Which order should new fans experience Star Wars?

[thenammagazine]

Really?? To me, that's like saying Sam Worthington is The Terminator. If you were born in 1995, you wouldn't know any better.

Had the company followed through with the planned trilogy instead of going bankrupt, that statement wouldn't be far from the truth, with him and Bale defining it for the younger generation.

 

[Darksider]

Didn't Yoda say at the end of episode III that it was Qui-Gon that returned to him and taught him and ultimately Obi-Wan how to become a force ghost. Id say that makes him pretty important to the story as a whole. If Obi-Wan never returned to Luke on Hoth he would have never found Yoda.

 

[a-dev]

Its silly but sometimes I forget theres a whole bunch of people who don't/won't have any clue who Arnold Schwarzennegger is.

 

[a-dev]

Didn't Yoda say at the end of episode III that it was Qui-Gon that returned to him and taught him and ultimately Obi-Wan how to become a force ghost. Id say that makes him pretty important to the story as a whole. If Obi-Wan never returned to Luke on Hoth he would have never found Yoda.

Until the PT we simply assumed that all jedi became ghosts - and that was fine. So, no, Qui-gon was never necessary for this. Like the midi-chlorian thing this was something that didn't need to be explained.

 

[Darksider]

Your right, it was not necessary, but they did it anyway and now its gospel.

 

[thenammagazine]

Until the PT we simply assumed that all jedi became ghosts - and that was fine. So, no, Qui-gon was never necessary for this. Like the midi-chlorian thing this was something that didn't need to be explained.

I agree. I think some elements were better left to "fantasy." But overall, it's nice knowing the backstory to the "rise and fall" of Anakin Skywalker and through default, gave us the backstory to Obi Wan as well. Like it or not the PT added that much more depth to the OT.

 

[a-dev]

I agree. I think some elements were better left to "fantasy." But overall, it's nice knowing the backstory to the "rise and fall" of Anakin Skywalker and through default, gave us the backstory to Obi Wan as well. Like it or not the PT added that much more depth to the OT.

Not as much as they could have though. For me anyway. I guess Lucas just had a lower opinion of his creation than I and a lot of others did. I think it could have been a lot more than just a special effects extravaganza for kids

 

[thenammagazine]

Not as much as they could have though. For me anyway. I guess Lucas just had a lower opinion of his creation than I and a lot of others did. I think it could have been a lot more than just a special effects extravaganza for kids

I don't read into it that deeply. It was fun and told the story well enough. 5 of the 6 have their highs and lows (I think ESB is perfect), so by comparison the "hokey factor" is pretty even across the board. As I've said countless times, if Lucas'd had the money in '77 that he has now, the OT wouldn't have been any different.

 

[Darth Cruel]

Like them or hate them...1, 2, appropriate Clone wars cartoon, 3, appropriate Clone Wars cartoons, 4, 5, and then 6.

 

[a-dev]

I can enjoy them as space fantasy adventures. They just aint my Star Wars. Not saying my childhood was raped, they don't ruin the OT for me, I can compartmentalise and I just pretend one has nothing whatsoever to do with the other. Every now and then though I chime in on the debates when theres nothing else to talk about.

 

[IrishJedi]

From day one, the story of Star Wars was always about Anakin Skywalker.

Sorry, I ain't buying that revisionist poop from Lucas. You can if you want. But the "Star Wars was always about Anakin" stuff is a flat-out falsehood.

I swear, if Lucas announced Episodes 7-9 tomorrow and claimed it was all part of the plan (no matter what crazy stuff he put in the film), some of you would believe it.

Star Wars (even the PT) was at least 75% made up on the fly. Unless you count Episode 1,2 and the Clone Wars... then it was about 99% made up and contrived.

 

[thenammagazine]

Sorry, I ain't buying that revisionist poop from Lucas. You can if you want. But the "Star Wars was always about Anakin" stuff is a flat-out falsehood.

I swear, if Lucas announced Episodes 7-9 tomorrow and claimed it was all part of the plan (no matter what crazy stuff he put in the film), some of you would believe it.

Star Wars (even the PT) was at least 75% made up on the fly. Unless you count Episode 1,2 and the Clone Wars... then it was about 99% made up and contrived.

You watch any of the documentaries on the discs? He busted out his old handwritten notes from Star Wars, waaaaaaaaaaay back in the day and actually talks quite a bit about it. Buy it or not, it's the truth.

 

[IrishJedi]

I've seen all the documentaries, I have the Star Wars Annotated Screenplays book, and I've even seen the Holy Grail Lucas SW Notes Bible. He had a lot of different names and story ideas in the early days, before settling on Luke & company for the OT.

That all of this (everything in all 6 films) was created ahead of time and that it was always designed to be Anakin's story is a complete white-wash. It's just not true.

Now, he retroactively made it that way, yes. Sometime in the early 90's he decided he would make Episodes 1-3 and then reconstruct the entire saga to revolve around the rise and fall and redemption of Anakin. But that was not always the case, especially when they were making the original films.

Besides, you can't trust what Lucas says on this. Not when he claims he never said there was more than 6 episodes (in fact he has once said both "9" and "12" films would be made) and that "it's always been about a father and twins". That last one is especially funny since the notion of Luke & Leia being twins wasn't even decided until later drafts of the ROTJ script. (The original "there is another" Yoda spoke of was actually Anakin/Vader... him turning was the only other hope if Luke failed). I've seen that in pre-ROTJ notes with my own eyes.

 

[thenammagazine]

Never said anything about him planning only 3 or only 6 films, nor that it was all created at once. I also remember the hype over a follow-up trilogy. Just saying, from day one, in those notes, the story's about Anakin.

 

[IrishJedi]

Never said anything about him planning only 3 or only 6 films, nor that it was all created at once. I also remember the hype over a follow-up trilogy.

I made those points as evidence that Lucas talks out of his ass when it comes to this stuff and you can't accept his word as the truth, especially since he's been known to flat-out lie about it. He's a master marketer & revisionist.

Just saying, from day one, in those notes, the story's about Anakin.

There were several story ideas and different characters. It was also originally about Usby CJ Thape and then an entire treatment with Deak Starkiller as the main character. Where are they?

From 1974-1990'ish it became centered around Luke. Anakin was mostly an afterthought.

Like it or not, Lucas is still making this stuff up as he goes.

 

[msjedi36]

My thoughts exactly. I prefer the Anakin Skywalker story to the Luke Skywalker story. I-VI is a phenomenal story. To that point, The Clone Wars is pretty cool too.

When we were kids, we only knew Anakin as a villain. Kids are growing up watching him as the hero we were always told he was, and that adds so much weight to what happens to him, not just how he gets played by Sidious, but ultimately how he is redeemed in ROTJ. THe parallels between what happens to Mace Windu and Luke Skywalker is spellbinding.

I truly feel bad for Star Wars fans that can't watch the prequels with the same suspension of disbelief they had as children with IV-VI. The new movies are incredible. Lucas didn't change his story. When the prequels came out, I watched them through the same eyes I watched the OT, and they are all a part of the big picture.

To the haters: Star Wars hasn't changed, you have.

Amen brother...If you watch Episode 1,2, first than the clone wars and see the relationship between the clones and jedi's you get the chills when the clones turn on the Jedi's during order "66" scene. My son and wife just finished watching the entire saga 1-6 and they said the order 66 scene was very dramatic. My wife (Not a fan I forced her to watch them all) cried after she saw what happen to Anakin and than cried agian at the end of ROTJ. For me RotJ especially is so much better after watching the PT.

 

[D. Martin]

Until the PT we simply assumed that all jedi became ghosts - and that was fine. So, no, Qui-gon was never necessary for this. Like the midi-chlorian thing this was something that didn't need to be explained.

OK, with Midi-Chlorians brought into the debate I feel I need to explain the importance of Qui-Gon.

To save time and to make it easy to discuss, I'll go in point form:

-We get introduced to Qui-Gon in TPM and quickly learn that he doesn't follow along with the mindset of the Jedi Order, who after a thousand generations have become complacent enough to dissect their faith.

-This complacency lead them to discover Midi-Chlorians, which to the Jedi scientists explain how they got strength; how they can communicate with the force. In this discovery, faith was no longer the guiding, erm, force of a Jedi's life.

-The Jedi Order follow the what they call the Unifying Force, which is an overall view that seems to ignore the subtle hints that the Force gives out. Qui-Gon tells Obi-Wan to follow the Living Force, which is the pulse that binds all the elements together. Essentially, He's trying to teach Obi-Wan the same thing that Yoda was teaching Luke: Faith.

-The Jedi Order would never have acknowledged Anakin if not for Qui-Gon's insistence, and if Anakin never became a Jedi, he never would have given balance to the Force. Arguably, If Qui-Gon lived and defied the Council's orders, Anakin would have been raised learning the force the same way Luke ended up learning it, and he wouldn't have become jaded by the obvious complacency of the Jedi Order, and no doubt, he would have been protected from Sidious (at least until Sidious found a way to kill Qui-Gon) ((since its pretty clear by Sidious' story about Darth Plaegous that Anakin's inception was intentional and his discovery by the Jedi either followed his plans perfectly or severely altered his plans))

-Qui-gon's death is a direct result of the Order's complacency too. The council refused to believe his claims of the Sith Lord. If they followed the Living Force as Qui-Gon did they would have taken this threat seriously and sent a pile of Jedi.

-Let's assume that it is Qui-Gon's death that turns Count Dooku, his former master, away from the Jedi. Lets assume further, that Dooku actually intended to join the Sith to destroy them only to be corrupted as quickly as Anakin was.

-(not to take away from the above point Let's assume further, since the OT have some pretty serious power given to names and their importance -Anankin died, killed by Darth Vader, as an example- that Count Dooku was once a Jedi known as Sifo Dias, who was killed about ten years before AOTC shortly after the death of Qui-Gon. Since we know that Sifo Dias commissioned the the clone army and we know that Tyrannus hired Jango Fett, is it too far fetched to assume that both men are actually count Dooku? Think about this one for a while, and if you discard EU like Lucasfilm does, it holds more water than my Aunt Ginny's ankles.

-After Order 66, and maybe before then, Yoda is communicating with Qui-Gon, and pledges himself to the slain Jedi's training, in doing so, turning Yoda into the Jedi Master that trained Luke with a focus on the Living Force and not the Unifying Force. Faith. Not Midi-Chlorians. Even though for 800 years, Yoda trained Jedi the exact opposite.

-Qui-Gon then went on to train Obi-Wan the same thing.

-Bottom line, with out Qui-Gon's influence, the entire story would have unraveled differently. There is no telling what Sidious' plans for Anakin were before he was discouvered by Qui-Gon, but the dialogue in ROTS clearly indicates that Sidious had a hand in Anakin's creation.

 

[D. Martin]

I guess Lucas just had a lower opinion of his creation than I and a lot of others did.

Actually, I think the Star Wars Generation built the OT up far too much. Putting those three films on a pedestal has blurred objectivity for far too many so-called Star Wars fans.

 

[IrishJedi]

OK, with Midi-Chlorians brought into the debate I feel I need to explain the importance of Qui-Gon.

To save time and to make it easy to discuss, I'll go in point form:

-We get introduced to Qui-Gon in TPM and quickly learn that he doesn't follow along with the mindset of the Jedi Order, who after a thousand generations have become complacent enough to dissect their faith.

-This complacency lead them to discover Midi-Chlorians, which to the Jedi scientists explain how they got strength; how they can communicate with the force. In this discovery, faith was no longer the guiding, erm, force of a Jedi's life.

-The Jedi Order follow the what they call the Unifying Force, which is an overall view that seems to ignore the subtle hints that the Force gives out. Qui-Gon tells Obi-Wan to follow the Living Force, which is the pulse that binds all the elements together. Essentially, He's trying to teach Obi-Wan the same thing that Yoda was teaching Luke: Faith.

-The Jedi Order would never have acknowledged Anakin if not for Qui-Gon's insistence, and if Anakin never became a Jedi, he never would have given balance to the Force. Arguably, If Qui-Gon lived and defied the Council's orders, Anakin would have been raised learning the force the same way Luke ended up learning it, and he wouldn't have become jaded by the obvious complacency of the Jedi Order, and no doubt, he would have been protected from Sidious (at least until Sidious found a way to kill Qui-Gon) ((since its pretty clear by Sidious' story about Darth Plaegous that Anakin's inception was intentional and his discovery by the Jedi either followed his plans perfectly or severely altered his plans))

-Qui-gon's death is a direct result of the Order's complacency too. The council refused to believe his claims of the Sith Lord. If they followed the Living Force as Qui-Gon did they would have taken this threat seriously and sent a pile of Jedi.

-Let's assume that it is Qui-Gon's death that turns Count Dooku, his former master, away from the Jedi. Lets assume further, that Dooku actually intended to join the Sith to destroy them only to be corrupted as quickly as Anakin was.

-(not to take away from the above point Let's assume further, since the OT have some pretty serious power given to names and their importance -Anankin died, killed by Darth Vader, as an example- that Count Dooku was once a Jedi known as Sifo Dias, who was killed about ten years before AOTC shortly after the death of Qui-Gon. Since we know that Sifo Dias commissioned the the clone army and we know that Tyrannus hired Jango Fett, is it too far fetched to assume that both men are actually count Dooku? Think about this one for a while, and if you discard EU like Lucasfilm does, it holds more water than my Aunt Ginny's ankles.

-After Order 66, and maybe before then, Yoda is communicating with Qui-Gon, and pledges himself to the slain Jedi's training, in doing so, turning Yoda into the Jedi Master that trained Luke with a focus on the Living Force and not the Unifying Force. Faith. Not Midi-Chlorians. Even though for 800 years, Yoda trained Jedi the exact opposite.

-Qui-Gon then went on to train Obi-Wan the same thing.

-Bottom line, with out Qui-Gon's influence, the entire story would have unraveled differently. There is no telling what Sidious' plans for Anakin were before he was discouvered by Qui-Gon, but the dialogue in ROTS clearly indicates that Sidious had a hand in Anakin's creation.

I actually love that analysis (though I question whether Lucas actually thought that deeply about it and wasn't just reiterating simple beats and themes among films).

But that is part of the problem. You have to analyze and really think about it to come to these conclusions, and it's still mostly speculative because they're never really surfaced in the text of the films' narrative themselves.

Lucasfilm should hire you to retroactively pull it all together... because they haven't done nearly as good a job.

Here's a test: have the character of Ashoka feel like anything but a completely contrived marketing tool designed to bring in young female fans after ROTS. Try and make it seem like she's supposed to be there was was to be all along. If anyone can do it, you probably can.

 

[IrishJedi]

Actually, I think the Star Wars Generation built the OT up far too much. Putting those three films on a pedestal has blurred objectivity for far too many so-called Star Wars fans.

I for one don't think I'd have a single SW film in my Top 25 of all time. No pedestal here.