The Dark Knight Rises *SPOILERS*

[TheProcrastinator]

During the interrogation scene in TDK when batman has the joker up against the wall jokers hands keep changing position and I always noticed that and it was a bit irritating, but I don't think it's as blatant and distracting as the "falling extra."

True. The "joker hands changing position" is the kind of innocent mistake that happens ALL THE TIME in films. There are whole sites deicated to cataloguing them. It's probably due to editing necessites. I don't mind such mistakes during the viewing at all. Especially since most of them are invisible, until some one points them out.

Rises mistakes are not only more serious, but are also from the "was everyone on the set blind during the making of this?" kind.

Blood does not make a movie R. You can easily get away with it.

But agressive violence does. Agression, violence, malice + blood = a film that won't get a pg-13 rating, which is simply something that Nolan couldn't have under WB.

Violence in TDK is much more raw, tangible and "real", than the standard, lukewarm clashes found in most pg-13 blockbusters. With all the violence in TDK and the general dark tone, Nolan wouldn't be able to get this rating.

 

[CelticPredator]

I think the problem is...none of you guys really understand how hard it is to make a film.

Niether do I for that matter, but I have a decent understanding as to why certain things happen. You're dealing with a 100 people daily on set, and time is ticking and money is flowing.

You may have only one shot to get this, and what you get is what you get. Mistakes like that aren't important. Period. They aren't. What's important is the film. The story, the characters, the acting.

A guy ****ing up doesn't ruin the film. A character making a conflicting choice without reason or purpose due to the screenwriters incompetence, or the director not understanding the screenplay make a bad movie. (Amongst other things)

I was trying to drive this point home....if the horrible mistakes in TDK, doesn't make it a bad movie, then why do the mistakes in TDKR make it a bad movie?

Answer, they don't. The quarrels with TDKR have to do with the direction, script, and acting.

 

[EVILFACE]

TDK contains the same amount of hideously stupid errors...like the lack of blood when there should be, changing hair color between shots, bad wire work when people get hit with buses, poor clunky action scenes....ect....face it, IMAX cameras cause filmmaker s to overlook mistakes.

It didn't need it. And blood would have given TDK a R rating.

 

[CelticPredator]

I don't think so. I'm not asking for gallons. I'm asking for some bit of the fluid that erupts from a person who just got shot in the knee caps. It doesn't look right.

The film is very much a PG-13. The reason why it works, and people think it's more violent then it actually is, is the implied violence. He allows you to rely on your imagination. And that's why people claim it's worse.

That's not the case with the bank teller. It's right there. In your face. He doesn't shy away from it.

Most PG-13 movies have bloody aftermaths. It's the actual violence itself that's the problem.

 

[TheProcrastinator]

I was trying to drive this point home....if the horrible mistakes in TDK, doesn't make it a bad movie, then why do the mistakes in TDKR make it a bad movie?

Answer, they don't. The quarrels with TDKR have to do with the direction, script, and acting.

But....nobody in this conversation was trying to argue with that

We were simply talking about the number and scale of technicall errors in Rises as opposed to Nolan other movies.

 

[CelticPredator]

I know. I'm arguing that TDK had just as many, and i'm telling you why I think that happened.

But ultimately, TDK and TDKR are worse then Batman Begins. Which is pretty much perfect. Aside from terrible fight scenes.

 

[Russell1982]

I think the blood issue is also linked to how dark the films are already. The fact that they have a very dark tone already means that they were probably already on the verge of getting a higher rating (don't know the various ratings in America, sorry) so adding in blood would have just pushed it slightly over the edge.

I do agree with you, batman begins is probably my favourite batman film. It is pretty much perfect, except for the fight scenes. Can't believe they went to such effort to train the actors in keysi and then edit the fight scenes so you don't actually see it. Everything else though, fantastic.

 

[TheProcrastinator]

The film is very much a PG-13. The reason why it works, and people think it's more violent then it actually is, is the implied violence. He allows you to rely on your imagination. And that's why people claim it's worse.

No the reason is that the violent atmosphere in TDK is much darker than in other pg-13 superhero flicks.

Standard superhero flick:

Two guys in ridiculous looking spandex suits are throwing brightly coloured flashes of CGI at each other, while occasionaly engaging in overly acrobatic, dance-like, relatively gentle, choreographed exchanges that are totally lacking in violence or aggresion.

TDK:

A furious man in a Bat suit, heavily smashes the face of a victim against the wall, a victim that happens to be a knife-mutilated murderous, psychotic clown, who laughs at his face, couse he is feeding off his agression, while the man is savagely beating down on the clown's face, while almost hyperventilating with fury. All of this happens in a scene that is part of a film with a constant undertone of unncertainty and violence. This film couldn't have blood and still get a pg-13 rating.

And You are right pointing out that the shooting scene in the bank wasn't anything especially violent, but it was just a part of the whole movie.

I know. I'm arguing that TDK had just as many, and i'm telling you why I think that happened.

But ultimately, TDK and TDKR are worse then Batman Begins. Which is pretty much perfect. Aside from terrible fight scenes.

Heh. I disagree with anything You just wrote TDKR had much more goofs than TDK (thats not the reason why Rises is a worst movie though). Begins is great, but not the same calibre as TDK and the fight scenes in Begins, while shot with incomprehensible montage (that was intentional in some cases), still had a lot of dynamism in them. But lets agree to disagree

 

[CelticPredator]

TDK is overrated.

 

[TheProcrastinator]

I dissagree with that as well, but agruing this point would start a behemoth of a discussion, and I allready dissected those films with others, way too many times for my own good.

So let's agree to disagree, since now we both know our opinion on this

 

[CelticPredator]

Where's the fun in that?

My heart really wasn't in this debate anyway. I'm so bored of TDKS and Risiers and all that. I just want some new Batman now.

 

[jye4ever]

I think a lot of the passion Nolan had for these "themes" you mention died along with Ledger.

Nobat's third act became a chore, and thus a bore, and was forced to rely on a massively less-memorable villain than before.

Batman really became a supporting character in his own film by the end of the series. The psychodrama of Gotham and his opponents overshadowed any character arc he displayed.


___

I think the problem is...none of you guys really understand how hard it is to make a film.

Niether do I for that matter, but I have a decent understanding as to why certain things happen. You're dealing with a 100 people daily on set, and time is ticking and money is flowing.

You may have only one shot to get this, and what you get is what you get. Mistakes like that aren't important. Period. They aren't. What's important is the film. The story, the characters, the acting.

A guy ****ing up doesn't ruin the film. A character making a conflicting choice without reason or purpose due to the screenwriters incompetence, or the director not understanding the screenplay make a bad movie. (Amongst other things)

I was trying to drive this point home....if the horrible mistakes in TDK, doesn't make it a bad movie, then why do the mistakes in TDKR make it a bad movie?

Answer, they don't. The quarrels with TDKR have to do with the direction, script, and acting.

Nolan should take some lessons from Fincher:

Zodiac:

Some of the cast was not happy with Fincher’s exacting ways and perfectionism. Some scenes required upwards of 70 takes. Gyllenhaal was frustrated by the director’s methods and commented in an interview, "You get a take, 5 takes, 10 takes. Some places, 90 takes. But there is a stopping point. There’s a point at which you go, ‘That’s what we have to work with.’ But we would reshoot things. So there came a point where I would say, well, what do I do? Where’s the risk?"[5] Downey said, "I just decided, aside from several times I wanted to garrote him, that I was going to give him what he wanted. I think I’m a perfect person to work for him, because I understand gulags".[5] Fincher responded, "If an actor is going to let the role come to them, they can’t resent the fact that I’m willing to wait as long as that takes. You know, the first day of production in San Francisco we shot 56 takes of Mark and Jake – and it’s the 56th take that’s in the movie".[8] Ruffalo also backed up his director’s methods when he said, "The way I see it is, you enter into someone else’s world as an actor. You can put your expectations aside and have an experience that’s new and pushes and changes you, or hold onto what you think it should be and have a stubborn, immovable journey that’s filled with disappointment and anger."[5]

 

[TheProcrastinator]

The problem with this approach, is that Finchers movies still aren't bulletproof. They are full of goofs and mistakes as any other movie.

Especially since usualy, this kind "Let's go again! Another shot!" approach with directors, has little to do with eliminating errors, and is more related to getting that one specific nuance in the actor's performance, or the scene vibe, that the filmmaker wants for one reason or another.

 

[jye4ever]

The problem with this approach, is that Finchers movies still aren't bulletproof. They are full of goofs and mistakes as any other movie.

Especially since usualy, this kind "Let's go again! Another shot!" approach with directors, has little to do with eliminating errors, and is more related to getting that one specific nuance in the actor's performance, or the scene vibe, that the filmmaker wants for one reason or another.

True, but my point was if there was enough budget for 70-90 takes in a 65 million budget movie then I don't see how reshooting or CGI removing 2 stunt man goofs, bad ones, that will pull you out of any movie no matter how good the story, is too much to ask for in a 300 million dollar movie.

Besides, another take is just as good for a physical error as it is for an actor's nuance.

Ahh screw it, it's only a movie.

 

[ZaCHw117]

Even though it's not TDKR, I thought it was really cool...

 

[TheProcrastinator]

But...that's wrong I think

I believe he releases the hammer at some point, also Two-Face would notice that, as he had the gun right in his nose.

The real beauty of this scene (if You disagree with the theory posted above) is that it shows that Joker didn't give a **** whether he would live or die. He gave the whole manipulative speech to Dent, but when he put gun in his hand, he knew it was 50/50. He knew that if that coin falls the wrong way, he is going to paint the hospital wall with his brains.

And that's what beautiful. Couse even then he would still win. If he died, he would still make his point. He would have still broken the "White Knight" and shown everyone how ****ed up all of this is. And that's all he cared about.

And I think its an important part of TDK Joker. It also informed a lot of his plans. Some people complain about Jokers plan relying on too much coincidece. But when You think about it, none of the things Joker did are impossible, they just seem too convinient. But Joker didn't care for his life, he didn't made plans with contingencies for his own safety. He just ACTED, he did stuff, like a force of nature he is often described as. His plans worked exactly becouse he was daring, he always went head first, without worrying about the consequences for his health. And it just worked. This kind of effectivnes born out of 100% commitment, and not holding back, or being cautious out of fear is exactly the Joker's method in the madness.

The theory on the poster is nice and it may turn out to be true, but I think watching the scene simply as Joker putting his life in Harvey's hands works equaly well if not better.

 

[SixthScaleEdward]

There's actually two scenes. One when batman and catwoman are fighting banes men on the roof top, one guy just kind of steps side to side as if he's about to do something, then just randomly drops to the floor. Then when Blake is about to be shot in the head and batman drops down and saves him, the same thing happens. Batman beats up a few guys and then one just randomly drops down to the floor.

Wow gotta see those scenes again!

But...that's wrong I think

I believe he releases the hammer at some point, also Two-Face would notice that, as he had the gun right in his nose.

I just watched it again, Joker never let the hammer loose.

 

[intothevoid]

The sloppy mistakes and bad takes are annoying but I put that down to the massive shooting schedule the production had. Nolan runs an efficient machine but I think he got the balance between keeping moving and getting the best shot a little wrong this time.

Nevertheless, they hardly take much away from my enjoyment of this film.

I just got my first ever home theater system and am having it setup today. Time for a TDK Trilogy once it's done!!

 

[Russell1982]

I agree about the procastinator about the joker, every word. I think him having his thumb on the hammer is just a little mistake or something, as I'm sure fingers move about during that scene too . I think he would have happily let dent kill him as that is his whole point, same with wanting batman to kill him, if he dies he proves his point. Its win win for him.

I also agree with void, the mistakes aren't generally something that ruins the film for me, just that one particular mistake bugs me in the specific scenes. And as I and others have said, its more just that its weird for someone of nolan's usual standard to have this kind of mistake.

 

[EVILFACE]

The sloppy mistakes and bad takes are annoying but I put that down to the massive shooting schedule the production had. Nolan runs an efficient machine but I think he got the balance between keeping moving and getting the best shot a little wrong this time.

Nevertheless, they hardly take much away from my enjoyment of this film.

I just got my first ever home theater system and am having it setup today. Time for a TDK Trilogy once it's done!!

Matrix Reloaded and Revelations would be a better surround sound demo.