The Willow Polystone Statue

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The last two posts are very interesting. Blackthornone, you demonstrate that you are not a fan of the franchise when you state Willow is not a popular character. Buffy (and Angel) were true ensemble shows, when the "sidekicks" were as important to the story as the leads. Willow is probably the most popular character next to Buffy.

I again ask the question, what is the point of making a character statue so different from its source? I believe (and the point's moot unless someone else makes a Willow statue and mass produces it) a Willow statue that is accurate to the character would have been MORE successful commercially than this one, as it would have attracted actual fans of the show and character who would prefer a true likeness, like pordey2. I believe this market would overshadow the subsection of Willow/Aly fans who 1. like the statue as is, 2. are so desperate for a Willow statue with a pleasing head portrait that they would overlook the ridiculous body, pose, and clothes plus 3. the (I am assuming) small percentage of non-fans who collect ****alicious girly statues.

The talk about wanting realistic Spikes and other boy statues while sexed up neo-Willow is okay is honestly disturbing. It's another reason why I fret over the messages my 11 year old niece is getting and learning for truth. I got the full season set of Buffy on DVD for $27 on Amazon a few weeks ago. I think it's going to end up under her Christmas tree Friday night.

I agree that true fans of the show would prefer the most realistic likeness, as I said regarding purists, but are there 250 purist fans who would spend $225 on a statue of Willow? That's the question in my mind when I think of a more realistic depiction. Maybe there ARE. If so, then I understand the frustration that those people would have. I honestly don't know, however I doubt that there are. Sexing up the statue on the other hand garners a more universal appeal, and yet is nice enough as to not overly offend most true fans who want a Willow statue, and so I think it was the shrewder move. Sexing up makes non die hard fans like it more so they will buy it, but is not so over the top as to discourage the hardcore fan from buying it.
As far as a sexed up Willow being disturbing, bear in mind that the vast majority of sci-fi, comics fantasy genre, ect, are males, and because of this, in order to be most successful, collectibles are likely to cater primarily to male fantasies. If you can't relate to what men fantasize about because you are a woman, I understand that, but if you disagree with the idea of sexing up female characters, as others have said, it is very likely that practically no female characters would exist in the fantasy genre if they weren't perceivable as sexy, because a lot of males wouldn't find them interesting enough, and there aren't enough women to hold the audience. How many female characters can you think of in the fantasy genre that AREN'T sexy?
Traditionally, female action figures sell very poorly if they aren't beautiful. Sexing up the female character is the best way to make it marketable.
If there really were enough females who were into this genre who were able to spend $225 on a statue of a female character, I think that then you would be guaranteed the kind of version that you would prefer. As an aside, I don't think that this statue is extremely over sexed. I think it's a BIT sexier, but nothing you couldn't let an 8 year old see and not blush. It's not like she's in a bikini. I think it's just that she is made a little more sexy than she is on the show and that some women are offended by the concept of sexing up a female character to any degree, more than she really is JUST TO MAKE HER SEXIER, mostly, rather than the actual sexiness of the statue. I think that women offended are offended more on principle than anything else.
The principle I think involves market forces that are unlikely to ever change. It is surprising that the sexiness of the She Hulk PF was so toned down, but She Hulk is a more popular character, I believe.

Regarding the messages your 11 year old niece is getting, I assume you are saying that she is getting hit on to some degree? If that is the case, I think the only right approach is to teach your children to act the same with strangers online as they would in person, and you should have no problems. It works both ways. Strangers can approach, and they often will, but it is the parent's job to teach the children to be wary, and that wariness shouldn't stop when they are on the phone, or ONLINE. It seems like a double standard of carefulness has developed to a disturbing degree on the part of parents and their children as to their online interactions, as if somehow those aren't REAL people they are talking to. Please parents of the world, do your jobs, and teach your children to chat online no different than if they were talking on the phone, and being careful what they say, as if the person online could find out where they were , just like someone they met in person would. If I had a child, that's what I would teach.
 
I agree that true fans of the show would prefer the most realistic likeness, as I said regarding purists, but are there 250 purist fans who would spend $225 on a statue of Willow? That's the question in my mind when I think of a more realistic depiction. Maybe there ARE. If so, then I understand the frustration that those people would have. I honestly don't know, however I doubt that there are. Sexing up the statue on the other hand garners a more universal appeal, and yet is nice enough as to not overly offend most true fans who want a Willow statue, and so I think it was the shrewder move. Sexing up makes non die hard fans like it more so they will buy it, but is not so over the top as to discourage the hardcore fan from buying it.
As far as a sexed up Willow being disturbing, bear in mind that the vast majority of sci-fi, comics fantasy genre, ect, are males, and because of this, in order to be most successful, collectibles are likely to cater primarily to male fantasies. If you can't relate to what men fantasize about because you are a woman, I understand that, but if you disagree with the idea of sexing up female characters, as others have said, it is very likely that practically no female characters would exist in the fantasy genre if they weren't perceivable as sexy, because a lot of males wouldn't find them interesting enough, and there aren't enough women to hold the audience. How many female characters can you think of in the fantasy genre that AREN'T sexy?
Traditionally, female action figures sell very poorly if they aren't beautiful. Sexing up the female character is the best way to make it marketable.
If there really were enough females who were into this genre who were able to spend $225 on a statue of a female character, I think that then you would be guaranteed the kind of version that you would prefer. As an aside, I don't think that this statue is extremely over sexed. I think it's a BIT sexier, but nothing you couldn't let an 8 year old see and not blush. It's not like she's in a bikini. I think it's just that she is made a little more sexy than she is on the show and that some women are offended by the concept of sexing up a female character to any degree, more than she really is JUST TO MAKE HER SEXIER, mostly, rather than the actual sexiness of the statue. I think that women offended are offended more on principle than anything else.
The principle I think involves market forces that are unlikely to ever change. It is surprising that the sexiness of the She Hulk PF was so toned down, but She Hulk is a more popular character, I believe.

Regarding the messages your 11 year old niece is getting, I assume you are saying that she is getting hit on to some degree? If that is the case, I think the only right approach is to teach your children to act the same with strangers online as they would in person, and you should have no problems. It works both ways. Strangers can approach, and they often will, but it is the parent's job to teach the children to be wary, and that wariness shouldn't stop when they are on the phone, or ONLINE. It seems like a double standard of carefulness has developed to a disturbing degree on the part of parents and their children as to their online interactions, as if somehow those aren't REAL people they are talking to. Please parents of the world, do your jobs, and teach your children to chat online no different than if they were talking on the phone, and being careful what they say, as if the person online could find out where they were , just like someone they met in person would. If I had a child, that's what I would teach.

Thank you kindly for composing a thoughtful response to my question, what is the point of making an art piece of a licensed character that is (arguably) far from the source material? I am honestly curious what the reasoning is, and I can see the validity of what you say, which I think boils down to, Sideshow was attempting to appeal to the broadest audience it could in order to fill the 250 plus however many regular orders it wants to turn in order for it to be a profitable venture. I will try to respond in kind.

First, I have to say that Buffy was not a typical mash-mouth fantasy show with a predominantly male audience. A good portion (possibly the majority) of the audience was female. I think this has to do with the fact that the lead is a female hero, specifically, as were most of her crew by the end of the series run. What portion of Buffy's fanbase male or female would bother buying an expensive collectible statue I can't say, but I'd wager it would easily be more than 250. The show was reasonably popular, and the fan base very loyal from what I can tell.

The reason I believe my hypothetical true-to-the-character statue would sell better than this fantasy version is that of the 3 populations Sideshow seemed to be looking for with this statue:

1. those who think it is a good statue as is
2. Willow fans who think it is "good enough"
3. random non-fans who collect beautiful girl statues

while excluding group 4, fans who want an authentic representation of a popular character and/or actress.

I believe those in group 1 would still have bought the statue even without the inflated chest and enhanced height, with character-correct clothing, and in a normal pose. I also think group 2 would become much larger, drawing from group 4. I think the adds would be far in excess of the losses from group 3. Partly this is because, yes, I agree, Sideshow did not go as far as they could have sexing up Willow (I shudder to think what they could have done--think Gentle Giant's Slave Leia statue).

That's about as much on the business side of making statues as I think I can take, so I'll stop with that now. As for why I believe groups 1/2/4 would still appreciate a statue of a skinny, flat-chested, nerdy school girl, honestly, I think if you followed the show, I think you would more readily see why such a character could still be appealing--even adorable, and yes, why one would want a very expensive statue depicting such a character on your display shelf.

As for the bit about my niece, god forbid, no, I didn't say that because she's getting hit on online (at least I hope not--her father would have a fit). It's the EVERY DAY objectification of women that she will need to live with just growing up in this type of society reflected in the attitude that a smart, brave, but under-endowed woman is not worth admiring as-is--that gets me worrying for her.

BTW, why did you assume I am female?

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from.
 
As for the bit about my niece, god forbid, no, I didn't say that because she's getting hit on online (at least I hope not--her father would have a fit). It's the EVERY DAY objectification of women that she will need to live with just growing up in this type of society reflected in the attitude that a smart, brave, but under-endowed woman is not worth admiring as-is--that gets me worrying for her.

Well said.

I believe those in group 1 would still have bought the statue even without the inflated chest and enhanced height, with character-correct clothing, and in a normal pose.

I do too. Sometimes I can't but help think that Sideshow go this stylistic route as they're often not the best at likenesses and so put a heavy spin of their own on the figures to help try and hide the fact.
 
Thank you kindly for composing a thoughtful response to my question, what is the point of making an art piece of a licensed character that is (arguably) far from the source material? I am honestly curious what the reasoning is, and I can see the validity of what you say, which I think boils down to, Sideshow was attempting to appeal to the broadest audience it could in order to fill the 250 plus however many regular orders it wants to turn in order for it to be a profitable venture. I will try to respond in kind.

First, I have to say that Buffy was not a typical mash-mouth fantasy show with a predominantly male audience. A good portion (possibly the majority) of the audience was female. I think this has to do with the fact that the lead is a female hero, specifically, as were most of her crew by the end of the series run. What portion of Buffy's fanbase male or female would bother buying an expensive collectible statue I can't say, but I'd wager it would easily be more than 250. The show was reasonably popular, and the fan base very loyal from what I can tell.

The reason I believe my hypothetical true-to-the-character statue would sell better than this fantasy version is that of the 3 populations Sideshow seemed to be looking for with this statue:

1. those who think it is a good statue as is
2. Willow fans who think it is "good enough"
3. random non-fans who collect beautiful girl statues

while excluding group 4, fans who want an authentic representation of a popular character and/or actress.

I believe those in group 1 would still have bought the statue even without the inflated chest and enhanced height, with character-correct clothing, and in a normal pose. I also think group 2 would become much larger, drawing from group 4. I think the adds would be far in excess of the losses from group 3. Partly this is because, yes, I agree, Sideshow did not go as far as they could have sexing up Willow (I shudder to think what they could have done--think Gentle Giant's Slave Leia statue).

That's about as much on the business side of making statues as I think I can take, so I'll stop with that now. As for why I believe groups 1/2/4 would still appreciate a statue of a skinny, flat-chested, nerdy school girl, honestly, I think if you followed the show, I think you would more readily see why such a character could still be appealing--even adorable, and yes, why one would want a very expensive statue depicting such a character on your display shelf.

As for the bit about my niece, god forbid, no, I didn't say that because she's getting hit on online (at least I hope not--her father would have a fit). It's the EVERY DAY objectification of women that she will need to live with just growing up in this type of society reflected in the attitude that a smart, brave, but under-endowed woman is not worth admiring as-is--that gets me worrying for her.

BTW, why did you assume I am female?

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from.

All excellent points on the statue.

As far as your niece or any other female growing up in Western Society, when have women NOT been objectified? In fact, women are objectified in just about every society on Earth, are they not? Now, if you are talking about the more recent impact of rap videos that have become more mainstream, which reduce women to the level of sex toys and men to money grubbing pimps, yes, that is definitely a problem. I think it best to keep your children sway from that stuff. It is degrading to the human condition, and quite frankly, I believe it is done to dumb down society and dis empower people, in order to make them easier to control, thus distracting them from focusing on real issues in the world, or seeking real self improvement. I think there will always be objectification of women in Western Culture in particular, partly because it is a by product of putting women in advertising in order to sell things, by associating various products in a positive way with human beings, making those products seem more relevant and needed for human life. Sometimes there is objectification of men, too, with chiseled chested shirtless men posing for cologne or whatever, but women are most often selected, simply because women are better looking than men. Women have ALWAYS placed more emphasis on their physical appearance than men do on themselves, as women in general are most concerned with clothing and fashion, hairstyling, and jewelry far more than most men are. I see that as something that the women themselves are responsible for perpetuating. If you are going to advertise something for human beings to buy, you are going to make it seem to most relevant to them and make the product most easy to relate to, and thus you will put a human being in the ad. You are not just going to put ANY type of human being in the ad, you are going to put the most attractive human being in it, and the most attractive gender at that, the fairer sex, women.

The most beautiful people have always been the most likable to most people, being treated like royalty compared to the average looking person, whether male or female. The fact that there is TV and the internet now to make the images of particular beautiful people more widespread DOES seem to increase the pressure on people to look great, and raises expectations of everyone's physical attractiveness. This applies to men as well as women, so women are not singled out in this regard. All my life, I have never felt that they are.
Interestingly, the average breast size of females has increased 25% in the past 15 years, because of the artificial growth hormones fed to livestock.
As far as a REAL female being seen as truly attractive, that comes mostly from charisma, and NOT from breast size. If a woman has a pleasant personality and is an interesting person, (because they have done interesting things, and because they have developed themselves as people, that will give them charisma, that is far more attractive than mere breast size. Of course, you can't just go out and BUY being and interesting person that has charisma, you have to develop it yourself). A lot of girls who have physical beauty believe that developing talent of any kind is totally unnecessary, and focus predominantly on their looks, which only works for 3 or 4 decades tops.
These girls who have no talent are the same ones who are PREOCCUPIED with fashion and celebrities and the media, and popularity, and spend most of their free time yapping on the phone, gossiping to one another. The MORE intelligent, creative girls don't buy into the whole superficial lifestyle, and actually develop themselves a bit, and become interesting people. As far as a smart, brave, but under-endowed woman is not worth admiring as-is-, the question is, to WHO?? I think MOST people are superficial and are not deep thinkers and are not particularly insightful or intelligent. These are the kind of males who have the least respect for women. If THESE kinds of males find your niece less attractive, that's a GOOD thing. Some people look at at all wrong. It discourages the people of superficial character from wanting to take advantage of her. That can be a blessing growing up, so long as she really DOES have a head on her shoulders. It makes it easier for her to focus on what's important growing up. Then, like a lot of other women who grew up awkward, she can be seen as a beautiful woman and appreciated most by the people who are the most worthy.

Now that I consider it, the actress playing Willow certainly falls into the interesting person category, and so I suppose that to artificially sex up the statue is to compromise the integrity of what the character is all about, and so threatens it's authenticity in that capacity, as well. But like I said before, it's a HUMAN issue in sexing up a female statue and putting sex before artistic integrity, and is not just an issue of the objectification of women. To me, the statue just happens to be a woman. Making male characters more muscular than they actually are is just as objectifying, and if you object to objectification, just as offensive.
 
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Sometimes I can't but help think that Sideshow go this stylistic route as they're often not the best at likenesses and so put a heavy spin of their own on the figures to help try and hide the fact.

I think you may have a point. The facial likeness is a bit puffy or more rounded like the classic "cute" features, rather than the slightly more chiseled features that the actress has. I think the actress is adorable just the way she is, particularly in the face. They added weight to her face, like she weighs 10-15 pounds more.
 
The character is made more sexually or physically pleasing in a female way to be more appealing and marketable, because it is a female character.

Basically Sideshow is saying that Alyson Hannigan and the way she actually portrayed Willow on screen are not 'hot' enough for adolescent male fantasies, so she has to be "made more sexually or physically pleasing in a female way".

Funny how all the Buffy fans loved the show and Willow for years without her being "made more sexually or physically pleasing in a female way".

It seems to me that the new Marvel Cyclops PF is extra muscular, significantly what he has traditionally been portrayed as, considering Wolverine has frequently called him "slim" in the past, and this PF is anything but slim. He looks like Schwarzenegger.

Cyclops is a 2D character, from a medium that routinely depicts exaggerated physiques. Buffy was a show with live actors. Even when in comicbook form Buffy characters are not drawn like superheroes.

How ridiculous would it be if James Marsden were given Schwarzenegger's physique? Would you have your breezy that's-not-sexism-attitude if all male characters were posed like the cover of a romance novel.

Edit: By the way James Marsden is extraordinarily attractive without being all muscle bound. You implied muscleier is sexier in reference to male characters and that is just not true for a lot of women, just like I am sure a lot of guys would find an in-character depiction of Alyson Hannigan's natural beauty more appealing than hot-to-trot Willow. I say "guys" because I have a hard time envisioning bi/lesbian women being into this style of art based on my experience.

However, I will be buying this because it is such a cute sculpt (which would include the fact that it is more sexy) even though I have never seen a full episode of Buffy, but I did see the movie, because I find the actress so appealing.

So neither the character of Willow nor even the show itself appeal to you, but you will spend $250 to get a polystone statue of a 'hot' woman. There is something profoundly sad about that.
 
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Basically Sideshow is saying that Alyson Hannigan and the way she actually portrayed Willow on screen are not 'hot' enough for adolescent male fantasies, so she has to be "made more sexually or physically pleasing in a female way".

Funny how all the Buffy fans loved the show and Willow for years without her being "made more sexually or physically pleasing in a female way".



Cyclops is a 2D character, from a medium that routinely depicts exaggerated physiques. Buffy was a show with live actors. Even when in comicbook form Buffy characters are not drawn like superheroes.

How ridiculous would it be if James Marsden were given Schwarzenegger's physique? Would you have your breezy that's-not-sexism-attitude if all male characters were posed like the cover of a romance novel.




So neither the character of Willow nor even the show itself appeal to you, but you will spend $250 to get a polystone statue of a 'hot' woman. There is something profoundly sad about that.

I think she IS hot enough for male fantasies, and the statue would be attractive enough if they were only able to get an EXACT likeness, which is very difficult to do, and so they try to make up for it with more voluptuousness.

My argument that it isn't sexism is based upon my perception that there is nothing inherently discriminatory about a sexy female statue, or even in making a female statue more voluptuous that the original character really is. SexY does not equal sexIST. Like you say, it is just as easy to make a man more physically impressive, and that is pretty common in the fantasy genre. I also do not think that the sexiness of this statue is anywhere near as sexy as a lot of the covers of romance novels, which are written mainly for women. I've seen hundreds, because my mother read tens of thousands. I couldn't see EVERY cover.

As far as the character of Willow not appealing to me, I cannot say. I suspect I would like her. I find the actress to be very attractive and interesting, and I confess, I too, would prefer a more accurate sculpt, particularly the face. I think the body is no more inaccurate than the face is. The facial features have been filled out as much as the body has. As far as the show, I don't like vampires, although the idea of slaying them DOES appeal to me, but I don't particularly like Sarah Michelle Gellar. I find her annoying. The few times when I surf in to see the show on TV, the show has been in slow moments, mainly having to do with interpersonal dramas and relationships, and Willow was never present, which I find to be extremely boring, like soap opera. I was hoping to see her specifically, since I find her fascinating. Alas, I lack the patience to sit through and watch a whole episode when it might be so so.
As far as me spending $225, not $250, but maybe $240 total on a sexy statue of a beautiful character I find interesting, it won't be the first.
I like beauty and art first and foremost. If a piece appeals to me, I buy it, even when I know nothing of the character, and if a piece looks poor to me, I DON'T get it, even though I have the rest of the line, or am a big fan of the franchise. I am not a complete-ist. I simply like art, and buy what I like. As far as the implication that I am particularly interested in a sexy statue, I am not alone, as this is the fantasy genre, and many men fantasize about sexy women, or more specifically in my case, I practically worship beautiful women as the greatest masterpiece and most beautiful creation on Earth.
 
Edit: By the way James Marsden is extraordinarily attractive without being all muscle bound. You implied muscleier is sexier in reference to male characters and that is just not true for a lot of women, just like I am sure a lot of guys would find an in-character depiction of Alyson Hannigan's natural beauty more appealing than hot-to-trot Willow. I say "guys" because I have a hard time envisioning bi/lesbian women being into this style of art based on my experience.

I agree. Not everyone prefers voluptuous women and muscle men. I know men turned off by big ****s and I've met women turned off by big muscles. However, most people seem to find those traits to be most desirable as dictated by the dynamics of biology as in survival of the fittest. As far as bi/lesbian women, I was not aware that they represent a large percentage of this show's fans. I have heard that homosexuals are supposedly 10% of the population. I don't know what the real numbers are. I don't believe that such a small percentage of a market is really worth worrying about, honestly. It would be difficult to make fantasy statues geared mainly to that market and make money, it seems to me, but I could be mistaken. It seems to me that you are particularly sensitive to the dynamic of any sort of sexualization of women for it's own sake, or for marketing purposes, so I understand where you are coming from. I respect that point of view.
It troubles me that most people don't know that the reason why make up on women makes them look more attractive is because it gives the appearance that women have in the heat of sexual passion. The lipstick to simulate the flushing of the lips, and the blush to simulate the flushing of the cheeks, and yet women walk around with this F me face all day long, as if it was normal. Especially troubling is that teenage girls wear it too. Think of how much teen pregnancies would be reduced if teenage girls didn't wear make up. I bet the percentage of difference would be significant.
 
I think some people are making a little too much of this. I,for one, don't blame you for wanting more likeness though I don't think willow is that far off in the statue. Sure, she is probably dressed sexier than she appeared on the show but the proportions really aren't that far off. This picture has her dressed somewhat similar to the statue. You are gonna tell me that sideshow exaggerated her so much that it is preventing you from buying the statue? Oh, and it's no secret that guy's love sexy girls but attacking them for buying the statue for that reason is not really the way to go IMO.
 
As far as bi/lesbian women, I was not aware that they represent a large percentage of this show's fans.

Well a lot of geek girls idenitify as bisexual in my experience and more importantly the character Willow is bisexual (she is expressly depicited as such in the course of the show). Although Ivanova on B5 was the first bisexual, male or female, I can think of on television, Willow was the first where it was a big deal to the fan base.

It seems to me that you are particularly sensitive to the dynamic of any sort of sexualization of women for it's own sake, or for marketing purposes, so I understand where you are coming from. I respect that point of view.

Yes that is where I am coming from and I appreciate that you have clearly thought about my position.

Think of how much teen pregnancies would be reduced if teenage girls didn't wear make up. I bet the percentage of difference would be significant.

I do not like the trend towards earlier sexualisation either, but it does not have to be all or nothing with things like make-up. That is a slippery road on the way to fundamentalist religious restrictions on women's appearance. Burqas cut down on teen pregnancy something fierce. Further boys/men who impregnate teen girls bear equal responsibility. Putting all blame for sexual chastity on women is again a common reactionary response.
 
I agree with Star Puffs in the point that there wasn't really any need to portray this character in such a way.

There are already enough sexualized comic females, movie characters, etc etc.. and the fact that the character of Willow (who to tell the truth is an EXCEPTION in a TV show nowadays) had to be portrayed in a way that doesn't correspond to her character...well, let's just say I understand her "frustratiion".

It is the same as if now Sideshow portrayed Galadriel, an almost asexual being, posing with a lock of hair between her lips and a lascivious look (insert joke), obviously a pose that wouldn't suit her AT ALL. And I am sure FANS would complain about the inaccuracy.
 
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Oh, and it's no secret that guy's love sexy girls but attacking them for buying the statue for that reason is not really the way to go IMO.

My criticism has been aimed at Sideshow, the responsible party, but that obviously challenges some people here on a personal level. When they respond to me, I sometimes respond to them, so I have not been 'attacking' anyone for buying it. That kind of characterisation of my comments is just a dodge of the real issue.
 
It is the same as if now Sideshow portrayed Galadriel, an almost asexual being, posing with a lock of hair between her lips and a lascivious look (insert joke), obviously a pose that wouldn't suit her AT ALL. And I am sure FANS would complain about the inaccuracy.

Oy, the Galadriel PF. Amidst the sea of Marvel T&A, what Faustian bargain did some poor artist at Sideshow have to make to get that piece made?
 
Well a lot of geek girls idenitify as bisexual in my experience and more importantly the character Willow is bisexual (she is expressly depicited as such in the course of the show). Although Ivanova on B5 was the first bisexual, male or female, I can think of on television, Willow was the first where it was a big deal to the fan base.



Yes that is where I am coming from and I appreciate that you have clearly thought about my position.



I do not like the trend towards earlier sexualisation either, but it does not have to be all or nothing with things like make-up. That is a slippery road on the way to fundamentalist religious restrictions on women's appearance. Burqas cut down on teen pregnancy something fierce. Further boys/men who impregnate teen girls bear equal responsibility. Putting all blame for sexual chastity on women is again a common reactionary response.

Ok


Wearing make up makes teenage girls look older and more sexually attractive at a time when they are ostensible are not supposed to be having sex. The act of wearing make up is a deliberate one that takes time and effort in order to do. It is inconsistent to wear make up if you aren't supposed to be having sex. Or ARE they??? Ahem. PUTTING on make up which makes pregnancy more likely is not in the same category as NOT PUTTING on a burgas in order to more readily facilitate it. I think it is reasonable to say that teenage girls who go out of their way to represent themselves as over 18 by wearing make up are the ones MOSTLY at fault if they get pregnant by someone who thought they were over 18, because it was the girl's lie that they were over 18 that led to it.
I also put that in the same category as when a child breaks a window. Who is responsible for the child's actions? Not the child, the PARENTS. The parents should be the ones to blame when their teen daughters get pregnant, because they allowed them to walk out of the house looking like they did. No parental responsibility. The teen girl is in effect, lying or teasing sexually when she wears make up when she isn't supposed to be having sex, because she is saying in a universal language, "look at me and how I look like I look when I am having sex." It is a much more powerful message than having a T shirt on that says," think about me having sex" because THAT could only be understood by someone who could read that written language, whereas, make up taps into the universal language of biology, the psychological response to a stimuli that has been ingrained for hundreds of thousands of years.

Point is, that teens wearing make up at an early age is I believe to be a gateway to the sexual objectification of women to an unnecessary and avoidable degree.
Yes, it takes two to tango, but I think that it is unfair not to point out that in your argument that girls can walk around with make up on giving the come hither look all day long, and boys and men are supposed to totally ignore this and control themselves and keep it in their pants and make no attempt to approach. Girls wearing make up put out the mating call to all, and then expect all males to be on their BEST behavior? It's too much to ask for some males.
I'm not putting ALL blame on the females, I'm just suggesting that they start it by wearing make up. Wearing make up says sex is definitely a possibility, while not wearing says, sex is pretty unlikely from that female. I always have self control, so I hear what you are saying, but objectively, I have to recognize the female role in it. Teen girls wearing make up sets a cause in motion, and once a cause is set in motion, it requires control, sometimes a lot of self control to stop from getting to a certain point, which is more than some people have. Its kind of like cartoon characters advertising children's sugar laden cereals. Makes them more likely to want some of that.
 
It is inconsistent to wear make up if you aren't supposed to be having sex. Or ARE they??? Ahem. PUTTING on make up which makes pregnancy more likely is not in the same category as NOT PUTTING on a burgas in order to more readily facilitate it.

Wow. Firstly your full blown obsession with teen pregnancy is duly noted. Teen pregnancy may not be ideal but it is hardly the end of the world. Teen pregnancy was a norm until modern societies.

I think it is reasonable to say that teenage girls who go out of their way to represent themselves as over 18 by wearing make up are the ones MOSTLY at fault if they get pregnant by someone who thought they were over 18, because it was the girl's lie that they were over 18 that led to it.

Make up is just make up. People wear it in theatrical productions, to cover birth marks or just to have fun. You obviously have serious issues if you interpret all make-up as 'ready to ____'.

The parents should be the ones to blame when their teen daughters get pregnant, because they allowed them to walk out of the house looking like they did.

Good think Buffy's mom didn't share your medieval attitude or no slaying or hanging out at the Bronze after hours.

I'm not putting ALL blame on the females, I'm just suggesting that they start it by wearing make up. Wearing make up says sex is definitely a possibility, while not wearng says, sex is pretty unlikely from that female.

Teen girls wearing make up sets a cause in motion, and once a cause is set in motion, it requires control, sometimes a lot of self control to stop from getting to a certain point, which is more than some people have.

Your mindset is disgraceful. Blaming women for appearing attractive is the foundation of misogyny and can lead to extreme forms of suppressing female sexuality like burqas and female genital mutilation.

I thought you were just a fan boy that liked sexy statues, but you are clearly a seriously ____ed up fundamentalist misogynist. The fact you have never watched a full episode of Buffy hardly surprises me now. You would be aghast at those teen age sluts running around in make-up, pretending to be 18, with their horrible parents to blame for all of it. The horror. The horror.
 
I think it is reasonable to say that teenage girls who go out of their way to represent themselves as over 18 by wearing make up are the ones MOSTLY at fault if they get pregnant by someone who thought they were over 18, because it was the girl's lie that they were over 18 that led to it.

I also put that in the same category as when a child breaks a window. Who is responsible for the child's actions? Not the child, the PARENTS. The parents should be the ones to blame when their teen daughters get pregnant, because they allowed them to walk out of the house looking like they did. No parental responsibility. The teen girl is in effect, lying or teasing sexually when she wears make up when she isn't supposed to be having sex, because she is saying in a universal language, "look at me and how I look like I look when I am having sex."

Girls wearing make up put out the mating call to all, and then expect all males to be on their BEST behavior? It's too much to ask for some males.

I'm not putting ALL blame on the females, I'm just suggesting that they start it by wearing make up. Wearing make up says sex is definitely a possibility, while not wearing says, sex is pretty unlikely from that female.



Now there's something you don't hear every day.

Congratulations. I'm literally speechless.
 
Wow. Firstly your full blown obsession with teen pregnancy is duly noted. Teen pregnancy may not be ideal but it is hardly the end of the world. Teen pregnancy was a norm until modern societies.



Make up is just make up. People wear it in theatrical productions, to cover birth marks or just to have fun. You obviously have serious issues if you interpret all make-up as 'ready to ____'.



Good think Buffy's mom didn't share your medieval attitude or no slaying or hanging out at the Bronze after hours.





Your mindset is disgraceful. Blaming women for appearing attractive is the foundation of misogyny and can lead to extreme forms of suppressing female sexuality like burqas and female genital mutilation.

I thought you were just a fan boy that liked sexy statues, but you are clearly a seriously ____ed up fundamentalist misogynist. The fact you have never watched a full episode of Buffy hardly surprises me now. You would be aghast at those teen age sluts running around in make-up, pretending to be 18, with their horrible parents to blame for all of it. The horror. The horror.

Well, my point in high teen pregnancy is that it is directly caused by the sexual objectification of women, which is exacerbated by wearing a certain type of make up.

Make up is NOT just make up. Different make up imparts different appearances. The sort of make up I was referring to is the sort you see most women wear, particularly fashion models, and when women go out on the town, for example. I thought you knew what I was referring to.

Women being attractive in WHAT WAY is the question, and when it's typical make up for improving a woman's "attractiveness", that type of make up CAUSES the sexual objectification of women. I personally do not have a problem with this when full grown women want to, because that is their prerogative if they want to present themselves in that fashion, which IS to sexually objectify themselves. However, if females do it when they have no intention of having sex, that is logically inconsistent, and therefore hypocritical. That is what I am saying. I am just making an objective observation and making a logical assessment of the behavior. I am not making a moral judgment. I am merely saying that people's actions should be consistent with their stated intent if they wish to be taken seriously and to have any real credibility.
It is interesting how if you make a STATUE of as woman look sexier, it's the sexual objectification of women, but if it's a woman putting on make up to look sexier, it's NOT the sexual objectification of women, just because women do it to themselves. It's a double standard.
I think that the best way for anyone to be attractive is to be fit and healthy, and thus they exude that glow that that gives people, which is indeed very attractive and makes people beautiful without any inherent sexual connotation, unlike wearing make up.
 
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Now there's something you don't hear every day.

Congratulations. I'm literally speechless.

It's no different than if someone sells you are car that they KNOW is unsafe, and then you get in a car accident because of mechanical failure and you get injured. Don't you think that the person who sold you the car, representing it as mechanically sound, should be liable? Why would sex and pregnancy liability be any different? What about due disclosure and honesty in personal dealings? If someone who had HIV or herpes or some other STD and knew it had sex with someone and didn't tell them, wouldn't THAT be wrong? Same principle. No due disclosure or honesty. That person deliberately committed an act that caused someone else to have trouble, by misrepresentation, did they not? It could have been prevented by them by being honest, could it not? Yes. Same principle. If a teen girl gets pregnant by an adult who would not have had sex with her if he knew she was underage, who only had sex with her because he thought she was OF age, because she misrepresented her age, then of course it's her fault she got pregnant from an adult. When people cause situations that were only possible because they misrepresented themselves or something else, they are the ones at fault for what happened as a result. Of course, the teen girl's parents are responsible because they raised someone who would misrepresent themselves or they are at fault for being not competent enough to prevent their teen girl from developing the flawed character that led her to misrepresent. Not ALL teen girls do such things, you know.... Some have character honesty and integrity because they believe that honor and integrity is more important than excitement and fun.
 
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