Zack Snyder's Rebel Moon

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Listen after what was the freaking Acolyte with that stupid whip, stupid green bald lady and her wimpy excuse for a man assistant this thing is a masterpiece.

This is a man’s man movie it reminded me of the 80s and just the fact that a woman was crying for her white male lover who saved her is a freaking miracle in itself lol
 
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Blaming Spider-Man GIF
 
Anyway, watched part I last night and, while better than the PG13 version, its flaws are still very apparent.

- ZS definitely is not a writer.
- While a great "visualist", he should let someone else do the cinematography, as his style becomes tedious and overbearing.
- He needs a good producer to reign in his more indulgent tendencies (e.g. over use of slow-mo)

Overall, the longer running time helps make the movie and the actions/motivations of the characters more coherent, but it does not solve the problems with the script. And some of the added scenes try to flesh out characters, but suffer from Snyder's not-so-great writing. A prime example for that are Jimmy's scenes: superficially beautiful, but with no real substance.
There's still a lot of stuff there that seems directly lifted form other movies, just made in ZS style. I mean, he even lifted a scene from freaking Schindler's List FFS! I couldn't believe what I was hearing...

At first the nudity seemed a bit gratuitous, but Aladar makes a good point... Will check out part II tonight to see if he's right.

Somebody mentioned this being like a Heavy Metal comic put on the screen, and that is exactly what it most resembles. However, I would venture that most Heavy Metal stories, especially from the 70's and early 80's were better written and more thought provoking than Rebel Moon.
 
I watched director’s cut Part 2 Curse of Forgiveness. Here again the full version at 2:53 is a very different experience than the 2:01 PG13 cut. And again, as opposed to the PG13 cut the characters feel properly developed. Once again, because the story is more naturally and organically paced and has room to stretch out, the tone also becomes more grounded and serious by comparison. I’m struck by how much more serious it feels.

The use of flashback narration in Rebel Moon comes across to me as a stylistic choice. We’re seeing how memory of crucial things that shaped the course of characters’ lives and personalities continually lives on in them in the present moment. The flashbacks frame memory as a form of fantasy, imagination. I really like how it is done. It has a fantastical dreamlike aura. The flashbacks are shown like vivid dreams.

The scene of Kora’s flashback of the royal assassination in which the chamber ensemble continues to play throughout—including that it directly mirrors of the intense emotional impact of that slaughter—is part of that imaginal and fantastical element of memory. It’s not literal. It’s Kora’s unconscious psyche reliving the event as she relates it to Gunnar.

Just a thought to consider: This is my own head canon, but I feel that it would make sense for Titus to ask everyone to share their pasts as a form of intelligence gathering in order to try to get a sense of whether any of them could be a mole. To study and assess what they say measured against what Titus knows as a military commander given his past access to military intelligence. To read their body language as they tell their story. The team has already been betrayed once, i.e., by Kai. If that is baked into the scene (and it may not be, but if) it is communicated in that scene through nonverbals and context. If something like that is going on, like so like many things in real life it is there to be inferred because it tends to operate below the threshold of conscious awareness and thought.

I enjoyed the film overall. But I had three main problems with Part 2.

First is that the grain harvest slows down the flow of the movie—an action film!—in a way that strains it.

Second, given that I experience the film in this longer form as more serious in tone, the real world implausibility of gathering the harvest, milling it and getting it into sacks, and digging a tunnel system (!) all within 5 days with that number of people strains credulity. This speaks for itself, so I won’t elaborate any further on it.

And third, the action of the big battle in the village isn’t as epic feeling as it ideally could be.

Regarding the first point above: The grain harvest creates a healthy positive counterpoint to the evil of the Imperium. I understand the intent to celebrate it. To dote on it, even. Fun fact: for those scenes Zack and Debbie Snyder had planted an actual wheat field and the film’s cast actually harvested it!

And I’m perfectly fine with the harvest being mostly slow motion. Snyder has explained that he loves using slow motion as much as he does because he wants to give our brains the opportunity to take more in compositionally, and in terms of detail and nuance to the action. Here it serves to celebrate something life-affirming and healthy, which is fine. Yet something feels off about it.

The harvest scene isn’t strange because most of it is in slow motion. It seems a-kilter because it feels carefree, relaxed, and joyous. The music is in the same vein—as if they had all the time in the world. It doesn’t convey the stress and urgency that the villagers would have given the five day timeframe they’re working within to prepare for the Imperium’s imminent onslaught. That creates a logical disconnect.

A handful of the shots of the harvest are visually pretty. But where there is beauty to the harvest scenes (when it isn’t boring), that arguably isn’t a sufficient payoff for the lag in the pace of an action film. If the harvest scenes had been fewer and hauntingly beautiful in terms of their cinematography it might have worked. But they don’t rise to that level. And there is too much time spent on it.

As for the third point of criticism mentioned above: Zack Snyder has said that Part 2 is a “war movie” and the director’s cut does portray the horrific brutality of war—especially with those sorts of plasma blaster weapons. To see what the firepower of those weapons does to the body makes the combat scenes feel more realistic and grounded. Which works.

And because it is sci-fi/fantasy we can accept that the elite fighters assembled by Kora somehow defy the odds to amazingly avoid getting hit amidst the stream of enemy fire.

But honestly, I expected some really amazing fight choreography from the elite fighters. It was just sort of middle of the road for me. It wasn’t a complete letdown or anything. It just didn’t wow me. Except for Nemesis and Kora they didn’t really distinguish themselves as next level fighters. Like Nemesis, Kora does impress us with her fight choreography in her scenes aboard the King’s Gaze. The whole subplot of Kora and Gunnar’s mission to destroy the King’s Gaze was well executed.

All scenes with Jimmy and the Kali are wonderful.

The sheer physicality of the space ships, i.e., the King’s Gaze dreadnaught and the squadron of dropships and tanks, is really well done. It feels very satisfying.

I’d give the director’s cut of Part 2 a B-.

Summary point is that both director’s cuts taken together make the feel story feel more grounded and realistic, which increases a sense of stakes. I’m very much a fan of this story and the characters overall and I want to see it continue. I want to see the team of Kora, Titus, Tarak, Milius, and Jimmy head off on a mission to find Princess Issa.
 
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Just finished part 2 and yeah, overall it was epic!
I disagree on the bad story/ script, sure it steals liberally from lots of things, but that’s the nature of all art.
And boy oh boy does Snyder know how to film action, the final battle was insane.

Anyhoo, I hope it’s successful and he gets to make more, if not at least we got a couple of decent flicks.
 
@Alatar maybe the processing of the grain is automated. It's just the removal from the ground had to be done by hand.

Maybe… But the village has a traditional water powered stone mill. And Sindri refuses Noble’s offer for machines to do the work of farming because they believe in staying connected to the land by doing the farming themselves by hand.

I mean, that said, we see that they do have antigravitic platforms to transport the unprocessed wheat. And they have electric lights in their homes. And they live in a society where high technology and space travel is normalized, even if they’re trying to stay connected to the land.
 
Just finished part 2 and yeah, overall it was epic!
I disagree on the bad story/ script, sure it steals liberally from lots of things, but that’s the nature of all art.
And boy oh boy does Snyder know how to film action, the final battle was insane.

Anyhoo, I hope it’s successful and he gets to make more, if not at least we got a couple of decent flicks.

I agree, I think it’s actually a pretty darn good story. For me the script is fine. Serviceable at the very least.
 



Unfortunately there are a lot of reviewers with moderate sized platforms that will simply pick whatever tone or position that will maximize getting viewer engagement through the various algorithms in place across different mediums. It's why a lot tends to skew negative. It doesn't mean something produced is good though, it just means the endless focus on clicks, views, likes, subscribes, etc can overwhelm just some pretty practical analysis.

Disparu can be exhausting. But his real "gimmick" is assessing what should be the ideal show bible or story bible for a film or TV series, then working backwards. A lot of what he does, aside from click bait engagement unfortunately, is pressure testing the actual script.

There's a good film hidden and buried somewhere in the Rebel Moon concept, part of the problem is it's probably four film concepts jammed inside of what we got. If you have a weak script, and if you have marginal actors, then all you have left is spectacle. So, part of the wrinkle to this is Snyder had plenty of competent actors and actresses here, but he's still has to put them in a position to succeed. So, to my viewpoint, he had a mostly competent cast, but his other logistical flaws dragged them down to the level of marginal in total impact. In effect, part of the job is to be self aware enough to realize you need to just rely almost purely on spectacle.

Focus on the best performers you have in your cast so far. In this case, it would be IMHO Ray Fisher ( for all his off camera messes and controversy, his theater background would be helpful here) and Alfonso Herrera ( the Cartel nephew in Ozark ) Both are minimally used here. ( What Hunnam and Hounsou do well is just not a fit for this script) The character of Tarak ( the eagle rider/quasi "Indian / Native American role" guy) is a pretty test case of where some of this went wrong. In order to fight a huge army, you need an army. Or enough of one to combine with other moderate sized forces to fight back and make it seem plausible. In Joss Whedon's Serenity, the only ones could fight the formalized military fleet was the Reavers. Whedon couldn't really hide that very well, but since we loved the characters so much, and a lot of the writing is fun, most people aren't going to hang on that too much. It's pretty obvious, if Rebel Moon went further ( or does), that Tarak and his role as some kind of royalty, will come into play into bringing out another large military force here to fight the Imperium. Add it with the Bloodaxe rebels and some other new group, and that's enough to sell a huge battle scene. Except, Rebel Moon Part 1 and 2 really does nothing with Tarak. He's not well developed. It's not played well by a competent actor. Even if he was a competent actor, Snyder gives him zero fighting chance with the script he's been given. You need to make a functional story today, not lay the seeds of a future story not promised to anyone where that character stagnates. Can you get away with something like that elsewhere? Sure, a video game. Or an 80's after school cartoon where the typically demographics is a viewership that averages about 9 years old.

Writing a film script that can legitimately break out is incredibly hard. Very few people reside in the territory of a David Mamet or a Neil LaBute, where they have an innate built in ability for it. Part of the struggle is you need structure. You need to actually add in some tired tropes at times too. Because there aren't a ton of ways to skin the cat here. It's hard to break through when script after script looks and sounds the same. A good writer can however take the routine and add in elements that make it stand out. That draw attention. That will resonate with a casual viewing audience. So fundamentally sound scripts, many are just plain boring. They are often repetitive. But here's the key point, having that structure in the first place gives you a fighting chance at a functional narrative. Without it, you are going to crash and burn.

Part of good writing is you have to be willing to "kill your own baby" You have to be able to take the parts of what you wrote, that you love the most, that speaks to you as an individual, or might be some great fan service or gives a chance to truly put a spotlight on a character you love, and then you have to live with killing it off. If it doesn't serve a functional narrative. This is part of the problem here for Snyder. He can't kill the baby. And he's been around too long and had too much success to try to pretend he doesn't know better. Rebel Moon Parts 1 and 2 have no fundamental structure to it. They just don't. This is where I'm supposed to be diplomatic and say everyone is different, everyone has a viewpoint, to each their own or the classic "you do you brother". But in this case, anyone who wants to try to sell you on RB1&2 having any kind of fundamental narrative structure to it is probably also holding a crack pipe in their hands at the same time.

When you are in this situation as a filmmaker, just give spectacle. Large space ship battles, starfight dogfights, light saber battles, hand to hand combat, shoot outs, ambushes, executions, just endless carnage, violence and savagery. Someone will say, "But three hours of that non stop, you won't have character development, you won't have much of a plot, you won't have practical narrative arcs, you won't have any kind of emotional connection with the audience!"

OK, but you don't have character development now. You don't have much of a plot now. You don't have practical narrative arcs now. You aren't creating any kind of emotional connection with the casual viewing audience now. That's happening already. You've got nothing left to lose. Giving the casual audience spectacle is like just like teenage boys in middle school in the 80s swapping Playboy / Penthouse magazines and VHS **** tapes. ( I'm giving @jye4ever some flashbacks here, sorry brother)

Let's simplify this some -





This is Odette Yustman in The Unborn from 2009. She's a barely marginal actress and relatively mediocre overall performer. The script was bad, even though I like a lot of what Goyer normally does. The rest of the cast was not helping anyone. No one was able to uplift the material presented. The plot, narrative, character arcs, character development and all the rest were effectively tanked and busted. But it had some spectacle. The movie poster is literally a snap shot of a still of the scene above. Guess which part turned into the movie poster? Do two straight hours like the scene above and people would still be talking about this movie today. Non stop. ( My old friend @jye4ever is probably and literally downloading it right now. :lol ) Now consider I'm talking about it right now. What does that tell you in terms of giving the fans something, anything, some consolation to hold onto?

If you want to keep surviving in the industry, sometimes you have to be self aware enough to realize that all you have left to give in a tough situation is a consolation prize to everyone.
 
So.
Did part II last night and my opinion hasn't changed. Some nice spectacle, some great visuals, but it's nowhere near Snyder's best work.
Alatar makes a great point about the whole harvesting sequence, and I would like to add that it also fails in really driving home the opportunity to create the bonds between the villagers and Kora's fighters. It's just a bunch of (mostly) slow-mo shots that serve no real purpose. There are only two vaguely built moments of bonding: Tarak fulfilling his Oedipus complex fantasies and the little kid awed by Nemesis, but those actually work without the harvesting sequence...
Another example of Snyder not being very good at writing is General Titus' drinking. We see him drinking, but it never posits a problem, so when he chucks his booze for water and the group find out, it's meaningless.
And finally, the goddammed slow-mo. There are some amazing moments, but since there is so much slow motion in the entire movie, those moments lose their impact. Not every moment can be "special". When left alone, Snyder seems incapable of deciding what is the really important part that he wants us to look at. Instead of making the battle sequences a visceral experience, the constant barrage of brains and guts being blown off in slow motion becomes meaningless. There is no urgency to it. Imagine if Coppola had filmed the entire helicopter attack in Apocalypse Now in slow motion, or if Spielberg had filmed the Omaha Beach sequence in slow motion in its entirety. Or to bring it closer to home, what if Lucas had filmed the boarding of the Tantive IV in slow motion?

Oh well.
Let's hope Snyder gets a good writer and a good producer for his next films. I really believe there is a great filmmaker in there, as attested by BvS and 300.
 
The elephant in the room is the question of whether the idea to make both PG13 cuts and director’s cuts, and to release the PG13 cuts first, is truly Zack’s.

I’m a huge Snyder fan. But there, I said it, lol!

Did Netflix actually insist that it be this way? Why would they not have agreed simply to let him film and release the R-rated version? I actually have my doubts that they demanded PG13 cuts be made as well. I mean, the assumption is that they wanted to be able to license out a family friendly version on other platforms that would get more ad revenue. But that has never actually been explicitly stated yet either Zack or Netflix.

We may never get the answer. But even if it was entirely Netflix’s idea, I do suspect that Zack actually really liked the idea—and liked it a lot! Because in his mind it gave him an opportunity to present what he hoped would be a master class on what the market forces do to the pure raw creative artistic vision behind a film. As I’ve said this a number of times, I believe that the scene of Tarak taming and riding the bennu (gryphon) expresses Zack’s feelings about what the studio’s money driven mode of production does—as Zack has said “making films by focus group”— to the artistic vision that lives in the imagination of the director. It shackles that wild creature. So with the difference between the PG13 cuts and the director’s cuts Zack aimed to show us the shackled and unshackled versions of his inner vision for the film, as it lives in his psyche, i.e., naturally, “in the wild.”

There is a strange situation here in which Zack was given complete freedom to make both versions of the story. With the PG13 cuts he is making what he considers to be a “tamed,” confined, self-censored version of that artistic inner vision, a version that reflects how studios envision it as focus group driven product.

It was clearly a mistake to do this.
 
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Another observation about director’s cut Part 2. The desaturation of color to Veldt in some scenes really struck me. It was almost devoid of color. From a scientific point of view, the atmosphere of a jovian moon could well be different. There is a reddish tint to the sky overall because the gas giant Mara is red. So maybe at certain times of the day there are atmospheric effects where the spectrum of light does funny things. But stylistically it is a curious choice. Because the lack of color feels counterintuitive to Veldt emotionally.
 
The elephant in the room is the question of whether the idea to make both PG13 cuts and director’s cuts, and to release the PG13 cuts first, is truly Zack’s.

I’m a huge Snyder fan. But there, I said it, lol!

Did Netflix actually insist that it be this way? Why would they not have agreed simply to let him film and release the R-rated version? I actually have my doubts that they demanded PG13 cuts be made as well. I mean, the assumption is that they wanted to be able to license out a family friendly version on other platforms that would get more ad revenue. But that has never actually been explicitly stated yet either Zack or Netflix.

We may never get the answer. But even if it was entirely Netflix’s idea, I do suspect that Zack actually really liked the idea—and liked it a lot! Because in his mind it gave him an opportunity to present what he hoped would be a master class on what the market forces do to the pure raw creative artistic vision behind a film. As I’ve said this a number of times, I believe that the scene of Tarak taming and riding the bennu (gryphon) expresses Zack’s feelings about what the studio’s money driven mode of production does—as Zack has said “making films by focus group”— to the artistic vision that lives in the imagination of the director. It shackles that wild creature. So with the difference between the PG13 cuts and the director’s cuts Zack aimed to show us the shackled and unshackled versions of his inner vision for the film, as it lives in his psyche, i.e., naturally, “in the wild.”

There is a strange situation here in which Zack was given complete freedom to make both versions of the story. With the PG13 cuts he is making what he considers to be a “tamed,” confined, self-censored version of that artistic inner vision, a version that reflects how studios envision it as focus group driven product.

It was clearly a mistake to do this.
Yup big time!

Should’ve been R cuts wham bam thank you maam!

Would’ve been much better received.

I like them just for pure 80’s style testosterone fantasy action with a hot naked chick.
 
The elephant in the room is the question of whether the idea to make both PG13 cuts and director’s cuts, and to release the PG13 cuts first, is truly Zack’s.

I’m a huge Snyder fan. But there, I said it, lol!

Did Netflix actually insist that it be this way? Why would they not have agreed simply to let him film and release the R-rated version? I actually have my doubts that they demanded PG13 cuts be made as well. I mean, the assumption is that they wanted to be able to license out a family friendly version on other platforms that would get more ad revenue. But that has never actually been explicitly stated yet either Zack or Netflix.

We may never get the answer. But even if it was entirely Netflix’s idea, I do suspect that Zack actually really liked the idea—and liked it a lot! Because in his mind it gave him an opportunity to present what he hoped would be a master class on what the market forces do to the pure raw creative artistic vision behind a film. As I’ve said this a number of times, I believe that the scene of Tarak taming and riding the bennu (gryphon) expresses Zack’s feelings about what the studio’s money driven mode of production does—as Zack has said “making films by focus group”— to the artistic vision that lives in the imagination of the director. It shackles that wild creature. So with the difference between the PG13 cuts and the director’s cuts Zack aimed to show us the shackled and unshackled versions of his inner vision for the film, as it lives in his psyche, i.e., naturally, “in the wild.”

There is a strange situation here in which Zack was given complete freedom to make both versions of the story. With the PG13 cuts he is making what he considers to be a “tamed,” confined, self-censored version of that artistic inner vision, a version that reflects how studios envision it as focus group driven product.

It was clearly a mistake to do this.
he swears that Netflix asked him for it. basically forced it. but it don't make much sense. it really do not
if it's the same streaming and people will have equal access, why. why do this. .
 
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