What's Happening in the UK?

[Voorhees27]

I would amend that and say religion has always been the main reason for nasty greedy people in positions of power to manipulate those with less power and influence to wage war against others. If you are objective you have to admit that religion is responsible for a lot of beautiful and good things in the world.

That's my personal belief as well.

 

[The Josh]

I would amend that and say religion has always been the main reason for nasty greedy people in positions of power to manipulate those with less power and influence to wage war against others. If you are objective you have to admit that religion is responsible for a lot of beautiful and good things in the world.

I would agree with that.

 

[pixletwin]

"Nasty greedy people in positions of power to manipulate" tend to use any tool that will be effective. Religion isn't the only tool. Atheism can be a tool too. Really any "idea" can be used on the right person. To single out religion as the only tool is a bit disingenuous.

 

[Rorywan]

These are actual verses but taken completely out of context.

For example the context behind 8:12 is that it was a statement against those who wage war against the Prophet (PBUH) and his followers. So it is only applicable in a context when war is being waged upon you.



Now some clerics will distort this and say oh look the US is killing your innocent brethren in Afghanistan/Iraq/Pakistan - you are justified in killing them.

That is nonsense - the innocent people of the US are not the ones killing these people, it is the soldiers - and yes if a soldier comes and attacks your innocent family - the Quran gives you the right to self defence.

The other verses you quoted above are also to be understood in their proper context. This is why you can't let any idiot preach. They pick and choose lines and use them to their end.

That's the danger right there with all religions.
Even out of context, it's not really sweetness and light though is it? Yikes, it's not hard to see how people intent on mis-quoting to instill even more hatred could use that material.

 

[intothevoid]

No other religion will do?

For Saudi Arabia, no, since they house the Holy lands and Holy sites.
But I have no problem with anyone having any religion or lack of religion. Live and let live I say, and so does the Quran. The only place where violence is mentioned is in acts of self defence.

I think his real first choice would be replacing america but he doesn't want to admit it here.

Shows your delusion that you have to try and guess what i'm really trying to say, when in fact what i'm trying to say in the words that you're reading.

Anyone seeking religion is likely misguided. You are aligning yourself by choice as a grown man, with a group who claims to be the sole proprietor of eternal happieness and the one true all knowing god with the full knowlege that other such contradictory groups exist and still claiming it will end in peace? That my friend is the definition of silly.

You can believe what you want about me or anyone else. Live and let live. That is what I believe and that's what my religion has taught me too.

I'm essentially atheist aswell. I don't claim to know for a fact that there's no god or afterlife but I am more inclined to believe that there isn't. So perhaps I'm agnostic with stronger leanings towards atheism. And I doubt that will ever change.

So it does frustrate and anger me a huge amount the idea of people killing other people because of religious beliefs. I think its a terrible waste of life over nothing. That guy murdered in the street in the UK is just dead. And when his murderers die they too will be just dead. I think if people the world over believed that this life on Earth is the only existance they will ever experience there would be less killing, stress on the word 'less'.

You're entitled to your views and I can certainly understand why so many are disillusioned with religion as a concept given all that is being done in the world in the name of religion.

However, the problem doesn't lie with religion but with people. If only more people could take a step back and think logically - what God would condone violence or hate in any form? None. If only people were that logical.

 

[Deckard]

Religion has always been the main reason for war and will bring on the end of this world as well most probably.

Agreed. We're already dead. Isreal and Pakistan will set off a nuclear holocaust or global warming will wipe us out due to the refusal of religious folks to believe it's a real thing.

 

[Vitus]

For Saudi Arabia, no, since they house the Holy lands and Holy sites.

Here we go again, lets take it from the top lol.
Maybe you should check your delusions.

 

[Crimsonbob]

Agreed. We're already dead. Isreal and Pakistan will set off a nuclear holocaust or global warming will wipe us out due to the refusal of religious folks to believe it's a real thing.

I just hope aliens come along and wake up this crazy backward planet. There is more chance of that happening than some ancient man made myths coming true.

 

[a-dev]

If only more people could take a step back and think logically - what God would condone violence or hate in any form? None. If only people were that logical.

The thing is what do I know about what a God would or wouldn't condone. I see that as just another presumption without basis. Certainly if I believed in God I would hope what you say is true.

 

[The Josh]

"Nasty greedy people in positions of power to manipulate" tend to use any tool that will be effective. Religion isn't the only tool. Atheism can be a tool too. Really any "idea" can be used on the right person. To single out religion as the only tool is a bit disingenuous.

You can believe what you want about me or anyone else. Live and let live. That is what I believe and that's what my religion has taught me too.

My faith is a big part of my life. I'm not traditional in my christian views for at least some of the more extreme idiots in my faith, but my approach to live and let live is the same. I will not disrespect someone for feeling different and would expect the same.

 

[intothevoid]

The thing is what do I know about what a God would or wouldn't condone. I see that as just another presumption without basis. Certainly if I believed in God I would hope what you say is true.

In many ways religion to me is just as much about what I feel inside and what is written in The Quran. Given my own experiences in life, I believe God communicates with people directly (feel free to ridicule me but i've had some pretty outlandish things happen to me in the past year) - perhaps ones conscious can be seen as an embodiment of that.

At its core I believe all religion is about giving people a moral code to live by. Looked at that way, I can't see how any God would condone anything which is unjust or hateful.

My faith is a big part of my life. I'm not traditional in my christian views for at least some of the more extreme idiots in my faith, but my approach to live and let live is the same. I will not disrespect someone for feeling different and would expect the same.

Right on.

 

[Lejuan]

I feel like I should preface this post with a declaration that I grew up around many Muslims, shared in many of their rituals and and have established enduring friendships with some of them. I love them as individuals.

BUT.

The idea that 'Islam is a religion of peace' doesn't bare out in my reckoning. When I look at the nations on this earth where Islam is at the heart of their social, cultural, justice and political structures, I see a gaggle of failed wrecks. A group of nations where the subjugation and indoctrination of their citizenry into Islam is the norm; where other religious groups are marginalised and persecuted. The very notion of a secular society is anathema to them.

A secular society is at the heart of self-determination. Until Islam can see to it that it extricates itself away from the governing power structures of nations, it will always be a suspect religion in my book, irrespective of its multitude of peace-loving adherents.

 

[Crimsonbob]

I dont condone the existence of a god or creator as that is beyond understanding. I think as long as people live in harmony and dont hurt anyone who gives a crap ,what they believe,what the colour of their skin is or if they are gay/straight or talk to tree's.

Personally it drives me friggin nuts and i truly dislike religions as they are atm and how they force themselves on the world. Wether it's muslims calling us all infidels or the pope saying you cant wear a condom.....i dont give a crap just be tolerant and let people do their own thing.

As a non religeous person seeing all this from the outside makes life for so many a misery to look at from the back and forth bull**** wars in the name of some god or another, that we may as well still be in the middle ages.

 

[intothevoid]

I feel like I should preface this post with a declaration that I grew up around many Muslims, shared in many of their rituals and and have established enduring friendships with some of them. I love them as individuals.

BUT.

The idea that 'Islam is a religion of peace' doesn't bare out in my reckoning. When I look at the nations on this earth where Islam is at the heart of their social, cultural, justice and political structures, I see a gaggle of failed wrecks. A group of nations where the subjugation and indoctrination of their citizenry into Islam is the norm; where other religious groups are marginalised and persecuted. The very notion of a secular society is anathema to them.

A secular society is at the heart of self-determination. Until Islam can see to it that it extricates itself away from the governing power structures of nations, it will always be a suspect religion in my book, irrespective of its multitude of peace-loving adherents.

What you describe is not a fault of Islam, it's the fault of those who are using it as a means of controlling/ruling over people, and selectively applying Islamic principals and distorting others.

The Quran is not incompatible with secularism.

 

[Lejuan]

What you describe is not a fault of Islam, it's the fault of those who are using it as a means of controlling/ruling over people, and selectively applying Islamic principals and distorting others.

The Quran is not incompatible with secularism.

True, and historically Christianity certainly doesn't have a stellar record in this regard. But Christian societies have moved on. Islamic societies are still rooted in the middle ages, and they are not going to extricate themselves from this until they stop blaming the West for all their failings and embrace secularism.

I also observe in Australia the failure of Muslims to properly integrate into mainstream society. The vast majority will not intermarry, as the families demand conversion to Islam of would-be suitors. There is a vocal minority who are demanding the recognition of specific Islamic 'laws' to be accommodated in the mainstream law system. It goes on. The problem is that many Muslims, like many Jews, see themselves as Muslims first and Australian citizens second.

It's often hard for people to separate the principles from the practice

 

[Crimsonbob]

Neither have moved on they are both stuck in the middle ages.

 

[devilof76]

You're entitled to your views and I can certainly understand why so many are disillusioned with religion as a concept given all that is being done in the world in the name of religion.

I have never judged a religion basedon how its adherents behave. Holy books can be interpreted too many different ways (and usually are, particularly within a religion itself). I judge religions based on reason, and they all fall short by virtue of them being religions.

However, the problem doesn't lie with religion but with people. If only more people could take a step back and think logically - what God would condone violence or hate in any form? None. If only people were that logical.

If only, but religion is by nature irrational. At root it is based on a premise which is anti-logic: faith. And there are no limits on that.

So, what god? Any god who wanted his followers to dominate the Earth.

 

[intothevoid]

True, and historically Christianity certainly doesn't have a stellar record in this regard. But Christian societies have moved on. Islamic societies are still rooted in the middle ages, and they are not going to extricate themselves from this until they stop blaming the West for all their failings and embrace secularism.

I also observe in Australia the failure of Muslims to properly integrate into mainstream society. The vast majority will not intermarry, as the families demand conversion to Islam of would-be suitors. There is a vocal minority who are demanding the recognition of specific Islamic 'laws' to be accommodated in the mainstream law system. It goes on. The problem is that many Muslims, like many Jews, see themselves as Muslims first and Australian citizens second.

It's often hard for people to separate the principles from the practice

That's the problem with multiculturalism. I think the US is a good example of a society where most Muslims integrate very well into society. They may or may not still consider themselves Muslims before Americans, but that doesn't seem to present as much of a problem there as it does in places like the UK, parts of Europe and Australia.

 

[devilof76]

Also, new Pew Research Center study released last month.

https://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-exec.aspx

 

[intothevoid]

I have never judged a religion basedon how its adherents behave. Holy books can be interpreted too many different ways (and usually are, particularly within a religion itself). I judge religions based on reason, and they all fall short by virtue of them being religions.

If only, but religion is by nature irrational. At root it is based on a premise which is anti-logic: faith. And there are no limits on that.

So, what god? Any god who wanted his followers to dominate the Earth.

Well as far as atheism goes - at least I can say you are atheist then for the right reasons, IE judgement not based on how how adherents behave.

To you religion by nature is irrational - to me, the existence of the Universe and of human life by its nature is impossible without the hand of a God. I'm very interested by science mind you - reading books on Quantum and String Theory right now, so i'm not speaking from a place of 'ignorance' so to speak.

But I respect your view and your right to hold it and express it.