Wonder Woman - June 2, 2017

[Wor-Gar]

Thanos ... will most likely be the best onscreen villain yet.

This kind of expectation, that Marvel is to blame for building, is impossible to maintain and deliver on. Everyone is already expecting the best villain they've ever seen... and there's no way he can be.

He'll be big, and loud, and CGI'd. That's all guaranteed. And that isn't the 'best' already.

 

[loki2371]

This kind of expectation, that Marvel is to blame for building, is impossible to maintain and deliver on. Everyone is already expecting the best villain they've ever seen... and there's no way he can be.

He'll be big, and loud, and CGI'd. That's all guaranteed. And that isn't the 'best' already.

I really meant the most memorable, not necessarily the best. In the MCU of course, not all comic book films. It'll be hard to top Ledger's Joker in TDK.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I think he'll be little more than a big, purple Ronin at best.

Marvel will assume the audience will 'give' him gravitas.



You may not agree, but only Red Skull was done right as a villain: he had a great car, cool escape vehicle, a special gun, a great base; he flew, he fought, he had a menacing super weapon and a sidekick -- he had everything a megalomaniacal villain should have.

No, he isn't my favorite villain -- because of the silly red skull -- but he was developed correctly, both in story and in visuals.

 

[chewblacca]

I'm waiting to see Thanos take on all of the Avengers and having their butts kicked royally! Anything less in this movie and it will be worse than AOU.

 

[Wor-Gar]

But what's he going to do: punch each one down, so they skid breaking asphalt and slide to a stop, then look up sadly to the camera and drop.

That's it? He does that, what -- 24 times? (that's how many heroes we'll have by then to beat down)


Look how poorly Ultron was done "beating" the Avengers. And there's more of them now. It just becomes like swatting endless flies. Since they can't die, who cares if they get beat down.

Now if he kills Scarlet Witch and Panther and Hawkeye and some of the other worthless ones, that would be good. Slim the herd.

 

[Chakor]

I learned to set my expectations for every MCU villain low after Iron Man 3, so I'm expecting a 5/10 from Thanos at best.

 

[Wor-Gar]

That's the way to do it.

MCU has never had a truly GREAT villain yet -- not like a Darth Vader, or Ledger Joker, or Nicholson Joker, or Hans Gruber, or Agent Smith, or Goldfinger, or even Davy Jones.

Considering the profitability of their world, you'd think Marvel could come to the table with one great villain... but still nothing.

 

[chewblacca]

I hear you Wor. When Ultron had trouble fighting Cap on top of the truckin AOU I was like this villain is so lame! I have a feeling if Thanos kills anyone Marvel is going to pull a Narnia and use the life gen to bring them back.

 

[EVILFACE]

This kind of expectation, that Marvel is to blame for building, is impossible to maintain and deliver on. Everyone is already expecting the best villain they've ever seen... and there's no way he can be.

He'll be big, and loud, and CGI'd. That's all guaranteed. And that isn't the 'best' already.

The excuse will be Marvel intentionally made their villains weak so Thanos appears better. There best 'villain' Winter Soldier is a henchman and will more than likely take over for Captain America. Loki changed sides too much to be considered a full on villain and also carries the henchman tag. I guess other than that, Ultron is it.

 

[Khev]

Fisk and Kilgrave are still better than any of the villains that have appeared on the big screen. The thing with Nicholson and Ledger Joker, Vader, etc., is that they're such big deals that for many they are equal to or better than the heroes. People have entire shrines devoted to such characters. I've never seen anyone with an "MCU Ultron" focus or Malekith or what have you.

 

[Chakor]

I kind of went soft on Ultron when AoU first came out because I had long speculated that Strucker would be the true main villain; pulling Ultron's strings - boy was I wrong since Ultron is actually the one who kills Strucker.

However, having recently given AoU a re-watch, I feel that Ultron was underused. I enjoyed James Spader's voice acting and liked Ultron's physical character design, but I feel that AoU as a whole wasn't even half as strong as the first Avengers.

Loki is easily my favorite MCU villain, and favorite character of the entire MCU.

 

[Khev]

Loki was kind of a precursor to Kylo Ren. Whiny emo brat who hates his family.

 

[loki2371]

You may not agree, but only Red Skull was done right as a villain: he had a great car, cool escape vehicle, a special gun, a great base; he flew, he fought, he had a menacing super weapon and a sidekick -- he had everything a megalomaniacal villain should have.

No, he isn't my favorite villain -- because of the silly red skull -- but he was developed correctly, both in story and in visuals.

I do agree in that Red Skull was the best MCU villain to date, and Loki too (although not a true villain in the same vain).

 

[Chakor]

Loki was kind of a precursor to Kylo Ren. Whiny emo brat who hates his family.

Can't deny Hiddleston's acting was pretty great though. I wouldn't have enjoyed him anywhere near as much if another actor had played the part.

 

[loki2371]

I hear you Wor. When Ultron had trouble fighting Cap on top of the truckin AOU I was like this villain is so lame! I have a feeling if Thanos kills anyone Marvel is going to pull a Narnia and use the life gen to bring them back.

Actually the reality gem/stone. But that's exactly what happened in the comic. SO don't get too mad if that's the route they go, cause it's actually an accurate portrayal of the story.

 

[loki2371]

Fisk and Kilgrave are still better than any of the villains that have appeared on the big screen. The thing with Nicholson and Ledger Joker, Vader, etc., is that they're such big deals that for many they are equal to or better than the heroes. People have entire shrines devoted to such characters. I've never seen anyone with an "MCU Ultron" focus or Malekith or what have you.

Because they are villains of a TV show nature, it makes sense to feel that way. They've had more screen time on the Netflix shows than entire MCU movie. SO lot's of time to flesh out the character's personality traits and they're motivations. Much harder to do in movies when they are one and done character and have way less screen time. Kilgrave was the only good part of Jessica Jones, the rest sucked.

 

[Wor-Gar]

The thing with Nicholson and Ledger Joker, Vader, etc., is that they're such big deals that for many they are equal to or better than the heroes. People have entire shrines devoted to such characters. I've never seen anyone with an "MCU Ultron" focus or Malekith or what have you.

Exactly my point. For a world as big as Marvel, where the hell are the heavy-hitters?

Marvel has done such good work developing their cadre of heroes... yet they seem to spend zero time on building up their foes -- which as the old saying goes: a hero is only as good as his villain.

To say the Loki is the best villain is pretty sad. He's not even a villain. He's a classic "traitor/trickster" character.

Villains needs things too: grand plots, great vehicles, personal weapons, good henchmen where possible, and a striking presence.

Yes, we should love them every bit as much as the hero. And the casting for villains needs to be as spot-on as for the heroes. So far, most of the villain casting has been weak (Christopher Eccleston) to just plain wrong (Jeff Bridges).

 

[Khev]

Because they are villains of a TV show nature, it makes sense to feel that way. They've had more screen time on the Netflix shows than entire MCU movie. SO lot's of time to flesh out the character's personality traits and they're motivations. Much harder to do in movies when they are one and done character and have way less screen time.

No it isn't because they got more screentime on TV. Ledger was in TDK for what, 30-40 minutes tops? And he's still a legend almost a decade later. The MCU villains just haven't come close. They aren't all bad of course, I have enjoyed all of Cap's villains so far (Red Skull, Winter Soldier, and Zemo) but they aren't top tier like Vader, Joker, etc.

Exactly my point. For a world as big as Marvel, where the hell are the heavy-hitters?

Yep, the one undeniable shortcoming of the MCU.

 

[loki2371]

No it isn't because they got more screentime on TV. Ledger was in TDK for what, 30-40 minutes tops? And he's still a legend almost a decade later.

Yes, but I would argue he had more screen time than the others, and nearly every one who saw that movie already knows who the Joker is and what his motivations are. They didn't give him much of a backstory. They don't need to.. The Marvel villains on the other hand, casual fans have no idea who any of them are. Just like most casual fans watching the TV show wouldn't know who Kingpin, or the Purple Man are. The need is there to develop the characters more as it's a slow moving drama as opposed to a faster pace action movie. Cotton Mouth was also a good villain in Luke Cage. If Luke Cage was a movie, Cotton Mouth would've sucked too.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I'm not sure anyone has ever criticized for "too much development". So sure, bring it on.

Most MCU villains are just an after-thought; a necessary piece of the formula that is simply plugged into the structure: some ancient evil or some demented junior scientist who wants to be taken seriously. That's the extent of the Villain Lexicon.