Wolverine Origins (Spoilers/Discussion)

[DarkArtist81]

Well, it IS barbelith... he thinks anything short of War and Peace is campy.

*post written entirely tongue in cheek... *

 

[Darkseed]

X-3 or FF2 weren't the worst comic movies made (IMO). I will go with the intent to have a good time little else and I shouldn't be disappointed.

May is turning into quite a movie month with: XMO: Wolverine week 1, Star Trek week 2 and Terminator Salvation week 3

 

[barbelith]

Even at it's most ridiculous everyone is dead serious about it.

That's where most camp comes from.

 

[jye4ever]

If anyone was looking for Wolverine to kill innocent people, it wasn't going to happen, i'm guessing that Marvel simply wouldn't allow their good guy character to do that.

Wolverine is a dark loner and they could've portrayed that better but like it or not he is still a good guy, just a dark loner kind of good guy so I totally comprehend why he walked away from killing all those innocent people. On the other hand Sabretooth is a bad guy in the Marvel universe hence him not caring about killing innocent people.

There's got to be something which seperates him from Sabretooth and other bad people like Stryker, no?

Wolverine can be just as viscious as Sabretooth and Stryker but only when pushed and pushed and pushed until he has no choice but to kick ass BUT kick bad people ass and for me once he got his Ada claws, kick villian ass he did!

Yes in X2 Stryker said that he was an "Animal" and for me he was but against the bad guys.

I never expected Wolverine to kill innocents even before this or any of the other X-men movies ever existed.

Now, is it a good movie?

Good enough to watch once? Hell yes!
Good enough to own on DVD? Yes!
Good enough to claim that it's better than Ghost Rider, Blade 3, Catwoman and Elektra? Hell yes!
Good enough to claim that it's better than Iron Man and TDK? Hell no!

Final Score = Good Enough

 

[YoNoSe]

That's where most camp comes from.

I guess that depends on what you think of as camp. I think there are silly aspects of the movie but none of it is played with a wink, or nearly over the top enough to qualify as camp for me. I tend to agree with Guillermo Deltoro's definition of camp - "Having a boner, but laughing about it." I think the cast and crew of Wolverine are genuine about their boner. Serious, but not Shatner.

 

[CelticPredator]

Wolverine should be a monster at first. Then become more of a hero. Like what happend in the X-Men movies.

I dont have any Wolvie knowlage, i'm just going by what happend in the movies...and the movies indicate he was a monster.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Good explanation... hilarious.

And I didn't expect Wolvie to be killing innocents, but anyone who knows anything of Wolverine's history... they know he has done some truly horrific things. Which is why he is so conflicted about his nature. What several different groups have made him do is pretty scary, and for that he has a hard time forgiving himself... no matter what heroics he achieves.

I think that is the essence of Wolverine, especially early Wolverine. I was really hoping to see that in this film. I'll spare judgment until I actually see it, but the previews and the word of mouth have me genuinely concerned that I will be disappointed at least partly.

 

[CelticPredator]

He doesnt do jack ^^^^.

They have ONE mission together, they all show up, Blob kills a guy, Victor kills someone (I think...) Wade kills like 30 dudes, Agent Zero kills a few, but Wolvie stands there and does nothing. And then they are about to kill some villagers, and he's like "^^^^ this, i'm out."

Thats it. There's no set up that says he's done anything wrong in his life. Sure...he's killed some Red Coats, German's, Viet Cong, but thats it.

He's a hero...and not an animal.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Yeah, see... that sucks. Wolverine in the comics has done some BRUTAL stuff in his life. He killed an entire town of prospectors when his Indian lover was killed (by Sabretooth). He helped brainwash an american GI into slaying a bunch of innocent Vietcong, even killed the guys nanny in cold blood and talked his father into blowing his brains out (as the GI was a kid). And that is just stuff from one comic!

Wolverine in his early years, when he was under the control of various people....was a killing machine. And later he was brainwashed by Hydra, killed hundreds (including a fellow Xman) before being stopped. It really is a travesty that movie audiences will never get a glimpse of that Wolverine.

I know Fox wants for people to side with him... but that's why you have him do this stuff early on, only to break free of the mind control and realize what he is doing...agonize over it, and rebel against the controllers in an effort to exorcise his demons. People will still side with him, maybe even more now that they now why he is so haunted.

 

[Memnoch]

Honestly, with most of these movies I don't have high hopes for the story but pray we get cool toys outta them. With this one we are getting HT figures so I'd say it's a win.

 

[CelticPredator]

Yeah....I can give the movie that. I can finally get a Jackmen Wolvie.

 

[barbelith]

I guess that depends on what you think of as camp. I think there are silly aspects of the movie but none of it is played with a wink, or nearly over the top enough to qualify as camp for me.

Traditionally "camp" means something intended seriously but which cannot be taken seriously. It seems to have mutated (especially in America) into deliberate kitsch. Shatner in Star Trek is camp; Shatner in a Priceline commercial is kitsch.

 

[IrishJedi]

Yeah, see... that sucks. Wolverine in the comics has done some BRUTAL stuff in his life. He killed an entire town of prospectors when his Indian lover was killed (by Sabretooth). He helped brainwash an american GI into slaying a bunch of innocent Vietcong, even killed the guys nanny in cold blood and talked his father into blowing his brains out (as the GI was a kid). And that is just stuff from one comic!

Wolverine in his early years, when he was under the control of various people....was a killing machine. And later he was brainwashed by Hydra, killed hundreds (including a fellow Xman) before being stopped. It really is a travesty that movie audiences will never get a glimpse of that Wolverine.

I know Fox wants for people to side with him... but that's why you have him do this stuff early on, only to break free of the mind control and realize what he is doing...agonize over it, and rebel against the controllers in an effort to exorcise his demons. People will still side with him, maybe even more now that they now why he is so haunted.

Yep, but that's not Logan in this movie. He's a total boy scout to the point where he's almost as goodie two-shoes as Superman.

And that is just one of MANY problems with this POS movie.

 

[YoNoSe]

Traditionally "camp" means something intended seriously but which cannot be taken seriously. It seems to have mutated (especially in America) into deliberate kitsch. Shatner in Star Trek is camp; Shatner in a Priceline commercial is kitsch.

I don't agree with that. Camp is purposely exaggerated. It's not a matter of perception - it's actually how it's played. From Dictionary.com - "something that provides sophisticated, knowing amusement, as by virtue of its being artlessly mannered or stylized, self-consciously artificial and extravagant, or teasingly ingenuous and sentimental." Or, Websters says " something so outrageously artificial, affected, inappropriate, or out-of-date as to be considered amusing."
I don't think Wolverine fits either definition. It's played straight and, while silly at times, not nearly ridiculous enough to fall into the latter.

 

[CelticPredator]

Yep. Sam Raimi's a master at camp.

 

[YoNoSe]

Unfortunately my analytical thinking has a very short life bar. It's only a matter of time before barbelith checkmates me on the camp thing.

 

[YoNoSe]

Yep. Sam Raimi's a master at camp.

OT, but I'm psyched for Drag Me To Hell as much as anything else this summer.

 

[barbelith]

I don't agree with that.

You don't have to. I think we're looking at the difference between a classical definition of camp and what I'll call modern or American camp, which is really just OTT kitsch. Wolverine is definitely camp in the classic tradition, like Showgirls.

Basically, if it's meant to be taken seriously and you're laughing, you're already in the camp ZIP code. Critics and art historians can get quite particular about this, and endlessly debate whether something is truly camp, but I think the word's been so mangled it's worth just accepting there's a classic and modern definition instead of contesting the point.

 

[barbelith]

And that is just one of MANY problems with this POS movie.

See how fun it is when we're on the same team?

 

[YoNoSe]

Basically, if it's meant to be taken seriously and you're laughing, you're already in the camp ZIP code.

Maybe, maybe not. Not everything that's badly made qualifies.

I think the word's been so mangled it's worth just accepting there's a classic and modern definition instead of contesting the point.

I accept that. I just think that your definition is more of an interpretation than what you're calling the American camp.

I can't believe I've been dragged into a barbelithathon.