Afterall, the entire conceit of the character itself is complete fantasy anyway. Embrace it.

And, no, I don't think the Nolan films are bad. To the contrary, they're really damn good. But they're just not quintessential Batman.

But that's not a sign of self-seriousness, just preference in stylisation. Couse that's what it really is in the end. The whole "grounded in reality" look is the same type of visual stylisation, that Burton's pseudo-gothic was. If Nolan prefers the more serious approach, then he's not the only one. Many people see the the comic genre as a light fun at best, unbearable "watch and forget" bull****, at worst.

Even when Burton released his Batman flicks, comic-book fans were whining about the changes made to the story and how there's more Burton than Batman in those films. But the rest of the moviegoing world either shrugged, or actually thought that Burton films were better for it, and a more interesting take on the character. Burton also didn't care for the source material, or the graphic novels as a whole. He was simply fascinated by the archtype of Batman character, the same as Nolan.

I am not saying that You can't show a good story in a comic-book convention. It's just that choosing a visual style that is more down to earth and not as cartoony, is simply a matter of stylistic preference, not a sign of being self-serious.

It's simply a matter of choosing elements of the source material, that you as a filmmaker, think will work best for Your story. Just becouse someone dislikes superhero camp and kitsch, doesn't make him pretentious. It's simply choosing a style that is closer to your preferences.

Also, the whole "why make a Batman film then?" argument, can be thrown out of the window, as Batman has long since transcended the boundries of the source material. The character is a powerful archtype, that people can find fascianting and compelling, without subscribing to comic-book baggage.

As for Wayne giving up for a girl. It wasn't all about Rachel. It was the whole drama of TDK, the results of his actions and his general questionable mental status, that finally caught up to him. Batman always was a brooding, troubled, crazy bastard. I really like the concept of him giving up the cowl, to haunt the corridors of Wayne Manor in solitiude, like a crazy person. It fit's the character in a way. Beside's it was only temporary.

 

[intothevoid]

Lots of cool gifs here:
https://****yeahthedarkknightrises.tumblr.com/archive

I think your missing the point...

Yeah

The ideas behind Batman films crossover to an infinite number of things, that's why the character is so popular - people can relate in one way or another

There is no such thing as Batman being purely about Batman - the characters themselves were inspired by ideas outside of Batman, the stories in the comics have parallels to real life stories and ideas, so for the films to borrow ideas from other films or stories isn't surprising nor does it make the films less about Batman. For example, Bruce Wayne is a recluse in many interpretations of the character, Howard Hughes isnt a bad reference point for that. A tale of two cities is about war, revolution and the different sides of society... Perfectly good reference for Gotham in a state of upheaval

 

[intothevoid]

A well made fan trailer using VO work from Presitge inspired art. Three acts of a magic trick, pledge, turn, prestige. Now people tie them to Batman films because there are now three films, stories.

No they tie them because the narrative structure matches up quite well.
Even the 3 acts of TDKR matches that structure, as does the three parts of Act 3 of TDKR

It's nothing new that Nolans films all have the same ideas running through them

 

[jye4ever]

But that's not a sign of self-seriousness, just preference in stylisation. Couse that's what it really is in the end. The whole "grounded in reality" look is the same type of visual stylisation, that Burton's pseudo-gothic was. If Nolan prefers the more serious approach, then he's not the only one. Many people see the the comic genre as a light fun at best, unbearable "watch and forget" bull****, at worst.

Even when Burton released his Batman flicks, comic-book fans were whining about the changes made to the story and how there's more Burton than Batman in those films. But the rest of the moviegoing world either shrugged, or actually thought that Burton films were better for it, and a more interesting take on the character. Burton also didn't care for the source material, or the graphic novels as a whole. He was simply fascinated by the archtype of Batman character, the same as Nolan.

I am not saying that You can't show a good story in a comic-book convention. It's just that choosing a visual style that is more down to earth and not as cartoony, is simply a matter of stylistic preference, not a sign of being self-serious.

It's simply a matter of choosing elements of the source material, that you as a filmmaker, think will work best for Your story. Just becouse someone dislikes superhero camp and kitsch, doesn't make him pretentious. It's simply choosing a style that is closer to your preferences.

Also, the whole "why make a Batman film then?" argument, can be thrown out of the window, as Batman has long since transcended the boundries of the source material. The character is a powerful archtype, that people can find fascianting and compelling, without subscribing to comic-book baggage.

As for Wayne giving up for a girl. It wasn't all about Rachel. It was the whole drama of TDK, the results of his actions and his general questionable mental status, that finally caught up to him. Batman always was a brooding, troubled, crazy bastard. I really like the concept of him giving up the cowl, to haunt the corridors of Wayne Manor in solitiude, like a crazy person. It fit's the character in a way. Beside's it was only temporary.

Not bad, not bad at all.

Yeah

The ideas behind Batman films crossover to an infinite number of things, that's why the character is so popular - people can relate in one way or another

There is no such thing as Batman being purely about Batman - the characters themselves were inspired by ideas outside of Batman, the stories in the comics have parallels to real life stories and ideas, so for the films to borrow ideas from other films or stories isn't surprising nor does it make the films less about Batman. For example, Bruce Wayne is a recluse in many interpretations of the character, Howard Hughes isnt a bad reference point for that. A tale of two cities is about war, revolution and the different sides of society... Perfectly good reference for Gotham in a state of upheaval

Not bad, not bad at all.

 

[TheProcrastinator]

A well made fan trailer using VO work from Presitge inspired art. Three acts of a magic trick, pledge, turn, prestige. Now people tie them to Batman films because there are now three films, stories.

But the whole "Begins, Falls, Rises" has nothing to do with Prestige, even if those particular gifs were really inspired by that movie. Begins, Falls, Rises and all the rest of the trilogy themes, that are thrown around so often, are all archetypical story concepts that fit Batman, or any other character for that matter. There are no connections to Prestige to be drawn here. Especially, since Nolan Bat-films, share none of the structural themes of his other movies. Begins, Falls, Rises - a classical, three-act of a story. I see no reason to draw connections with Prestige's "Pledge, Act, Turn", just becouse it's also a party of three .

 

[DiFabio]

No they tie them because the narrative structure matches up quite well.
Even the 3 acts of TDKR matches that structure, as does the three parts of Act 3 of TDKR

It's nothing new that Nolans films all have the same ideas running through them

Seems forced to me.

I'd say the theme of obsession is more evident in all of Nolan's films than anything else. Memento, Insomnia, etc. all have characters grappling with obsession. That's one of Batman's main characteristics.

Like I said, it was a nice fan trailer. It was was well done and cool to see during the hype for TDKR. Now though, it's just sort of annoys me that fans have clinged onto it in such a way.



NOLAN NOLAN NOLAN PRESTIGE THREE FILMS THREE ACTS OF A MAGIC TRICK

But the whole "Begins, Falls, Rises" has nothing to do with Prestige, even if those particular gifs were really inspired by that movie. Begins, Falls, Rises and all the rest of the trilogy themes, that are thrown around so often, are all archetypical story concepts that fit Batman, or any other character for that matter. There are no connections to Prestige to be drawn here. Especially, since Nolan Bat-films, share none of the structural themes of his other movies.

I agree with ya man, see above.

 

[ZaCHw117]

Your still missing the point...

 

[DiFabio]

What point is that?

I need to see the light, I am blind.




Zach, pls. Halp.

 

[jye4ever]

What point is that?

I need to see the light, I am blind.




Zach, pls.

DiFabio was also born in darkness.

 

[ZaCHw117]

What point is that?

See below...

Yeah

The ideas behind Batman films crossover to an infinite number of things, that's why the character is so popular - people can relate in one way or another

There is no such thing as Batman being purely about Batman - the characters themselves were inspired by ideas outside of Batman, the stories in the comics have parallels to real life stories and ideas, so for the films to borrow ideas from other films or stories isn't surprising nor does it make the films less about Batman. For example, Bruce Wayne is a recluse in many interpretations of the character, Howard Hughes isnt a bad reference point for that. A tale of two cities is about war, revolution and the different sides of society... Perfectly good reference for Gotham in a state of upheaval

No they tie them because the narrative structure matches up quite well.
Even the 3 acts of TDKR matches that structure, as does the three parts of Act 3 of TDKR

It's nothing new that Nolans films all have the same ideas running through them

 

[DiFabio]

Would you like to see my mask Jye?

 

[intothevoid]

Seems forced to me.

I'd say the theme of obsession is more evident in all of Nolan's films then anything else. Memento, Insomnia, etc. all have characters grappling with obsession. That's one of Batman's main characteristics.

Like I said, it was a nice fan trailer. It was was well done and cool to see during the hype for TDKR. Now though, it's just sort of annoys me that fans have clinged onto it in such a way.

NOLAN NOLAN NOLAN PRESTIGE THREE FILMS THREE ACTS OF A MAGIC TRICK

Obsession is definitely one

The question of do the ends justify the means is another

The parallels to the magic trick are probably subconscious coincidence (don't think it's part of a grand plan) but I can see them. In every film Nolan likes to 'turn an idea on its head' - which is pretty much what that magic trick is about

Sometimes it's quite literal - perfect example - the joker in TDK. He even says it 'I took your little plan and turned it on its head'. And then the most explicit image of all - final joker scene where the camera rotates to literally turn the joker on his head while he explains his 'ace in the hole' how he turned Gothams white knight into a crazed killer

 

[TheProcrastinator]

Just so that it's perfectly clear, I agree with Difabio, that drawing connections between the two "trinities" is forced and missing the point.

However, I was also trying to point out that the whole "Begins.Falls.Rises" theme is a classical concept, that in no way muddles the Batman story. It stands strong on it's own, and doesn't need to be crudely linked with Prestige, to be viewed as the strength of the bat-films. Becouse it is. When viewed as a whole, the trilogy makes a very nicely wrapped story of a character's troubled journey, even if some of the promise from TDK ending is gone.

In other words: Those animated gifs were link-worthy, without drawin connection with Prestige.

 

[DiFabio]

Obsession is definitely one

The question of do the ends justify the means is another

The parallels to the magic trick are probably subconscious coincidence (don't think it's part of a grand plan) but I can see them. In every film Nolan likes to 'turn an idea on its head' - which is pretty much what that magic trick is about

Sometimes it's quite literal - perfect example - the joker in TDK. He even says it 'I took your little plan and turned it on its head'. And then the most explicit image of all - final joker scene where the camera rotates to literally turn the joker on his head while he explains his 'ace in the hole' how he turned Gothams white knight into a crazed killer

Yep, I agree with all that. You know it.

I understand the whole Prestige thing, but I'm sure you get where I'm coming from. Of course I understand it, I just think it's sort of dull (in my honest opinion obviously).


The obsession theme is definitely prominent though. Glad we agree there.

See below...

And I said I felt it was contrived. I don't like it.

For me, it's like those people that see the blessed Virgin or Jesus himself in a piece of wheat toast. If you look hard enough, you'll find something in anything.

That's exactly what the Prestige thing is to me. A forced relation. Sure it applies but had a fan not thought it up, it wouldn't have been prominent and fans wouldn't cling to it.






EDIT:


you didn't have to edit your post Zach.


Though I like those gifs better.

 

[intothevoid]

@ proscrastinator

Of course it's strong on its own. Some of us just see a parallel to Nolans other work - what's wrong with that

@ Fabio

Yes I get your POV - as usual

 

[The Josh]

The "self-serious" label comes from the fact that Nolan is so averse to the "comic book-y" elements and so stubbornly adamant that the films be "grounded in reality". Hell, he even had to be convinced to have Scarecrow wear a god damn mask. It's as if he thinks that stuff is beneath him and his films. Too "childish". He probably thinks THE AVENGERS is a joke.

I get and actually applaud the idea to ground these films in at least some reality. But Nolan does go a bit too far. Afterall, the entire conceit of the character itself is complete fantasy anyway. Embrace it.

And, no, I don't think the Nolan films are bad. To the contrary, they're really damn good. But they're just not quintessential Batman.

Sorry that's not adding much to the discussion.

 

[jye4ever]

Would you like to see my mask Jye?

I have taken off my mask.

 

[CelticPredator]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZc3EsElqeA&feature=related[/ame]


It has nothing to do with magic. It has everything to do with story telling.

It's a play by play of the whole ending. Even at the end. You want to be fooled into thinking he died, and the whole thing was a dream, or some bull**** like that. But the scene is simple. The end is simple.

It's just a clever way to tie in Nolan's storytelling style in another film he did.

It's not even official. It's just interesting how that line works with TDKR.

Making something disappear, then bringing it back.