The Dark Knight Rises *SPOILERS*

[Deckard]

Bast bat creations like Arkham City? Like Batman Begins? Or are you seriously saying TDKR is better then both of those which far more heavily draw on the themes we all know and love while still managing to be differant from anything else and have proved themselves as successful and far more loved within their respective community?

Me simply saying Arkham City destroys your entire arguement, it's all the characters we've gotten 100 times before but w/ balls we haven't seen in a live action medium that brought them to life and made them feel real while maintaining a very visual comics style. Theres plenty of Rogues in Batman's gallery w/ interesting stories to tell, I have no qualms about the choice of Bane, Catwoman, Robin, or even Wayne leaving behind Batman but every problem w/ the way it occured here. It's not just out of character for Batman lore, it's even nonsensicle within the boundries Nolan has established for his own story. Bruce's real life long love who broke him was told to wait because he wasn't done playing Batman, now he gives up completely and runs off for a woman he's spent less then an hour with over the course of a month, and only knows about her criminal record. How does that make any sense?

 

[wofford29]

I'm saying they can all exist and if you're a fan of the character you can appreciate the variety. To not like TDKR because you think it's a bad film is fine. To not like TDKR because you think it's not Batman is ridiculous.

edit for your edit after the fact: You simply saying Arkham City and the arguement that follows destroys nothing but your understanding of my arguement and shows you have a very particular standard that makes Batman, Batman to you. If it doesn't meet that criteria for you it's "horrible."

 

[Deckard]

Well I guess I can still skim by because I think both.

 

[a-dev]

Looking forward to seeing TDKR a second time. Didn't do much for me the first go, I want to see if thats going to be my lasting feeling about it.

 

[DiFabio]

you both have the same boxes that must be ticked or else you're on suicide watch and cry foul about it "not being the character." I say bull****, not only do you miss the mark on artistic and literary interpretation of a fictitional character, but you're ridiculous blinders are part of the reason we end up with the same rehashed **** over and over again until someone comes along in either medium and says **** the posers I'm going to step out and I'm going to pull from themes and make my own story. It's no coincedence that when that's happened you get the best Bat creations out there.

That's a little harsh, I'm sure you thought so while posting it too.

Meeting a certain character criteria isn't why I don't like the movie, I don't like it because well, I don't like how the story unfolded or the way it was executed.

If we're going to talk about "interpretation" and how different is good as opposed to rehashes, why isn't that logic applied to other interpretations as well? So those others can be criticized but TDKR can't? That doesn't seem fair. I've always seen, "well, that's not accurate to the comics" or, "that's not right in terms of faithfulness" and I've never agreed with it but yet it flies. But then, here comes TDKR and it's okay? I've always understood these stories and films are their own thing.

But my problem is, I just don't like how TDKR turned out. It'd be no different if Nolan made Batman a homosexual like Schumacher did, or took some other radical departure like depicting him in a different light no one ever thought of. Would those examples be "out of character"? People cried foul about a host of other things that were "different", why are those bad? I know what I like and what I don't and TDKR didn't strike me as anything good. Alfred and retiring and Italy (the current discussions in quality that are being discussed) are only one of many reasons.




Besides, you thought it would be ****ing stupid to have Batman/Bruce Wayne die just like I did before this film premiered. Fans like Void and Zach were like, "oh man, he's gonna die" and I clearly remember you, me and others saying how stupid that would be and that it would "never happen".

How is that being open to new interpretations or going in with blinders?

So anything is acceptable, even if it's not "good"? Not sure I understand the logic there? What if they made Bane and Batman twin brothers, Or Batman was paralyzed from for the rest of his life, but the story was still crap? Is that still good?

 

[jye4ever]

I believe in DiFabio Dent.

 

[intothevoid]

Well it's pretty clear there's only a small niche of people who hated TDKR

Look at any gauge of public opinion or critic ratings etc and its up there with the first two - TDKR is better rated than BB on RT, meta critic and imdb. TDK has the best ratings but not by much.

Btw if Nolan wanted to kill batman, he'd have killed Batman. If WB didn't like it he wouldn't have made this film. I fully went in pretty open to the idea of him dying, so when the nuke went off it was a pretty powerful moment for me, hit home by Alfred at the grave. But what was even more powerful was the reveal that he wasn't dead. It worked perfectly

 

[wofford29]

That's a little harsh, I'm sure you thought so while posting it too.

Meeting a certain character criteria isn't why I don't like the movie, I don't like it because well, I don't like how the story unfolded or the way it was executed.

If we're going to talk about "interpretation" and how different is good as opposed to rehashes, why isn't that logic applied to other interpretations as well? So those others can be criticized but TDKR can't? That doesn't seem fair. I've always seen, "well, that's not accurate to the comics" or, "that's not right in terms of faithfulness" and I've never agreed with it but yet it flies. But then, here comes TDKR and it's okay? I've always understood these stories and films are their own thing.

But my problem is, I just don't like how TDKR turned out. It'd be no different if Nolan made Batman a homosexual like Schumacher did, or took some other radical departure like depicting him in a different light no one ever thought of. Would those examples be "out of character"? People cried foul about a host of other things that were "different", why are those bad? I know what I like and what I don't and TDKR didn't strike me as anything good. Alfred and retiring and Italy (the current discussions in quality that are being discussed) are only one of many reasons.

My post in #7902 answers this. I don't have any problem with people thinking this movie is bad. I do have a problem with people thinking it's bad because it's "not Batman." That makes zero sense.

Besides, you thought it would be ****ing stupid to have Batman/Bruce Wayne die just like I did before this film premiered. Fans like Void and Zach were like, "oh man, he's gonna die" and I clearly remember you, me and others saying how stupid that would be and that it would "never happen".

How is that being open to new interpretations or going in with blinders?

So anything is acceptable, even if it's not "good"? Not sure I understand the logic there? What if they made Bane and Batman twin brothers, Or Batman was paralyzed from for the rest of his life, but the story was still crap? Is that still good?

I never thought it would be stupid to kill off Batman, I thought the people who thought he was going to be killed off were stupid for thinking it because like you said, it'll "never happen."

You can pick and chose not to like stories, I'm not arguing that. There are plenty of stories I dislike, but I dislike them because they are bad stories, not because 5 boxes aren't checked off in my "Batman must be this" criteria.

 

[Njits]

Oh **** me, here we go again.......

 

[jye4ever]

Wait, so I was stupid for thinking Nolan/ WB might have had the courage to kill off BW/Batman in Nolan's trilogy and pass on his legacy, and then let the reboot bring him back later on.

Wait, that is stupid.

 

[DiFabio]

Well it's pretty clear there's only a small niche of people who hated TDKR.

What does that mean? That those that question it's integrity are off base because there's this invisible majority that thinks this is the best movie ever?

You're probably right about hate, there probably is a small minority that loathes the film. But that doesn't mean the rest of the population loves TDKR. What about those that thought it was decent or "meh" or bad or don't even care (which is probably most people really)? Right now, two months later it seems pretty forgotten. Wow, it's home video release is coming up in December, big whoop. Sadly, I think the most lasting thing to come out of TDKR is the Colorado incident, not any acting performance, monetary performance or story. In fact, every place I go to has TDKR's quality being question and analyzed and the same problems (beyond your "should have been longer") are constantly brought up. It seems to me like there's a sense of "alright, not as good as it was hyped up to be" as well as "not as good as Begins and TDK". I can tell you the only place I contribute is on here, this other stuff is from lurking. I don't remember that during TDK. The only critique I recall is "WHY DID THEY KILL OFF TWO-FACE, IS DAT DOOD DEAD?". TDK was still going strong after it's DVD release. Hell, 2009 seemed pretty eventful too.


Then again, who knows. I don't see any statistics that support "OH MOST PEOPLE LOVE TDKR" or "OH EVERYONE HATES IT". I don't know what the over all consensus because I'm not in every state, country, nation, message board, forum, community, etc.

It was a success financially and it wasn't critically slammed, that's all that's evident to me. Beyond that, I have no idea what the majority ruling is only how I feel and those in a community that I inhabit feel.

I know what I think, you know how you feel. Beyond that? I dunno. This was always made up to be "monumental" from it's conception on. IMO, I see nothing that stacks up to the initial hype that was made for the final product. It's just a movie.

so when the nuke went off it was a pretty powerful moment for me, hit home by Alfred at the grave. But what was even more powerful was the reveal that he wasn't dead. It worked perfectly

I don't see how anyone following the film's production could have been that invested in him flying off past the bridge and it blowing up. Was there ever a fear of him dying?

How could you not see that coming? Did you forget about all the discussions we had? The shot of the Bat carrying off the bomb? I didn't spoil too much (like Robin and ****ing Batman statues) but once Alfred says in the beginning that during Batman Begins he'd make a trip to Italy every year during those 7 years Bruce was gone, I KNEW that Bruce wasn't going to die. How about the references to auto pilot in the beginning? You're perceptive. Even without set pics I would have put those two together. Hell, Bale and Nolan even said in interviews prior to the film that "Bruce was going to find happiness".

Why would they bother showing that scene with Alfred in flashback if that wasn't how it was going to end? You were just as invested as I was, surely you saw that coming from a mile away?

Bruce was never going to die. I knew from day one when that was the suggested feeling simply for marketing purposes of "ending the Dark Knight legend". That image of a broken cowl, "legend ends", Batman dying. He was never going to die though. It's just like how Spider-Man 3 was promoted or any other threequel. "This is the end for Spider-Man", "How can you defeat the darkness" etc. etc.

 

[jye4ever]

I agree with you DiFabio, I know shocker, but go back to BB/TDK and there are so many memorable scenes/quotes.

My non movie fanatic friends gave it a meh to good.

 

[Adolfo]

What does that mean? That those that question it's integrity are off base because there's this invisible majority that thinks this is the best movie ever?

You're probably right about hate, there probably is a small minority that loathes the film. But that doesn't mean the rest of the population loves TDKR. What about those that thought it was decent or "meh" or bad or don't even care (which is probably most people really)? Right now, two months later it seems pretty forgotten. Wow, it's home video release is coming up in December, big whoop. Sadly, I think the most lasting thing to come out of TDKR is the Colorado incident, not any acting performance, monetary performance or story. In fact, every place I go to has TDKR's quality being question and analyzed and the same problems (beyond your "should have been longer") are constantly brought up. It seems to me like there's a sense of "alright, not as good as it was hyped up to be" as well as "not as good as Begins and TDK". I can tell you the only place I contribute is on here, this other stuff is from lurking. I don't remember that during TDK. The only critique I recall is "WHY DID THEY KILL OFF TWO-FACE, IS DAT DOOD DEAD?". TDK was still going strong after it's DVD release. Hell, 2009 seemed pretty eventful too.


Then again, who knows. I don't see any statistics that support "OH MOST PEOPLE LOVE TDKR" or "OH EVERYONE HATES IT". I don't know what the over all consensus because I'm not in every state, country, nation, message board, forum, community, etc.

It was a success financially and it wasn't critically slammed, that's all that's evident to me. Beyond that, I have no idea what the majority ruling is only how I feel and those in a community that I inhabit feel.

I know what I think, you know how you feel. Beyond that? I dunno. This was always made up to be "monumental" from it's conception on. IMO, I see nothing that stacks up to the initial hype that was made for the final product. It's just a movie.







I don't see how anyone following the film's production could have been that invested in him flying off past the bridge and it blowing up. Was there ever a fear of him dying?

How could you not see that coming? Did you forget about all the discussions we had? The shot of the Bat carrying off the bomb? I didn't spoil too much (like Robin and ****ing Batman statues) but once Alfred says in the beginning that during Batman Begins he'd make a trip to Italy every year during those 7 years Bruce was gone, I KNEW that Bruce wasn't going to die. How about the references to auto pilot in the beginning? You're perceptive. Even without set pics I would have put those two together. Hell, Bale and Nolan even said in interviews prior to the film that "Bruce was going to find happiness".

Why would they bother showing that scene with Alfred in flashback if that wasn't how it was going to end? You were just as invested as I was, surely you saw that coming from a mile away?

Bruce was never going to die. I knew from day one when that was the suggested feeling simply for marketing purposes of "ending the Dark Knight legend". That image of a broken cowl, "legend ends", Batman dying. He was never going to die though. It's just like how Spider-Man 3 was promoted or any other threequel. "This is the end for Spider-Man", "How can you defeat the darkness" etc. etc.

You know full well that most folks liked/loved this film...box office and dvd sales prove that...If it was hated it would not do so well...true some films that are great do poorly...but tell me of a film that most folks hate/did not like that did well continuously at box office...it just dont happen...and you know it...hell it seems you have every answer in regards to this film in check...Just take all your posts and put them in book form...maybe make some money with your obsession/dissapointment...good luck...I mean it...I'm not saying that this film is perfect or the best...it is good/great though...some of you guys expectations go thru the roof

 

[Russell1982]

I think I agree with all your sentiments DiFabio, while not necessarily sharing your feelings on the film overall. I'm one of the ones that found it very "meh". I wanted to like it, and was a huge fan of the first two, of the character in general, of Nolans other films, of Christian bale, but this whole film just felt like a huge let down. I did enjoy it and I'll buy the blu ray and watch it again, but it just doesn't live up to the first two. Not by a long shot. I think one of my biggest problems was that the story just seemed really lacking. The only interesting parts were the parts taken from the comics, the parts from the dark knight returns, no mans land, knightfall, the only original story element was "super villain threatens city with a nuclear bomb" which is laughably uninspired. It's the sort of thing you see on a Saturday morning cartoon show.

All that said however, I did enjoy the movie to an extent. I enjoyed the scenes where batman actually showed up, loved the batpod scene where he first returns, thought bane was pretty cool (although his voice was terrible frankly despite sounding cool in the original prologue)

I'm actually really curious to see how this film is viewed in 10 years as I think there's a lot of people defending it because they've loved the dark knight and are a bit "blinded" if that's the right word, to really view this film openly. That's not to say there aren't those who genuinely like it, I don't doubt that for a second. Just really don't see this going down in history like 89 batman did.

Wow, rant over.

 

[DiFabio]

You know full well that most folks liked/loved this film...box office and dvd sales prove that...If it was hated it would not do so well...true some films that are great do poorly...but tell me of a film that most folks hate/did not like that do well continuously at box office...it just dont happen

I didn't even say that most people hated it? That's ridiculous and definitely not the case. I said it was a success. No doubt about that.

But I don't think it's as loved and cherished as say The Dark Knight or the Avengers.

Then again, what the **** do I know? There is no rule to this stuff. Look at Avatar (I think Jye mentioned this). I think that movie is **** and I see a lot of criticism against it but it did extremely well.

I agree with you DiFabio, I know shocker, but go back to BB/TDK and there are so many memorable scenes/quotes.

We're on the same page pretty much, as always.

Well I knew Gordon wasn't dead during the Joker chase scene but I think the "we got you you son of a *****" reveal (especially Joker's expression/reaction) was much more fulfilling than anything they play up in TDKR.


Batman's death? Knew it was coming, pay off sucked. (Nice visual of the platform in the Batcave rising though)

Talia's reveal? Some reveal, everyone and their grandma knew that was happening. Even before it was spoiled in Pittsburgh. Talia is one of the worst things in TDKR and isn't even necessarily crucial (if you tweaked the story).

 

[Adolfo]

I didn't even say that most people hated it? That's ridiculous and definitely not the case. I said it was a success. No doubt about that.

But I don't think it's as loved and cherished as say The Dark Knight or the Avengers.

Then again, what the **** do I know? There is no rule to this stuff. Look at Avatar (I think Jye mentioned this). I think that movie is **** and I see a lot of criticism against it but it did extremely well.




We're on the same page pretty much, as always.

Well I knew Gordon wasn't dead during the Joker chase scene but I think the "we got you you son of a *****" reveal (especially Joker's expression/reaction) was much more fulfilling than anything they play up in TDKR.


Batman's death? Knew it was coming, pay off sucked. (Nice visual of the platform in the Batcave rising though)

Talia's reveal? Some reveal, everyone and their grandma knew that was happening. Even before it was spoiled in Pittsburgh. Talia is one of the worst things in TDKR and isn't even necessarily crucial (if you tweaked the story).

From my analysis this film is a very huge obsession for you...that's it...I loved DK and consider it Nolan's masterpiece and I always knew he could never top that in this third film...but I kept an open mind and was happy to see the character's return and took this film for what it is...an interpretation by Nolan/WB...that's it...if someone doesnt like it, dont ever see it again and go make a better film yourself...simple......As Rambo would say "Let it go"....

 

[intothevoid]

What does that mean? That those that question it's integrity are off base because there's this invisible majority that thinks this is the best movie ever?

You're probably right about hate, there probably is a small minority that loathes the film. But that doesn't mean the rest of the population loves TDKR. What about those that thought it was decent or "meh" or bad or don't even care (which is probably most people really)? Right now, two months later it seems pretty forgotten. Wow, it's home video release is coming up in December, big whoop. Sadly, I think the most lasting thing to come out of TDKR is the Colorado incident, not any acting performance, monetary performance or story. In fact, every place I go to has TDKR's quality being question and analyzed and the same problems (beyond your "should have been longer") are constantly brought up. It seems to me like there's a sense of "alright, not as good as it was hyped up to be" as well as "not as good as Begins and TDK". I can tell you the only place I contribute is on here, this other stuff is from lurking. I don't remember that during TDK. The only critique I recall is "WHY DID THEY KILL OFF TWO-FACE, IS DAT DOOD DEAD?". TDK was still going strong after it's DVD release. Hell, 2009 seemed pretty eventful too.


Then again, who knows. I don't see any statistics that support "OH MOST PEOPLE LOVE TDKR" or "OH EVERYONE HATES IT". I don't know what the over all consensus because I'm not in every state, country, nation, message board, forum, community, etc.

It was a success financially and it wasn't critically slammed, that's all that's evident to me. Beyond that, I have no idea what the majority ruling is only how I feel and those in a community that I inhabit feel.

I know what I think, you know how you feel. Beyond that? I dunno. This was always made up to be "monumental" from it's conception on. IMO, I see nothing that stacks up to the initial hype that was made for the final product. It's just a movie.







I don't see how anyone following the film's production could have been that invested in him flying off past the bridge and it blowing up. Was there ever a fear of him dying?

How could you not see that coming? Did you forget about all the discussions we had? The shot of the Bat carrying off the bomb? I didn't spoil too much (like Robin and ****ing Batman statues) but once Alfred says in the beginning that during Batman Begins he'd make a trip to Italy every year during those 7 years Bruce was gone, I KNEW that Bruce wasn't going to die. How about the references to auto pilot in the beginning? You're perceptive. Even without set pics I would have put those two together. Hell, Bale and Nolan even said in interviews prior to the film that "Bruce was going to find happiness".

Why would they bother showing that scene with Alfred in flashback if that wasn't how it was going to end? You were just as invested as I was, surely you saw that coming from a mile away?

Bruce was never going to die. I knew from day one when that was the suggested feeling simply for marketing purposes of "ending the Dark Knight legend". That image of a broken cowl, "legend ends", Batman dying. He was never going to die though. It's just like how Spider-Man 3 was promoted or any other threequel. "This is the end for Spider-Man", "How can you defeat the darkness" etc. etc.

Bruce could easily have died based on what I went in knowing, the Alfred scene didn't even stick in my mind till the payoff actually happened, and most people i've talked to or watched the film with felt the same - I avoided most of the major spoilers so in my anything could have happened.

The movie has been a critical success - you can say that it isn't as universally acclaimed as TDK, and that would be true, but overall vast majority of critics or fans have rated it favourably - critics you can gauge on RT or metacric where it sits right behind TDK.

And as far as fans/general audience, the biggest review aggregator site out there is IMDB, on which TDKR is currently #29 of all time. BB or even Avengers are not even in the top 100.

TDK is in the top 10.

For me it definitely lived up to its hype. Still top of the pile ahead of BB for me.


No amount of moaning from anyone will change the success this movies had.

 

[DiFabio]

that's it...if someone doesnt like it, dont ever see it again and go make a better film yourself...simple......As Rambo would say "Let it go"....

That's it? No more posty posty?

Man, I better start that script and filming and not buy this on blu ray then. I mean, it's not like I've been expressing the same thoughts each and every day since the film debuted? This is like one of my first "**** TDKR" posts in what, a month? It definitely doesn't have as much fervor as it did originally.

And besides, don't we all repeat ourselves and how we feel in some capacity? Think of things you don't like. If the situation or discussion presents it self, don't you say the same stuff?

As Rambo would say "Let it go"....

I thought that's what Henry Jones Sr. said?

 

[Adolfo]

I didn't even say that most people hated it? That's ridiculous and definitely not the case. I said it was a success. No doubt about that.

If you even think that most folks are in the middle here with those box office numbers then that is ridiculous.....Not a chance of those box office numbers even with middle ground...This film was mostly liked/loved period...no dispute

 

[Adolfo]

That's it? No more posty posty?

Man, I better start that script and filming and not buy this on blu ray then. I mean, it's not like I've been expressing the same thoughts each and every day since the film debuted? This is like one of my first "**** TDKR" posts in what, a month? It definitely doesn't have as much fervor as I did originally.

And besides, don't all repeat ourselves and how we feel in some capacity?





I thought that's what Henry Jones Sr. said?

him too...