Which order should new fans experience Star Wars?

[D. Martin]

Star Wars (even the PT) was at least 75% made up on the fly. Unless you count Episode 1,2 and the Clone Wars... then it was about 99% made up and contrived.

Go read the "Journal Of The Whills" at the beginning of the 1976 Star Wars novel Carl... It pretty much sums up TPM.

 

[pixletwin]

I always felt that Sidious was Luke's Grandpappy.

 

[IrishJedi]

Go read the "Journal Of The Whills" at the beginning of the 1976 Star Wars novel Carl... It pretty much sums up TPM.

Yeah, it sums up about 5 minutes of TPM. Well... the only element of TPM that even really matters (Palpatine becoming Chancellor). That was always one of my main issues with that film... the stuff pertinent to the rest of the saga really could have been told in an Opening Crawl. Everything else (silly CGI creatures, pod races, treaties, blah blah) was absolutely made up on the fly.

 

[pixletwin]

I enjoy the PT.

I enjoy the OT.

The story telling in the OT is crafted better than it is in the PT.

I still enjoy the PT.

Oh, and Maul shouldn't have died until the end of Ep II.

The Clone Wars should have begun at the end of Ep I.

And All the romance stuff should have been a back story in Ep I so Ep II could have focused on the clone wars and bad ass fighting, with Anakin's fall at the end - leaving Ep III for some bad ass Vader-i-fication of the Jedi Order.

 

[D. Martin]

Now, he retroactively made it that way, yes. Sometime in the early 90's he decided he would make Episodes 1-3 and then reconstruct the entire saga to revolve around the rise and fall and redemption of Anakin. But that was not always the case, especially when they were making the original films.

Actually, he discussed this in an interview in 1983 (The Time interview maybe?) that he would go back to the first three when the film making technology reached his vision. He said it would be about Obi-Wan and Anakin. The back story scripted in the OT even centers on that.

I'll try to dig the article up.

 

[IrishJedi]

Actually, he discussed this in an interview in 1983 (The Time interview maybe?) that he would go back to the first three when the film making technology reached his vision. He said it would be about Obi-Wan and Anakin. The back story scripted in the OT even centers on that.

I'll try to dig the article up.

Yeah, it was TIME magazine. I have it somewhere. Basically just says that the first 3 would be about a young Obi-Wan and Anakin and their adventures.

 

[a-dev]

Actually, I think the Star Wars Generation built the OT up far too much..

Possibly.

so-called Star Wars fans.

Now I don't like that insinuation. I'm a fan of less Star Wars than you but I'm still a fan.

Well I'm off to have dinner but I'll talk about your other post later, thanks for going to that trouble.

 

[D. Martin]

Yeah, it was TIME magazine. I have it somewhere. Basically just says that the first 3 would be about a young Obi-Wan and Anakin and their adventures.

Which they were.

 

[IrishJedi]

Yeah. I don't think that's in dispute at all (though the Clone Wars really delivers a lot more of that, of course).

 

[D. Martin]

Now I don't like that insinuation. I'm a fan of less Star Wars than you but I'm still a fan.

When I talk about 'so-Called Star Wars fans" I'm referring to the self-loathing complainers that hate everything (but still buy it all). There are a lot of people who mourn Star Wars when they should be celebrating it.

 

[The Josh]

The funniest thing about OT purists is how they put the first three films released on this untouchable pedestal, as if somehow they are less corny than the prequels. The unbiased viewer will acknowledge that all six films are equally silly and equally awesome.

Thats something I've said for a long time now. All six films suffer from many of the same things that OT purists won't or don't acknowledge. Maybe I'm on the age range that falls inbetween the two and that I didn't see them on the big screen starting until I was 16.

 

[IrishJedi]

When I talk about 'so-Called Star Wars fans" I'm referring to the self-loathing complainers that hate everything (but still buy it all). There are a lot of people who mourn Star Wars when they should be celebrating it.

Yeah. I think Dave is referring to the "Lucas raped my childhood I'll now hate Star Wars forever" crowd.

 

[Darksider]

OK, with Midi-Chlorians brought into the debate I feel I need to explain the importance of Qui-Gon.

To save time and to make it easy to discuss, I'll go in point form:

-We get introduced to Qui-Gon in TPM and quickly learn that he doesn't follow along with the mindset of the Jedi Order, who after a thousand generations have become complacent enough to dissect their faith.

-This complacency lead them to discover Midi-Chlorians, which to the Jedi scientists explain how they got strength; how they can communicate with the force. In this discovery, faith was no longer the guiding, erm, force of a Jedi's life.

-The Jedi Order follow the what they call the Unifying Force, which is an overall view that seems to ignore the subtle hints that the Force gives out. Qui-Gon tells Obi-Wan to follow the Living Force, which is the pulse that binds all the elements together. Essentially, He's trying to teach Obi-Wan the same thing that Yoda was teaching Luke: Faith.

-The Jedi Order would never have acknowledged Anakin if not for Qui-Gon's insistence, and if Anakin never became a Jedi, he never would have given balance to the Force. Arguably, If Qui-Gon lived and defied the Council's orders, Anakin would have been raised learning the force the same way Luke ended up learning it, and he wouldn't have become jaded by the obvious complacency of the Jedi Order, and no doubt, he would have been protected from Sidious (at least until Sidious found a way to kill Qui-Gon) ((since its pretty clear by Sidious' story about Darth Plaegous that Anakin's inception was intentional and his discovery by the Jedi either followed his plans perfectly or severely altered his plans))

-Qui-gon's death is a direct result of the Order's complacency too. The council refused to believe his claims of the Sith Lord. If they followed the Living Force as Qui-Gon did they would have taken this threat seriously and sent a pile of Jedi.

-Let's assume that it is Qui-Gon's death that turns Count Dooku, his former master, away from the Jedi. Lets assume further, that Dooku actually intended to join the Sith to destroy them only to be corrupted as quickly as Anakin was.

-(not to take away from the above point Let's assume further, since the OT have some pretty serious power given to names and their importance -Anankin died, killed by Darth Vader, as an example- that Count Dooku was once a Jedi known as Sifo Dias, who was killed about ten years before AOTC shortly after the death of Qui-Gon. Since we know that Sifo Dias commissioned the the clone army and we know that Tyrannus hired Jango Fett, is it too far fetched to assume that both men are actually count Dooku? Think about this one for a while, and if you discard EU like Lucasfilm does, it holds more water than my Aunt Ginny's ankles.

-After Order 66, and maybe before then, Yoda is communicating with Qui-Gon, and pledges himself to the slain Jedi's training, in doing so, turning Yoda into the Jedi Master that trained Luke with a focus on the Living Force and not the Unifying Force. Faith. Not Midi-Chlorians. Even though for 800 years, Yoda trained Jedi the exact opposite.

-Qui-Gon then went on to train Obi-Wan the same thing.

-Bottom line, with out Qui-Gon's influence, the entire story would have unraveled differently. There is no telling what Sidious' plans for Anakin were before he was discouvered by Qui-Gon, but the dialogue in ROTS clearly indicates that Sidious had a hand in Anakin's creation.

Very well done sir! I like it.

 

[D. Martin]

Yeah. I think Dave is referring to the "Lucas raped my childhood I'll now hate Star Wars forever" crowd.

Pretty close. Closer still would be the "Lucas raped my childhood I'll now hate Star Wars forever *whisper* but I still buy everything that comes out because that ____ing Lucas is holding a gun to my head" crowd

 

[cerealkeller]

I'm 34 and grew up on Star Wars. To me, they were magical films that went beyond the word "film". They were this grand story that I based a lot of my morals around. My motto in life: Don't be an _______! That said, I was disappointed in how the Prequel Trilogy films were told, not the story they were telling (if that makes sense). I LOVE the story of Star Wars and the Prequels are no exception. How Anakin fell to the Darkside, how the Republic became the Empire, how Anakin and Obi-Wan became friends then enemies, all well thought out and make perfect sense to me. My only beef with the Prequels is that the Original Trilogy are all well told films with relatable characters, fun dialogue, and a real sense of fun and adventure. The Prequels lose this, for me (we should all say this as these are our personal opinions and not fact!)

However, I still LOVE the story of Anakin Skywalker and feel it only helps with my understanding of the character of Darth Vader. But when I show my kid (still possible, dating someone much younger than I am ), I will show them 4,5(the essentials that establish the universe and make you care for the characters), then once Vader reveals who he is (or is he? I still remember fighting with my brothers about this before Jedi came out) show them the Prequels in order. I still feel this will add some suspense to these films on whether Anakin will turn to the Darkside and how that story all plays out. Then, finish with Jedi as the Prequels add so much to that film! The Prequels add so much tension to Jedi and really raise the stakes for Luke's decisions. I really LOVE the moments with Luke, Vader and the Emperor more so with knowledge of what came before.

That is my rant/opinion of how I will show them. And I for one will always acknowledge the Prequels for what they were to me: The background story to 3 of the most amazing films ever made. They don't take anything away from my enjoyment of Star Wars and yes, I now love characters like Vader and Obi-Wan more than I did prior to them.

 

[Khev]

Here's a test: have the character of Ashoka feel like anything but a completely contrived marketing tool designed to bring in young female fans after ROTS. Try and make it seem like she's supposed to be there was was to be all along. If anyone can do it, you probably can.

I don't have nearly so cynical a mindset on Ashoka's creation. I just assumed that Lucas realized that the PT was missing a critical dynamic that was so strong in the OT; the two guys and a girl trash talking banter. You can't achieve that with Padme because she wasn't created with the temperment nor skill set to actually follow the Jedi into battle. It worked for Leia because it was just her and a couple of blaster wielding dudes.

Hence the opening for an impetuous lightsaber twirling female that could be friends with Obi-Wan and talk back to Anakin. I think she's a great character that strengthens the appeal of the new cartoon.

 

[obi_dave_kenobi]

When my daughter is old enough, I am going to show her all 6 in order, from 1 to 6 hope she enjoys them as much as I do. I love them, I choose not to be over critical and just enjoy them for my love of star wars.

 

[nothingface35]

So, you'd rather spoil the Vader reveal than know that Qui-Gon, Darth Maul, and all the Jedi are killed??

Honestly, at this point in Americana, hell, in movie history "No, I am your father" is one of the most best lines in movie history. Ruining that to keep the suspense of lightsaber duels?? Sorry, but that's just

Further, if your first introduction to a lightsaber is Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan just whipping them out and standing there waiting for the Battle Droids to start shooting. . . that seems kind of anti-climactic. With the OT first, the lightsaber is introduced as a 'magical weapon' Obi-Wan explains it, and gives the viewer the information he needs to process the story.

Watching the OT first, gives you the rules of the universe and establishes the stakes. OT is "OMG, GALACTIC WAR, Rebels vs. Empire, struggle, fight, fight" PT gives you "OMG, it's a political dispute, the planets are arguing over taxes and trade routes" I mean, seriously, which one would you rather watch?? Are we watching a space epic or CNN??

I think part of the strength of the prequels is knowing the eventual outcome, and watching how the players are moved towards that end. Knowing the Jedi are purged at the end of ROTS makes their actions more intriguing. Them fighting in the Geonosis arena, is more interesting from the perspective of "You know you're all going to die in 5 years anyway, right??"

As the prequels stand on their own, Anakin's actions are hasty, and really don't make a lot of sense, but if you go in with the knowledge that's he IS going to turn out bad either way, it allows you to take his actions with a grain of salt, and at least lets you just sit back and enjoy the ride. . . though enjoy is a relative term.



Considering the score of TPM spoiled Qui-Gon's death, I don't think it was deemed that important to the Star Wars mythos. . . I swear, when I picked up that CD at Target and read the tracklisting and it said "Qui-Gon's Noble End" I threw that CD down and was like "WTF?!?! Seriously?!?!" Why would you put that on there??

No need to be disrespectful man with the face. I never said to watch the PT's first, I was just bringing up some facts for why ALL prequels suck in theory because everything's given away. There was no need to be a jerk.

 

[Khev]

I don't even agree that all in the PT is "given away" by the OT. Even as kids did anyone here actually wonder if the Emperor was going to succeed while Luke and the heroes die in vain? Of course not. You know as soon as the X-Wings take off that Luke is going to blow up the Death Star and that eventually all the bad guys will meet a nasty fate for their actions.

So the existence of the OT wasn't this giant news flash that all the bad guys were going to die and possibly some good ones too. Even now we don't know if Rex and Ahsoka will perish or leave the conflict in some otherwise unforeseen fashion.

I thought Gunray was going to die in TPM, then again in AOTC, and was shocked that Dooku bought it in the first 20 minutes of ROTS. So the OT doesn't really spoil the PT per se, but the whopper of a revelation in TESB is absolutely eliminated if you watch the PT first.

 

[nothingface35]

Anyone else find it ironic that all the old-timers who worship the OT are the most mean spirited and childish in regards to this topic? I'd expect some of this banter from a 13 year old, not from people over the age of 35! Come on guys, let's have a mature and civil discussion. If any age owns the saga it's mine (34) since I was born in 1977 when ANH was released! 1977 has to represent!!