This is everything wrong with this hobby in one photo.

[Star Puffs]

See my position on this is that, after a couple of tongue-in-cheek throw away lines, you called me a coward and a hyprocrite.

Then I take you to task on the very issue over which you leveled those insults at me, and you avoid all engagement on the matter.

You're the champion of vitriol in this thread. Kamandi plays the gentleman to give you an out, to finish this unedifying spectacle of a thread with a conciliatory last word, and you have to get another dig in at those who've challenged you, framed as usual in passive-aggressive poor me-ism.

Now you're telling Kamandi, and by implication other fathers of daughters, what kind of world our girls will be growing up in. My girls will know feckless victimhood when they see it, because neither of their parents will indulge it. They'll understand that "b-b-b-u-t I'm a poor widdle girl in this mean, howwible man's world" won't get them far.

_________________

You really are enraged at my ignoring you. You certainly are Johnny on the spot when I mention you after being gone nearly a day.

Your hypocrisy is once again glaringly manifest in your casual dismissal of your ad hominems as "tongue-in-cheek throw away lines" whereas I am the "champion of vitriol".

And thanks for the outrage at my comments to Kamandi. He brought up being a father of his own volition. I told him how I see the world based on my experience as a woman. It was not an attack on him in any way.

The fact that remark sets you off in another bit of rage is a farce.

 

[devilof76]

You graduate from thenammagazine school of argumentation, or what?

 

[Lejuan]

...and you said you were done with this thread. Last word's a biyatch ain't it?

 

[Frank]

Women would never fantasize about wearing sexy skimpy outfits. It's all an evil male hypnotic prenatal patriarchal alien probe conspiracy.

 

[devilof76]

...an evil male hypnotic prenatal patriarchal alien probe conspiracy.

That's hot.

 

[Solidus]

*insert popcorn gif*

 

[Frank]

That's hot.

Speaking of hot... what if that custom was made by a lesbian?

 

[karamazov80]

Why is it that women in action films tend to wear skin tight leather/latex outfits? The chaffing must be horrendous!

I have very consciously avoided this thread, and really, I don't have anything to add to the specific discussions that have been going on. But your post reminds me of one unfortunate truth--women in film tend to have short shelf lives, and when their looks start to go with age, they tend to receive less and less offers for quality roles. Faye Dunaway was one of the most acclaimed actresses of the late '60s and '70s (Bonnie and Clyde, Chinatown, Network, etc.), but was reduced to crap like Supergirl after that. Julia Roberts, Geena Davis, and Demi Moore seem to be going through the same sort of thing nowadays. They get gimmick roles or TV shows if they're lucky. Not that men are immune--Robert Redford is a good example of a guy who was a huge film superstar until his looks started to fade--but in general men seem to get consistently good, high profile roles as their careers go on while women, with a handful of exceptions like Judie Dench--don't.

I don't feel too bad for these women, by the way. They get their chances because of their looks, and get fame and fortune because of it, so it's only fair that they are judged on that criteria. But I think there is a gender bias in Hollywood as actors/actresses age.

 

[Star Puffs]

Again with the evasions.

What am I evading exactly? You demanded some ideal of "objectivity" from me and now offer your usual black-and-white worldview:

There's rational and irrational.

I see the world as much more nuanced, even if I have strong opinions on individual subjects. Remember the first time you ever contacted me? You and I have strakly different ways of thinking and looking at the world. I am surprised to see you still grappling with that.

Stating an opinion with no intention of supporting it with any kind of reasoned defense is irrational on its face.

That is totally disingenuous. I have presented additional counter arguments (e.g. the issue of women dressing in sexy outfits at cons, the right to make art) but of course that does not fall under "reasoned defense".

Can you cite such a compliment paid in the past to someone with whom you strongly disagree on this site? You have very strong views and opposition to you is q.e.d. "irrational" in your view as far as I have seen.

Your position has not earned the right to be taken seriously, as you've smeared, then dismissed, every criticism.

For all your posturing about "rational" thought, why would i have offered an opinion I knew to be wrong? In other words, of course I dismiss criticism that i find invalid or fallacious.

I leveled some ad hominems of my own in response to the string of personal attacks against me, which you do not have the integrity to acknowledge.

Did you ever stop to think how many of the comments directed at me had nothing to do with your own professed concern of "rational and irrational"? What does my being allegedly being ugly or a lesbian have to do with a "rational" argument? What for that matter does my tone have to do with "rational"?

An ugly, man-hating, lesbian, feminist speaking the objective truth in shrill, grating tones is still speaking the truth, right?

You can't even answer Jen or Shell (women who comprehend the notion of having reasons for their beliefs).

I was just finishing my response to Jen as you wrote.

All I saw Shell say was that she is a lesbian. Given that I got accussed of being a lesbian myself, which is homophobic, and had two recognized homophobe (DiFabio, Snake Doctor) busy here, I did not want to go there frankly.

But don't bother on my account. If you find it to your advantage to treat your feelings as some kind of metaphysical absolute, I won't try to make you change. I also won't act as though your deluded self-cloistering is anything but.

Not everything is about "metaphysical absolutes". A polemic is my opinion that I wanted to express. You see me as irrational, well I see you as lacking the capacity to process nuance. We will never see eye to eye on anything, except maybe Admiral Akbar.

 

[devilof76]

Lots of words.

Speaking of hot... what if that custom was made by a lesbian?

 

[Star Puffs]

...and you said you were done with this thread. Last word's a biyatch ain't it?

Yes, yes, it is. Easier said than done I admit.

 

[Frank]

I have very consciously avoided this thread, and really, I don't have anything to add to the specific discussions that have been going on. But your post reminds me of one unfortunate truth--women in film tend to have short shelf lives, and when their looks start to go with age, they tend to receive less and less offers for quality roles. Faye Dunaway was one of the most acclaimed actresses of the late '60s and '70s (Bonnie and Clyde, Chinatown, Network, etc.), but was reduced to crap like Supergirl after that. Julia Roberts, Geena Davis, and Demi Moore seem to be going through the same sort of thing nowadays. They get gimmick roles or TV shows if they're lucky. Not that men are immune--Robert Redford is a good example of a guy who was a huge film superstar until his looks started to fade--but in general men seem to get consistently good, high profile roles as their careers go on while women, with a handful of exceptions like Judie Dench--don't.

I don't feel too bad for these women, by the way. They get their chances because of their looks, and get fame and fortune because of it, so it's only fair that they are judged on that criteria. But I think there is a gender bias in Hollywood as actors/actresses age.

I don't know. I think the problem is certain women can't break out of the romantic lead and settle into a more matriarchal or supporting roles. Perhaps it has to do with an unwillingness on their part too.

 

[Boba Ben]

I have very consciously avoided this thread, and really, I don't have anything to add to the specific discussions that have been going on. But your post reminds me of one unfortunate truth--women in film tend to have short shelf lives, and when their looks start to go with age, they tend to receive less and less offers for quality roles. Faye Dunaway was one of the most acclaimed actresses of the late '60s and '70s (Bonnie and Clyde, Chinatown, Network, etc.), but was reduced to crap like Supergirl after that. Julia Roberts, Geena Davis, and Demi Moore seem to be going through the same sort of thing nowadays. They get gimmick roles or TV shows if they're lucky. Not that men are immune--Robert Redford is a good example of a guy who was a huge film superstar until his looks started to fade--but in general men seem to get consistently good, high profile roles as their careers go on while women, with a handful of exceptions like Judie Dench--don't.

I don't feel too bad for these women, by the way. They get their chances because of their looks, and get fame and fortune because of it, so it's only fair that they are judged on that criteria. But I think there is a gender bias in Hollywood as actors/actresses age.

I love Geena Davis. Did you know she's a champion archer and a member of Mensa? Pretty awesome.

I also feel sorry for poor Clint Howard. He was cute on Gentle Ben and then he blossomed into an ugly adult and could only get roles in B horror movies playing creepy a creepy ice cream man or some other similar character.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

I was just finishing my response to Jen as you wrote.

All I saw Shell say was that she is a lesbian. Given that I got accussed of being a lesbian myself, which is homophobic, and had two recognized homophobe (DiFabio, Snake Doctor) busy here, I did not want to go there frankly.

Apparently I'm a "recognized homophobe". Heh. I don't recall even mentioning anything related. Good grief. Recognized by whom? For what? Do I get a trophy or something?

(Then again, you thought somebody else mistaking you for a lesbian was also 'homophobic' -- so your grasp of the term may be loose).

SnakeDoc

 

[Jen]

I agree that it would be nice to see more women active on this board and you are right this is definitely more of a boy's club and probably intimidating or a complete turn off to many women. But like most things - once you start to participate and get to know people you see that they are a good bunch of guys.

I grew up with mostly guy friends and so seeing some guy drooling over a sexy model or movie star or making a silly custom really just doesn't bother me. I know it's just a fantasy for them just as I have my own fantasies of some male actors. To me it is just all in fun...it's how they treat me as a person or friend that matters and I've yet to know a guy who collects sexy statues (like the AH Marvel women, for example) who wasn't also respectful and courteous in person. I just can't get upset over this type of art. I may not like all of it...but that is true with all art.

And to be honest, I think if someone made a Black Widow in full Iron Man suit many men would like that and buy it. Look at how popular women in action movies/video games are on this site. Alice from Resident Evil, Beckinsale as Selene in Underworld or in Van Helsing, Ripley in the Alien franchise, Zoe in Serenity, Buffy, Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2. Sure, many of their outfits were impractical for what they were doing...but these are strong women characters kicking *** who I would say are cheered and admired by most of the men on this board. Yes, there will be some who may prefer their women in an insubordinate role...and have figures/statues that reflect that...but you can find that anywhere and with just about everything. I've never felt that it was a big issue here.

Perhaps I misunderstood your original post. Some of your comments seemed to be attacks on the male collectors here and rather than creating an atmosphere where this could be discussed without major incident, I felt it was probably going to put many guys on defense. Which it did...and yes there were some immature and inappropriate comments...which I think was to be expected on a site like this (and though expected does not make it ok). But I felt there could be some interesting and meaningful discussion as well. As you said there were several men who agreed with you...and I bet there are many more who do as well but I just feel the way this was brought up created unnecessary friction. Sure there may be times to be the "shrill harpy" to get your voice heard...but I'm not sure if that works well on this board. Just my opinion and observation. Many if not most of the men on this board are married, have daughters, sisters, etc... I would strike up a discussion that would appeal to that aspect of their lives when discussing women being objectified in movies or with figures and ask what their honest opinions are on it. There will be the jokesters...but I think many would give a thoughtful response.

 

[Uncanny Web-Slinger]

And to be honest, I think if someone made a Black Widow in full Iron Man suit many men would like that and buy it. Look at how popular women in action movies/video games are on this site. Alice from Resident Evil, Beckinsale as Selene in Underworld or in Van Helsing, Ripley in the Alien franchise, Zoe in Serenity, Buffy, Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2. Sure, many of their outfits were impractical for what they were doing...but these are strong women characters kicking *** who I would say are cheered and admired by most of the men on this board. Yes, there will be some who may prefer their women in an insubordinate role...and have figures/statues that reflect that...but you can find that anywhere and with just about everything. I've never felt that it was a big issue here.

 

[crows]

Women would never fantasize about wearing sexy skimpy outfits. It's all an evil male hypnotic prenatal patriarchal alien probe conspiracy.

same reason women get **** implants, they are being brainwashed by men somehow
Why else would they get them?

 

[Adoptedscot]

All I saw Shell say was that she is a lesbian. Given that I got accussed of being a lesbian myself, which is homophobic, and had two recognized homophobe (DiFabio, Snake Doctor) busy here, I did not want to go there frankly.

I write lenghty posts explaining my opinion and reasoning and on this issue and all you zero in on is one post I made saying I'm a lesbian.

Selective reading at it's finest

...and just FYI, saying 'I got accused of being a lesbian myself' can also be deemed as a derogatory statement. As if someone 'accusing' you of being so would mean you are a lesser individual, the inference is there. However I will state I'm not offended by it, I just wanted to point that out. I know there are homophobe's here, personally I don't care. If they are offended by me breathing, that's their problem, not mine.
Anywho, that's a seperate issue and I'm not gonna get into all that here, this thread is crazy enough.

Yes we women are few here on the Forum, but from my experience that's not because women stay away thinking that it's a boys club, it's because they think my collecting is bizarre They don't understand why I collect, just like I don't understand why they spend money on things they do. It's all personal preference.

As I explained in my other posts which you may not have seen because you concentrated on my being a lesbian, yes there are some bad pieces out there, however the one in the opening post is tame.
Yes there is what I call 'plastic porn' some of which I despise, but again I would not claim that even they are 'everything wrong with the hobby'. That is a very big claim to be making and a few perceived impractical outifits on figures or a figure you claim to be objectifying in no way covers 'everything'. Some of those more extreme pieces may be in bad taste in my opinion but some people like them, for others it's cultural and they are acceptable and collectable.

At the end of the day collecting is a very personal experience, everyone collects what they like as an individual, I know I do and have had items/prints other people don't like, but that doesn't make me wrong for having them. As much as I may not like some of these extreme pieces I am not gonna call people wrong for collecting them. As long as they don't shove pictures of them in my face, I really couldn't care less what people collect. I may not understand some of the pieces in someone else's collection, but it is exactly that, someone else's collection not mine, so I'm not gonna worry about it.
By the same token, to me, one person trying to preach to a Forum of collectors that this one thing, this one aspect of collecting is 'everything wrong with the hobby' because of their own opinions on feminism, glorification and objectification is more annoying than the very tame yet offending picture this thread started with.

It's a hobby, enjoy it rather than putting it under a microscope trying to determine 'everything' that's wrong with it.
This is all imo of course.


x

 

[devilof76]

Jen and Shell...rationality at its finest. You guys are my heroes.

 

[Star Puffs]

I write lenghty posts explaining my opinion and reasoning and on this issue and all you zero in on is one post I made saying I'm a lesbian.

Selective reading at it's finest

That was really just random. After seeing the comments directed at me, your comment naturally jumped out at me. It was not some calculated slight. DiFabio, with whom I was actively arguing when I saw it, has made homophobic remarks over time and I did not want to start yet another tangent amidst the forest of strawmen.

...and just FYI, saying 'I got accused of being a lesbian myself' can also be deemed as a derogatory statement. As if someone 'accusing' you of being so would mean you are a lesser individual, the inference is there. However I will state I'm not offended by it, I just wanted to point that out.

Speaking of selective reading, my dear, I specifically called that "homophobic" in that post and called out two people for being homophobes. I called it an "accusation" only because that is how the person saying it framed it.

In the past I have had people actually badger me in PMs asking if I am a lesbian, for simply standing up for LGBT people on here. It hurts having you nit-pick that.

I would not claim that even they are 'everything wrong with the hobby'. That is a very big claim to be making and a few perceived impractical outifits on figures or a figure you claim to be objectifying in no way covers 'everything'.

That was my headline and people are supposed to actually read the article. This forum is riddled with hyperbole of that nature. As I told nova, I should have included an anti-Ironman joke as I originally wrote the message to show that more.

...but it is exactly that, someone else's collection not mine, so I'm not gonna worry about it.
By the same token, to me, one person trying to preach to a Forum of collectors that this one thing, this one aspect of collecting is 'everything wrong with the hobby' because of their own opinions on feminism, glorification and objectification is more annoying than the very tame yet offending picture this thread started with.

People go on at length here constantly about some fairly extreme views, we have some ardent anti-government libertarians, we have the American gun crowd, we have some "Barry Soetoro" conspiracy theory types, we have some overtly religious people...so freaking out about "feminism" as some uniquely unwelcome perspective, is EXACTLY the problem. It shows that women with differing views are uniquely unwelcome.

And since my point with regard to the statue is that that aesthetic may keep away some women, that concerns me further. I am not 'one of the boys' and I guess this thread shows that quite vividly.

From an even wider perspective, left of centre views are met with some unusual degrees of hostility on this site. Poor darkartist89 admitted he used welfare once for a time and the wolves descended upon him. When Canadians, Europeans and others have offered what are mainstream political views in their nations, the rightwing American crowd has gone ape s**t.

Yet no one ever rages at the Ayn Rand types how they should "GTFO" and go to such and such site, as SixMillionDollarMan Guy has said to me at least twice in the past year.

I am a useful contributor to this hobby as some who sews and sells custom clothes. Sewing is ironically a traditionally female skill, yet being a woman true to my worldview gets me measurable hostility. SO forgive me if I do not take quite the live and let live attitude of you and Jen. I am glad you ladies fit in better, but I have a legitimate interest in this hobby and should be able to offer negative critiques that are relevant (without being told I am ugly, PMSing, man-hating, lesbian, feminist she-devil).