X-Men: Days of Future Past

[DiFabio]

Two ingredients that make for a great superhero story:

1. Bad guys that are actually bad and kill people
2. Good guys that are actually good and don't kill people

DOFP failed at #1 and MOS failed at #2. TWS mastered both.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Cap and Natasha killed people, especially in that first mission.

And while the Winter Soldier killed, I'm not aure he qualifies as a "bad guy". I'd like to think these characters are a little more complex than "this guy is good, this guy is baaaaad." I liked the grey areas Cap II explored.

 

[Khev]

Oh yes, I meant "good guys that are actually good and don't kill innocents." My bad. And it is interesting that the MCU has been exploring hella grey areas what with Hawkeye and Bucky actually murdering good guys before becoming good again. They're more hardcore than Arnold in the R-rated T2!

 

[DiFabio]

Yup.

Also, Avengers. Most of Cap's scenes (actual and deleted) are of him running around and saving citizens.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

Okay good.



Was the action in TLC sanitized? I haven't watched it in a while but remember the tank battle to be pretty violent.



I just think they could have done something like Red Dawn (or hell the one ewok who dies in ROTJ.) Just show the Sentinels opening fire on police cars, then people running and screaming, and then as people clear out we see three or four bodies in the grass near the cars. That's it. Not a horrifying bloodbath or anything, just a little something to make the audience go "damn, this is harsh, people need to stop Magneto NOW."

Not so much sanitized as it was heavily stylized, especially compared to Raiders and TOD. Even though people were killed, it was all so...clean. It was particularly jarring because you expect a certain look and feel and tone from the two movies that came before. Watching LC for the first time was completely surprising in how different it felt from the other two, especially having waited 5 years between installments. Just imagine if in the sequel to the Terminator (a bloody, carnage-filled movie) the Terminator didn't kill anyone! Oh, wait...

And yes, I see your point about at least showing some casualties just to show how ruthless Magneto could be. But I still think it really wasn't all that necessary and could have been more distracting than anything else. If Mags would have shot people, then it would have escalated the battle and taken the movie in a different direction, and would have taken the focus away from the confrontation between him and the president.

 

[karamazov80]

Personally, I just don't see the need for that in all cases, though it works in some cases. With Magneto, it was very clearly established that he was a bad-ass who would kill or allow folks to die if it furthered his cause. He killed the Nazis and Shaw in First Class, he tried to kill Mystique, and he was going to kill more humans at the end, or at least the President and Trask. Him actually killing more people wouldn't have made his threat more grave to my eyes.

 

[DiFabio]

I agree.

In all the films, Magneto has been portrayed as a ruthless killer and has no qualms about killing in the name of his philosophy. I don't need to see him kill in every scene to get that. Especially when I have this,


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zbTyTyizz1s


Besides, didn't he kill in DOFP when he went back in to retrieve his helmet (the same way he utilized those metal balls above)?

 

[RIDDICK]

No, he just knocked those guards off with the balls.

Again, if it was "First Class" sequel and if characters were developed properly people wouldn't question the lack of killing.

 

[DiFabio]

Oh.

Ok, maybe he was being a puss.

 

[pturtle]

I'm not sure where you're getting "gory" as I haven't said that in one of my posts. I'm just talking about actual casualties (and they don't count if they get reversed) just like I don't count Bucky or Fury's "deaths" as being casualties either. I've also been clear to mention that I don't think DOFP sucks or anything due to no loss of human or mutant life. It's still a good movie. As I said it has great atmosphere and visuals and I agree that the final curtain call was heartwarming. It just lacked a certain intensity that even Pixar movies like The Incredibles possess.

Remember the first Red Dawn when the Russian troops fired at the school? You just see a bunch of kids screaming and running and then they show that one student slumped out of the window, dead. Not gory at all but incredibly powerful and intense. DOFP easily could have achieved that while still being PG-13.

Well, the whole series has really been filled with death and some of the most violent scenes in superhero films. Remember, this film was basically made to remedy X3 because of all RELEVANT character’s that were killed off, those lasting deaths did not enhanced X3 in anyway.

I don’t think this film intentionally held anything back as the “soft deaths" were still quite graphic, and the fact that these are relevant characters being brutally murdered actually intensifies these scenes, everyone eventually coming back shouldn’t discredit that. Characters like Iceman and Colossus have a fan base, they aren’t just random soldiers being shot, or thrown off planes, so the audience should actually be more emotionally invested in their “death” even though it didn’t stick. Imagine seeing Cap’s limbs cut off, of if he was torn in half in a live action film? Whether he came back or not I’m sure seeing something like that would have some affect on you, being a diehard Cap fan and all.

I get what you’re saying, but in my opinion the deaths of the future mutants do “count” because they did technically die until the timeline changed, I think it should be expected in time travel movies that almost nobody stays dead.

 

[Khev]

Does this have a blu-ray street date yet? I know a box set was posted a while back.

 

[jye4ever]

Koreans in Olympus has Fallen took out way more people than Magneto during their White House assault.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

Does this have a blu-ray street date yet? I know a box set was posted a while back.

I don't think anything definitive. Looking forward to owning this and Winter Soldier!

 

[GasparZizou]

Two ingredients that make for a great superhero story:

1. Bad guys that are actually bad and kill people
2. Good guys that are actually good and don't kill people

DOFP failed at #1 and MOS failed at #2. TWS mastered both.

Didn't Cap kill bad guys in TWS? If not, he did in Avengers and TFA.

Also, you can have a good guy who kills people.

 

[tylerdurden]

as far as i'm concerned (and i'm surprised there aren't more people who see this), magneto turned into a bloody idiot in the 3rd act. he had the perfect chance to foil trask's sentinel programme by making these human weapons look like they'd malfunctioned by secretly manipulating them to attack the humans. right in front of president nixon no less, who would've immediately taken trask to task (hey, it rhymes). instead, he chose to go with a big show-off-my-mutant-powers moment and demonstrate to the humans even more why mutants should be feared/hated.

i know magneto is a murderous extremist, but he is also supposed to be crafty and intelligent. he knows full well that the future fate of all mutant-kind rests on putting an end to the sentinel programme. he could've accomplished it so much more easily via deception or sabotage but because the filmmakers wanted a huge finale, they went with this instead. just felt like lazy writing and an out-of-character moment to me. other than that, i enjoyed the film.

 

[GasparZizou]

as far as i'm concerned (and i'm surprised there aren't more people who see this), magneto turned into a bloody idiot in the 3rd act. he had the perfect chance to foil trask's sentinel programme by making these human weapons look like they'd malfunctioned by secretly manipulating them to attack the humans. right in front of president nixon no less, who would've immediately taken trask to task (hey, it rhymes). instead, he chose to go with a big show-off-my-mutant-powers moment and demonstrate to the humans even more why mutants should be feared/hated.

Yup, I mentioned the same thing some pages ago, while playing devil's advocate.

It was perfectly in character, once Magneto had control over the sentinels (which he would not have unless he was aware of them before they were activated, ergo, previous time-line where war DID happen), why stop there? He's always wanted a war between mutants and humans because he knows mutants would win, what better way than to start it turning humans' own weapons against them? That incidentally were created to kill mutants.

The pivotal factor in the future war that could end up in human and mutant deaths alike were the sentinels, but they were no longer a liability when Magneto took control over them, so he had no need of just shutting down the sentinel program when he could destabilize the entire country's government with his little play.

That ironic act of war, the stadium barrier, and the last presidential assassination on live TV seem very logical to me and within the confines of the Magneto character.

So again, yeah sure, he could have spoiled Trask's little party, mutants would still be treated like **** despite that, so the situation had potential to be more, so why stop there? And why does that make him an idiot?

 

[Khev]

Didn't Cap kill bad guys in TWS? If not, he did in Avengers and TFA.

Also, you can have a good guy who kills people.

I clarified that a few posts ago when I said:

Oh yes, I meant "good guys that are actually good and don't kill innocents."

 

[tylerdurden]

Yup, I mentioned the same thing some pages ago, while playing devil's advocate.

It was perfectly in character, once Magneto had control over the sentinels (which he would not have unless he was aware of them before they were activated, ergo, previous time-line where war DID happen), why stop there? He's always wanted a war between mutants and humans because he knows mutants would win, what better way than to start it turning humans' own weapons against them? That incidentally were created to kill mutants.

The pivotal factor in the future war that could end up in human and mutant deaths alike were the sentinels, but they were no longer a liability when Magneto took control over them, so he had no need of just shutting down the sentinel program when he could destabilize the entire country's government with his little play.

That ironic act of war, the stadium barrier, and the last presidential assassination on live TV seem very logical to me and within the confines of the Magneto character.

So again, yeah sure, he could have spoiled Trask's little party, mutants would still be treated like **** despite that, so the situation had potential to be more, so why stop there? And why does that make him an idiot?

while yours is a valid way of looking at it, i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. it's out of character because magneto came off stupid, something he had never been portrayed as until this film. and he's stupid because he was sabotaging his own kind's best chance at survival even when he was told that killing trask was the very thing that would lead to mutant-kind's doom.

controlling just one batch of sentinels doesn't guarantee a thing. if he'd killed trask and the president there'd undoubtedly be others to continue the work that was already in full force. these are military-contracted machines built en masse so lots more could be despatched and he wouldn't be able to get the jump on them the next time. and remember the humans had already gotten mystique's dna samples so adaptive future sentinels were only a matter of time. so even if magneto had won that one battle he'd lose the ultimate war.

 

[karamazov80]

as far as i'm concerned (and i'm surprised there aren't more people who see this), magneto turned into a bloody idiot in the 3rd act. he had the perfect chance to foil trask's sentinel programme by making these human weapons look like they'd malfunctioned by secretly manipulating them to attack the humans. right in front of president nixon no less, who would've immediately taken trask to task (hey, it rhymes). instead, he chose to go with a big show-off-my-mutant-powers moment and demonstrate to the humans even more why mutants should be feared/hated.

i know magneto is a murderous extremist, but he is also supposed to be crafty and intelligent. he knows full well that the future fate of all mutant-kind rests on putting an end to the sentinel programme. he could've accomplished it so much more easily via deception or sabotage but because the filmmakers wanted a huge finale, they went with this instead. just felt like lazy writing and an out-of-character moment to me. other than that, i enjoyed the film.

Well I think he could have helped scrap at least that existing Sentinel program that way--he could have discretely taken out Trask and the entire Sentinel base of operations earlier in the film. But, that action would have done nothing to quell public antipathy toward mutants (not that he cares about that anyway), or to help bolster the support of his movement in the mutant community (which he cares very strongly about). I think you can view his public performance as the terrorist action that it was meant to be, and from that POV, he's following the same strategy that terrorists around the world would use. He would have made a huge, dramatic show that resulted in increased fear and likely a disproportionate retaliation by the government that would have actually helped to bolster his support in the mutant community. Of course, Mags wouldn't want there to be a threat to mutant existence like future Sentinels. But he definitely would want the mutant community to feel threatened and angry at humans. Terrorist groups thrive following this mindset, and official governments arguably do the same from time to time.

So, they didn't explicitly explore these issues in the movie, but I don't think it's a stretch to think this was the case, which follows the various actions Mags has taken at other points in the franchise to bring negative attention to mutant kind for the purpose of promoting his own agenda, not just of mutant survival, but of mutant influences and dominance.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

Exactly. Which is also why Mags is the bad guy and Charles is the good guy. Of course the reasonable, level-headed thing to do is not antagonize your potential enemy. But Mags is governed by his strong passion and hatred to humans and has to show his superiority. Charles would be more prone to do something smart and simply discredit Trask and leave it at that.

 

[pturtle]

while yours is a valid way of looking at it, i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. it's out of character because magneto came off stupid, something he had never been portrayed as until this film. and he's stupid because he was sabotaging his own kind's best chance at survival even when he was told that killing trask was the very thing that would lead to mutant-kind's doom.

controlling just one batch of sentinels doesn't guarantee a thing. if he'd killed trask and the president there'd undoubtedly be others to continue the work that was already in full force. these are military-contracted machines built en masse so lots more could be despatched and he wouldn't be able to get the jump on them the next time. and remember the humans had already gotten mystique's dna samples so adaptive future sentinels were only a matter of time. so even if magneto had won that one battle he'd lose the ultimate war.

Magneto didn't come off as stupid, there was more to it then just starting a war, it was to make a statement for all the mutants who were in hiding, and ashamed of who they were. Magneto broadcasting everything was also to inspire all the mutants around the world, show them they don't have to live in the shadow of H0m0-sapiens, that they are the next step in evolution, start an uprising.

Magneto's plan was far more brilliant than framing Trask. Mutants are going to start rebelling because of Magneto, and some might even join his Brotherhood, and he'll have the sentinels to control.


Trask stated that they needed more than just that DNA sample from Raven to continue on the project. In the original timeline, she is captured and tortured. So the future Sentinels still weren't a possibility until she's captured.

Also remember, Magneto knows where the sentinels were being manufactured, the program would not be able to continue after he murders Trask because Magneto would probably go back there and either destroy the place or kill everyone working there.

EDIT: just saw Kara explained it perfectly.

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