The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Comic and Un-aired Spoilers unwelcome!)

[devilof76]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

And by the assumptions they've made, in contradiction to what they've been told.

How many times has he said the zombies are sick and guns aren't allowed?

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

And by the assumptions they've made, in contradiction to what they've been told.

How many times has he said the zombies are sick and guns aren't allowed?

Well, in their eyes, it's because he didn't want to get caught with Sophia in the barn. Guns gone and Rick converted, Hershall would have a better chance. You gotta stop looking at it through your eyes since you're viewing it in the 3rd person, and look at it from their perspective. What they just saw all but justified Shane's suspicions and his actions and makes Hershall out to be the liar. Making matters worse, he's even pinning it all on the dead guy.

 

[devilof76]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Why would Hershel want them to not find Sophia?

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Why would Hershel want them to not find Sophia?

It would instantly vilify him. Also might force them to take the farm with their guns. You gotta understand. At this point, it looks like he was hiding her from them.

 

[devilof76]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Sorry, I think Shane's just being paranoid. It's supposition and a classic deflection to maintain his justification. Taking action like that revealed a lot about his true intentions and throwing out a baseless accusation like that, brimming with circumstantial support, is the perfect way to direct any inclination to demonize away from himself.

Also, the video isn't working. Even when I link through the email it's dead. I did watch the other one though (Shane and Rick fighting on the porch).

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Sorry, I think Shane's just being paranoid. It's supposition and a classic deflection to maintain his justification. Taking action like that revealed a lot about his true intentions and throwing out a baseless accusation like that, brimming with circumstantial support, is the perfect way to direct any inclination to demonize away from himself.

Also, the video isn't working. Even when I link through the email it's dead. I did watch the other one though (Shane and Rick fighting on the porch).

At this point, I don't think Shane is deflecting anything. He was just as surprised to see Sophia walk out of the barn as the rest of them. Remember, he didn't pull the trigger either. The only difference between Shane and the rest of the group is he doesn't scheme behind everybody's back and says what he thinks. In this case, I think his actions are genuine. And again, Sophia stumbling out of the barn, justified.

It seems like it's the same vid with the exception of Maggie slapping Shane after the exchange and telling him to back off.

 

[devilof76]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Shane just took the thug route and anyone who calms down long enough to work their way through the extremely thin justification that they were endangered will see that. Dale has already figured out how far he's willing to go in using force to get his way. It's just a matter of time before he uses it against others.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Shane just took the thug route and anyone who calms down long enough to work their way through the extremely thin justification that they were endangered will see that. Dale has already figured out how far he's willing to go in using force to get his way. It's just a matter of time before he uses it against others.

It's not just that they were endangered anymore. To them, Hershall was hiding Sophia in the barn. It makes matters much worse now, given Otis was the wrangler, that he's essentially blaming her being there on Otis and playing ignorant. The man is stubborn, not dumb, and that card doesn't suit him at all. Again, look at it from their POV. I bet even cool hand Dale's questioning Hershall's motive after seeing Sophia stumble out.

 

[devilof76]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

I know Rick isn't.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

I know Rick isn't.

Right now, Rick is incapable of leading the group. Not saying Shane is, but the comment Dale made in the woods was accurate. Shane was tailor made to survive in a zombie apocalypse. The fact that Dale pretty much admitted to being incapable of adapting was kinda screwy. That's admitting he serves essentially no purpose whatsoever in the new world he's forced to exist in. At that point, a person just becomes a provisions siv. If they were at a colony, re-establishing a society, it would be entirely different. But they're not.

 

[devilof76]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Dale is drawing the same false conclusions that Shane is. There is no difference between life in a zombie apocalypse or life in a jungle or a crime ridden city or whatever. Threats are threats, no matter what. Being human doesn't change, and the conditions for it don't change. When societal order breaks down, the only thing that really changes is that there are fewer checks on the kind of people you have to worry about.

Shane's just playing to fears and confusing things. His own fear has brought him to a point where he thinks his behavior is justified, and bringing the rest of the group into his frame of mind puts him at an apparent advantage. If he had been leading when they encountered the vatos in Atlanta, I think there would have been a lot of dead old people on his hands right now. He doesn't think beyond the next zombie. That kind of short-range perspective will sustain his life for exactly as far as his vision extends.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Dale is drawing the same false conclusions that Shane is. There is no difference between life in a zombie apocalypse or life in a jungle or a crime ridden city or whatever. Threats are threats, no matter what. Being human doesn't change, and the conditions for it don't change. When societal order breaks down, the only thing that really changes is that there are fewer checks on the kind of people you have to worry about.

Shane's just playing to fears and confusing things. His own fear has brought him to a point where he thinks his behavior is justified, and bringing the rest of the group into his frame of mind puts him at an apparent advantage. If he had been leading when they encountered the vatos in Atlanta, I think there would have been a lot of dead old people on his hands right now. He doesn't think beyond the next zombie. That kind of short-range perspective will sustain his life for exactly as far as his vision extends.

Yes and no. Unless you live in an isolated village in the Congo, or the jungles of south-east Asia, you don't have to worry about man-eating creatures busting in your windows, tearing down your doors, etc. Even those who live in bear country aren't as at risk as those in Kirkman's new world. So the environment is completely different and takes adapting to both physically and emotionally.

That said, you're right. People are the greater danger. But your mindset is flawed. While you're right that the checks and balances are gone, you're wrong in the sense of being optimistically human. In this new world, the strong survive and the weak die. Remember the attack on their camp? Shane was right. Because Rick left, and left the group weakened because he felt guilty about Merle, lives were lost. If he'd stayed, there would've been more guns and more people to defend the camp (and assuming Merle led the zombies there, no truck for him to use in doing so).

 

[devilof76]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

What were their greater numbers going to defend the camp with? One more gun and a crossbow? They had Andrea's gun at the camp but it didn't get used. Why? Because when they were at their most vulnerable (four men short, albeit only two were armed, and one was a slow reloader) they had let their guard down. Big ol' fish fry and a girl's birthday. Almost enough to make you forget there are more where that deer-eater came from. If Shane had pretentions of leadership, being on top of that before it happened would have been a plan.

Thankfully, Rick's guilt brought the four of them back fully armed with shotguns, otherwise the carnage would have progressed much further.

 

[Mister Ski]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Hi guys.

I'm so glad to see this thread getting some love again.

My take on the last episode is that Herschel didn't know that Sophia was in the barn. I'm guessing Otis must have found her and put her in there. But then Shane up and killed Otis before he could tell anyone about the little girl walker he found - so this whole situation ends up being Shane's fault again.

Seriously though, Herschel would have told them about Sophia if he knew she was in there. It would give them the resolution to the situation they needed and then they would have left the farm - which is all Herschel wants - to be left alone with his family and the barn walkers until a "cure" is found which we know isn't coming but Herschel doesn't know this.

I think it is perfectly understandable that Shane and maybe the others in the group jump to the conclusion that Herschel knew about Sophia being in the barn, but I am betting that is cleared up one way or the other in the Nebraska episode.

Herschel is so far removed from what has gone on in the world around him that he is still too idealistic in his faith. The barn scene cruelly rocked his faith which is why he looked so pained and now he will be faced with a decision to make: cling to his original belief that the walkers are just sick or adapt to the situation and realize he his initial theory was wrong. It is never easy to admit when you are wrong and what makes it so much harder in Herschel's case is that his wife and stepson were in there too and he saw them gunned down. Tough to see a loved one gunned down in front of you. Remember how hard Andrea took Amy's death.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

What were their greater numbers going to defend the camp with? One more gun and a crossbow? They had Andrea's gun at the camp but it didn't get used. Why? Because when they were at their most vulnerable (four men short, albeit only two were armed, and one was a slow reloader) they had let their guard down. Big ol' fish fry and a girl's birthday. Almost enough to make you forget there are more where that deer-eater came from. If Shane had pretentions of leadership, being on top of that before it happened would have been a plan.

Thankfully, Rick's guilt brought the four of them back fully armed with shotguns, otherwise the carnage would have progressed much further.

Well, if they hadn't taken the truck back to the city, Merle wouldn't have had the means to take the zombies to the camp. So Rick's fault.

He should've left Merle to die as a consequence for his own actions, and then agreed to lie about it with the rest of the group. He wasn't putting safety in the best interest of the people making the decision to go back and save Merle. It was a selfish decision made out of guilt.

Herschel is so far removed from what has gone on in the world around him that he is still too idealistic in his faith. The barn scene cruelly rocked his faith which is why he looked so pained and now he will be faced with a decision to make: cling to his original belief that the walkers are just sick or adapt to the situation and realize he his initial theory was wrong. It is never easy to admit when you are wrong and what makes it so much harder in Herschel's case is that his wife and stepson were in there too and he saw them gunned down. Tough to see a loved one gunned down in front of you. Remember how hard Andrea took Amy's death.

But at this point, he needs to understand that his actions only make him look like a liar, and any means of explaining the truth lie with a dead man. So while I'm not saying he needs to lie about it, he needs to be able to see the new situation from their perspective. Which I'm guessing he's incapable of doing.

Spoiler

And in the end, his stubborn idiocy will wind up costing him Maggie who'll leave with the group to the prison.

^^^ Pixy, I know you're a spoilertag whore, but don't read that! ^^^

 

[Mister Ski]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Well, if they hadn't taken the truck back to the city, Merle wouldn't have had the means to take the zombies to the camp. So Rick's fault.

He should've left Merle to die as a consequence for his own actions, and then agreed to lie about it with the rest of the group. He wasn't putting safety in the best interest of the people making the decision to go back and save Merle. It was a selfish decision made out of guilt.





But at this point, he needs to understand that his actions only make him look like a liar, and any means of explaining the truth lie with a dead man. So while I'm not saying he needs to lie about it, he needs to be able to see the new situation from their perspective. Which I'm guessing he's incapable of doing.

Spoiler

And in the end, his stubborn idiocy will wind up costing him Maggie who'll leave with the group to the prison.

^^^ Pixy, I know you're a spoilertag whore, but don't read that! ^^^

We will see if Herschel is able to adapt or not. Once everyone cools down, cooler heads may prevail and one of them (Rick? Herschel?) may realize that they are all victims of a misunderstanding. Herschel misunderstands the walker threat and the group misunderstands how Sophia got into the barn. It would also help the situation if the group could see things from Herschel's perspective. I think Rick does to some extent (which is why he went zombie wranglering with him), but Shane most definitely does not.

Oh and pixy, read Nam's spoiler tag. You know you want to.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

We will see if Herschel is able to adapt or not. Once everyone cools down, cooler heads may prevail and one of them (Rick? Herschel?) may realize that they are all victims of a misunderstanding. Herschel misunderstands the walker threat and the group misunderstands how Sophia got into the barn. It would also help the situation if the group could see things from Herschel's perspective. I think Rick does to some extent (which is why he went zombie wranglering with him), but Shane most definitely does not.

Oh and pixy, read Nam's spoiler tag. You know you want to.

Unfortunately, they can't see things from Hershall's perspective because they know contrary. He's an old man, living in isolation, completely shut out from reality. If he still thinks the way he does after seeing what he saw (Shane's brutal reality check), he's beyond helping. And if the show follows the comic, we know what happens (spoiler tag above).

 

[Mister Ski]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Unfortunately, they can't see things from Hershall's perspective because they know contrary. He's an old man, living in isolation, completely shut out from reality. If he still thinks the way he does after seeing what he saw (Shane's brutal reality check), he's beyond helping. And if the show follows the comic, we know what happens (spoiler tag above).

True. I was thinking that if they misunderstand Herschel's actions (i.e. - thinking Herschel knew Sophia was in the barn all along), then maybe they will come to see his point of view about not knowing she was in there once they cool down. Of course this is all assuming this plays out this way.

One thing we do know for certain is that what you put in your spoiler tag is going to happen and it is driving pixy nuts not reading it.

 

[devilof76]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

Well, if they hadn't taken the truck back to the city, Merle wouldn't have had the means to take the zombies to the camp. So Rick's fault.

He should've left Merle to die as a consequence for his own actions, and then agreed to lie about it with the rest of the group. He wasn't putting safety in the best interest of the people making the decision to go back and save Merle. It was a selfish decision made out of guilt.

When who did what?

The one-handed zombie-rustler/truck-driver/deus-ex-machina that spins the story against Rick's decision to retrieve the guns and relieve his conscience from an action that he knew to be unjust and would equal blood on his hands?

K.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC

When who did what?

The one-handed zombie-rustler/truck-driver/deus-ex-machina that spins the story against Rick's decision to retrieve the guns and relieve his conscience from an action that he knew to be unjust and would equal blood on his hands?

K.

Merle took the truck when Rick and crew left it to go find him on the rooftops. Then suddenly that evening, what I'd call a "truck full" of zombies attack the camp? That's a mighty fine coincidence.

Rick wouldn't have had blood on his hands. Merle suffered the consequences of his actions, and those consequences were fit considering the new world they're living in. That's blood that wouldn't have been on Rick's hands. And as we saw anyway, that whole trip was entirely unnecessary given all it resulted in was the truck being stolen and utilized to take walkers to the camp. Instead, if Rick had stayed at the camp, he, T-bone, and Daryl (if they'd lied) would've stayed there. That's better odds and likely Merle wouldn't have had the means to cart the zombies to the camp (assuming that's what happened).