Aliens,Predator and Terminator Q&A (Anything!)

[Toni Plutonij]

There´s always the discussion if not the resistance was lead by another individual than John Connor, before he was conceived by Kyle and Sarah and where the first T-800 came from, but Cyberdyne Systems never build Terminators BEFORE Skynet.
They only reverse engineered Skynet from the Model 101, Skynet itself bombed Russia and those in retaliation the USA and after that happened Skynet startet to build H-K´s.
Technically every machine in the skynet future is a H-K, but the description changed when they started looking human, that´s why they´re called Terminators and when they achieved the capability to infiltrate the resistance camps they´re branded Infiltrators.
Skynet just used the posibilities that it got with the materials, making clunky machines and used them to build factories and that´s why it proceeded to make better machines.
The Humans NEVER made ONE SINGLE TERMINATOR, even when T3 showed something like that, with the T-900, it´s clear nonsense and one of the reasons why almost nothing of which occured in the T3 timeline was mentioned in T4.

Tsss...900´s before T-1...yeah right. Mostow sure did screw up the timeline and T4 almost restored it, so even when McG made worse mistakes and left tons of stuff out, he kinda let T4 make the timeline have "sense" again, EVEN with Marcus Wright in it.

This is more or less the way how I understood the storyline, and how I think about it..

In my opinion, original storyline led to believe that artificial intelligence built the machines that went in the war with humans, some of those machines were Terminators, I really don't believe that humans built them (at least I haven't found any firm proof of that fact), later in story, Cyberdyne did get ahold of some pieces of the blown up Terminator (as it was destroyed in their factory), and they did try to re-build the CPU (I still didn't see any human build terminators in T2), however, this is where T3 steps in, and I disagree with every statement and change, this movie made about Terminator universe

 

[SilentSurfer]

Help, I need a translator.

Erm, still, my question then is.....Who built the first Terminator that was sent to past in the first movie?! Before John was born? And before Cyberdyne Systems got the parts of it to reverse engineer?

Skynet, Terminators, and John exist because of the causality time loop. They exist because they both created the situation for each other to come to be. Without Skynet sending the Terminator, Kyle would not have gone back, and John would not exist. Without John, the Terminator would not have gone back in time, been crushed by Sarah, and Skynet would then not exist. There was no beginning without time travel, no original timeline.

Also, I believe that it is generally accepted that CSM-101 is the marking for the skin pattern/model, his look in the human form..
As to why it's called Cyberdyne, and not Skynet Systems Model 101, it could be number of things if we'll guess, I personally haven't found the firm proof why is it to that?

I can see where you're coming from. You think CSM-101 doesn't mean that Cyberdyne had one made, but it could have come from specs. I'm open to that possibility, but Kyle gives full credit for Skynet and the model of the Terminator to Cyberdyne, so it is my opinion that Cyberdyne fully developed both, except Cyberdyne could not have gotten as far as Cyborgs with their Endos, only rubber skin, which Skynet later improved upon.

I understand that getting in the "alternate" timeline, after T1, Cyberdyne could have been working on Terminator, but it still isn't the reason enough to explain who built that very first one we see, the "evil" Arnold if you wish!

Two possibilities on that. Skynet built the actual Terminator that was sent back, but it was still based on the designs reverse engineered from the 1984 remains. Cyberdyne designed it. The actual Terminator may been built as late as 2029.

Or, Cyberdyne had built a whole bunch of them on an assembly line for the military, but because the AI would not have been ready, they probably had no deployment until after the war when Skynet could give them 'life'.

Kyle talks about the Terminators by saying, "Terminators are the newest, the worst," meaning the worst machines Skynet has thrown at them to date. This also means they were reserved for the end of the war, or that Cyberdyne or the military had boxed them up innitially, being unable to make them function properly.

On a global genocide, and sweep and clear method of war, Terminators would have been very inefficient tools for Skynet to use, bt when the Resistance keeps getting closer, and stronger, and hides better, the large HKs become ineffective, and infiltration is key. Skynet either finds the boxed up Terminators, or simply starts up the factory again to make these infiltrators. Originally, it may have used the 600 rubber skin jobs made by Cyberdyne, but those got spotted easily because they looked fake, not because they were McG's Hulk scale freaks. Cyberdyne developed artificial skin to make them 'look human' and make them much more efficient. The skin gave them the side benefit of being able to time travel.

How's that?

 

[SilentSurfer]

BTW, to all the newbs. Welcome aboard. No hard feelings. I'm really a nice guy. Terminator is like a second religion to me, but it's all friendly discussion. Peace.

 

[abnpredator]

Here's a question. Where is my PredAlien Bust SIDESHOW?!!

 

[Toni Plutonij]

BTW, to all the newbs. Welcome aboard. No hard feelings. I'm really a nice guy. Terminator is like a second religion to me, but it's all friendly discussion. Peace.

Well of course No hard feelings at all....We're discussing something we both have big interest in!

I do agree on some parts with you, yet on another parts, I've developed a bit different understanding of the story

Help, I need a translator.
Sorry, English isn't my native language, so it's sometimes hard to express right!

Skynet, Terminators, and John exist because of the causality time loop. They exist because they both created the situation for each other to come to be.
Actually, there HAS to be original timeline, original situation that caused the time loop!
There had to be Terminator at some point in the future, who was sent back in time, to kill Sarah Connor. That Terminator was made by Skynet, artificial intelligence, and no humans took part in building it.

Without Skynet sending the Terminator, Kyle would not have gone back, and John would not exist.
This, you can't be sure about! In the original timeline, who says that Sarah Wouldn't have a child with some guy, and named him John, without Kyle, and without Terminator sent back in future. They would have normal life, and only in the future that child would grow to be the leader of the Resistance, by sending back Terminator, Skynet simply SET THE FUTURE of John, to be the man who is their primary target!

Without John, the Terminator would not have gone back in time, been crushed by Sarah, and Skynet would then not exist. There was no beginning without time travel, no original timeline.
.
That's true, but then again, we don't know if that is the same John, as is in this timeline (child of Sarah and Kyle). That is my point, there would be John, as long as Sara would have a child, who says it HAD to be Kyle as a father, it could easily be the next guy in her life

And as for Skynet not existing, I believe it would, only further in the future..This travel back in time only made it come by faster, as they were introduced to the far superior technology!
In my opinion, at some point in the future, Artificial Intelligence would become self aware, and that would be the beginning of the whole War!

I can see where you're coming from. You think CSM-101 doesn't mean that Cyberdyne had one made, but it could have come from specs.
That's only one way to look at it, I don't actually think that's it, but I believe that it is a possibility!

I'm open to that possibility, but Kyle gives full credit for Skynet and the model of the Terminator to Cyberdyne, so it is my opinion that Cyberdyne fully developed both, except Cyberdyne could not have gotten as far as Cyborgs with their Endos, only rubber skin, which Skynet later improved upon.
Have you ever thought that Cyberdyne (as Kyle refereed to it), was simply a factory, a place where machines are built! Skynet is the intelligence, but Cyberdyne is the place where they are "born".
I don't see the point of humans developing machines with rubber skin?
In my opinion, Terminators were far superior technology to Hunter Killer machines, as such they were developed way after war started.
Skynet felt the need for them at the point when no other machine was suitable for human extinction! All HK were too big, and ineffective, as they couldn't get to hideouts!



Two possibilities on that. Skynet built the actual Terminator that was sent back, but it was still based on the designs reverse engineered from the 1984 remains. Cyberdyne designed it. The actual Terminator may been built as late as 2029.
I think I understand now, the main point where our views part!
You think that there is no first time that Terminator was sent back to past! And that there was always that time loop.
I think that there had to be original situation, where Skynet decided to terminate leader of human resistance, and sent back one of the infiltrators to kill his mother! This decision actually created the time loop, and also pre-destined John Connor as the leader.

Or, Cyberdyne had built a whole bunch of them on an assembly line for the military, but because the AI would not have been ready, they probably had no deployment until after the war when Skynet could give them 'life'.
I really don't think that technology was nowhere near ready, for humans to build bunch of Terminators and pack them away just because "software" wasn't produced. Dyson, while reversing the CPU created huge chip, while original was way smaller. If humans were about to reverse the build up of the robot, I believe it would have been way bigger and bulkier, then T-800 is.
Simply, no technology.


Kyle talks about the Terminators by saying, "Terminators are the newest, the worst," meaning the worst machines Skynet has thrown at them to date. This also means they were reserved for the end of the war, or that Cyberdyne or the military had boxed them up innitially, being unable to make them function properly.
Yes, I agree that they were made at the end of the war, however, I think Skynet made them because they didn't have any other way to find human hideouts, not that they were "boxed" away, and only pulled out, because Skynet had the appropriate AI!

On a global genocide, and sweep and clear method of war, Terminators would have been very inefficient tools for Skynet to use, bt when the Resistance keeps getting closer, and stronger, and hides better, the large HKs become ineffective, and infiltration is key. Skynet either finds the boxed up Terminators, or simply starts up the factory again to make these infiltrators. Originally, it may have used the 600 rubber skin jobs made by Cyberdyne, but those got spotted easily because they looked fake, not because they were McG's Hulk scale freaks. Cyberdyne developed artificial skin to make them 'look human' and make them much more efficient. The skin gave them the side benefit of being able to time travel.
I agree with most of this, except the part that Cyberdyne (while run by humans) had anything to do with the actual development and build of the machines!

How's that?

You have some good points, and to most of it, I agree.....Except, I simply refuse to believe that Terminators were built by humans..
Even if you want to take second timeline in consideration, and say that humans did reverse engineering on it to build it, it was Skynet who made that first one who was sent back in time
I'm basing my whole theory on the first, original happenings.

I'm open to change my opinion if I find any facts confirming otherwise, or if I hear/read somewhere that Cammeron imagined it that way. After all, it's his story

 

[Superman]

Whoa, whoa, whoa whoa, whoa! Where the heck did you two come from. You guys are late to the party. The regulars in this thread have already beaten this horse. Go back and read this entire thread. Yes, the timeline issue is a brain scrambler, but I've already accounted for everything. I'll go ahead and address a few points again for the newcomers here though.



Yes, humans did build Terminators. Cyberdyne made its name off of the designs and programming they reverse engineered from the chip and the remains of the 1984 Terminator which they ultimately developed through military contracts. T2 clearly shows that they have the parts. Not to mention that it's called, by Kyle, Cyberdyne Systems model 101, not Skynet model 101. At least the prototypes, and probably remote controlled versions of them (Skynet A.I. not ready yet), minus cyborg skin; probably with rubber skin, would have to have been already built before the war for them to be called Cyberdyne models, wouldn't they.



No. The only alternate timeline is from the moment the T-1000 and the second T-800 arrive in 1995, which leads to the destruction of the Cyberdyne building, which then lands all of the Cyberdyne patents in the hands of Cyber Research Systems (CRS), as seen in T3.



True, but the fact that it exists at stems from the fact that Cyberdyne had the remains from the 1984 Terminator, which gave Cyberdyne the model from which to build.



First, WTF does HICKS have to do with anything! This isn't Aliens! For that alone you need to GTFO. You clearly aren't one to be making sense of Terminator mythology. And it's spelled 'Cyberdyne', not 'Cyberdine'.

Second, There is a time loop that cannot be broken which creates both John and Skynet. By trying to kill Sarah, Skynet inadvertantly made sure John would be born, and unknowingly began its own existance by putting the T-800 into the past where its chip would be found. Neither of them exist without the other.

And what is this 'Kyle wouldn't have known about John until he went back and altered time with Sarah' BS. Are you ____ing kidding me? Kyle wouldn't have gone back to save Sarah if John hadn't sent him. The whole reason Kyle volunteered to go back is because John gave him that picture of her and told Kyle all about her. Kyle fell in love with her secretly, but John made sure it would happen. Besides, Kyle even tells Sarah he would die for John Connor. How can you miss that point?



What?! What?! John grew up knowing that Skynet would send a Terminator after his mother. She would have told him that. Hell, she was making tapes about it when he was still a bun in her oven. She told him all about Kyle being his father, too. Didn't you watch the movie all the way to the end? If John doesn't exist without Kyle, and Sarah made all those tapes, then John could not possibly have simply put two and two together about Kyle. John knows what's going to happen. He knew all about it before he was ten years old; before his mom got arrested and put in an assylum.






Without the events of T2, Marcus would not be on death row because Judgment Day would have happened already in 1997. After T2, the events concerning him would not have changed from what was seen in TS.



Because Cyberdyne was always responsible for making the model 101 Terminator, and the source of its design comes from what was left in their factory at the end of T1. It's a causality loop. Terminator gets sent back. Remains found in factory. Cyberdyne makes Terminator based on remains. Probably get military funding for it and Skynet which is being developed from the chip. Skynet goes online and starts the war. Skynet uses Terminators to hunt down strategic targets in the growing threat of the rising Resistance toward the end of the war. The T-600s (probably as far as Cyberdyne ever got in the design process) are not as effective at infiltration as Skynet needs them to be, so it developes cyborgs from the 600s, making them 800s by way of numeric progression. The Resistance still defeats Skynet, but Skynet uses time displacement to send an 800 after Sarah to make sure John is never born to defeat Skynet. Kyle goes after it. John is born. Time loop repeats, but gets altered by the destruction of Cyberdyne building in T2. Remains to be seen where it will end.

Any questions?

English is my second language, I am hispanic, so excuse my typo's. As for me naming Hicks instead of Kyle Reese, a simple mistake since they are the same actor and I had watched Aliens the same day. I'll read all of this thread, but it will take time. There has to be more than two timelines since you have the chicken and egg argument. Reese (Hicks as I called him above) had to have been born before John Connor. That is why I mention that we do not see the first timeline where Kyle Reese is sent back by someone else (since his son doesn't exist yet) and he has to meet Sarah Connor in the past and impregnates her. His mission then was to destroy skynet and not to save Sarah. THe timeline we see in Terminator 1 has to do with John Connor discovering that the Terminators have sent back in time a T800 to kill his mother.He in the future in that timeline does not know for sure Kyle Reese is his father (or he assumes it because he has the same name as his father learnt thru his mother) but sends him back anyways to protect his mother. John gives a picture of his mother to Kyle for reference. In T2, the moment the T1000 gets sent back changes the timeline once more. Once that failed, the TX was sent back changing the timeline a fourth time. And in Salvation they revive Marcus Wright in order to infiltrate and trick John into rescuing Kyle Reese. Ultimately this explanation is the best I can come up with after watching all the movies many times. SilentSurfer, there has to be a timeline at some point where John Connor did not exist yet until Kyle Reese went back in time and impregnated Sarah Connor. Now that even did not have to happen at the exact moment in time it did in T1, however it had to have happened in that order.

1. First unaltered timeline before the time machine was built : Skynet takes over and becomes self aware at a later point in time than we know of in the movies. Kyle Reese (at an unknown age) gets sent back or sends himself back in order to stop Skynet creating a whole new timeline where John Connor exists.

Timeline 2: Kyle meets Sarah Connor and impregnates her while attempting to destroy Skynet. Obviously his son John is more successful in this timeline gathering a resistance prompting skynet to send back a Terminator to kill Sarah so he wouldn't be born starting a new timeline (3) however John learns of this and sends back Kyle with a picture of his mother to save her. At that point he does not know Kyle is his father. We can only guess at the ages of John and Kyle at this point, however Kyle is probably 25-30 and John would be 10 years or so older.

Timeline 3: This is what we see in Terminator 1 which leads to John surviving and speeding up the process cyberdyne creates the T800 because of the parts found in the factory. So Skynet, losing the war once again thanks to John Connor sends back the T-1000. This creates timeline 4.

Timeline 4: THe T-1000 is unsuccessful and Cyberdyne and their lead scientist are gone. However Arnold leaves behind his arm again which is found and Cyberdyne continues with the research along with the Government and skynet and judgment day occurs again. However John is successful at almost defeating the machines once more in the future. Which prompts Skynet to send back the TX in order to speed up the formation of skynet (Timeline 5) now that the internet is all around the world as opposed to the 80's and kill all of the resistance members (Colonels) they know about including John and his wife. They actually succeed in speeding things up and kill key colonels however they fail to kill John and his wife. Terminator Salvation is the continuance of this timeline...

We can assume the TX is sent back to speed things up by implanting the virus and that she also uploads all of her knowledge of the future as well in order to speed up skynets ability to make the perfect infiltrator. The TX uploaded this info either embedded into the Virus, or into the T1-2 unit she switched on. Which is why Marcus Wright was able to be revived and used in Salvation as the ultimate infiltration unit and using a more advanced endoskeleton structure. Humans are needed to perform the intricate heart and body surgery, no machine could have done that operation. In this timeline, skynet knows the other previous models T800 and T1000 as well as the TX failed in their missions. However they have to keep sending them all back to the same time in order for events to keep on occurring as they do. WHich makes me believe Skynet does not know Kyle Reese is John's father, because if they did they simply don't send the T800 back which prompts Kyle to go back allowing John to be born but the events in the first unaltered timeline get repeated since no T800 arm gets left behind. So if Skynet does know Kyle is John's father, not messing up the future may be the reason they have to keep sending back the failed Terminators to the exact moments in time knowing they will fail...So surfer, do you agree with any of my theories about the timelines? I count 5 of them and no less.

 

[shocktrooper_au]

Ok here's question sorry if it's been asked.
Why if Marcus was executed back in 2003, why his he still the same appearance in 2018?, why was Marcus selected (why pick some criminal from the past when they have a wide selection of prisoners in the future? & also Marcus appears to be far more sophisticated technology wise then the original Terminator (smaller frame more realistic size for an infiltrator, fully passes for a human) . Isn't he supposed to be an earlier model?? even pre dates the t600??

I always assumed that Arnold Terminator was the 1st model to include real skin blood etc. I always assumed as well the T600 where similar to the animatronic we see in T1 when the eye is being removed sort of real looking (again not like the salvation hulks)

 

[PapitoMX]

Very good questions there

 

[PapitoMX]

Where's SilentSurfer??

 

[Toni Plutonij]

1. First unaltered timeline before the time machine was built : Skynet takes over and becomes self aware at a later point in time than we know of in the movies. Kyle Reese (at an unknown age) gets sent back or sends himself back in order to stop Skynet creating a whole new timeline where John Connor exists.
Skynet becomes self aware, and starts the war. Creates all kind of machines to lead the war against human race. T-800 gets sent back in past to kill Sarah Connor, mother of the John Connor (at this point, we don't know father of John Connor), leader of the Resistance. Kyle Reese gets sent back to protect her.

Timeline 2: Kyle meets Sarah Connor and impregnates her while attempting to destroy Skynet. Obviously his son John is more successful in this timeline gathering a resistance prompting skynet to send back a Terminator to kill Sarah so he wouldn't be born starting a new timeline (3) however John learns of this and sends back Kyle with a picture of his mother to save her. At that point he does not know Kyle is his father. We can only guess at the ages of John and Kyle at this point, however Kyle is probably 25-30 and John would be 10 years or so older.
By sending them in past, we automatically get in Timeline 2, as past is changed. Sarah doesn't live a normal life any more (as she did in previous timeline), her whole life is changed. She meets Kyle, and fights T-800. They fell in love and she gives birth to a son that is John Connor, but with different father. (paradox, I know, as he'll actually meet his own father in the future)
Even if this John Connor maybe wasn't fit to be leader of Resistance, he's MEANT/DESTINED to be one, as Skynet "marked" him with his birth.

In this very timeline, Cyberdyne obtains pieces of damaged T-800, and starts reverse engineering on CPU, trying to recreate Artificial Intelligence.

Timeline 3: This is what we see in Terminator 1 which leads to John surviving and speeding up the process cyberdyne creates the T800 because of the parts found in the factory. So Skynet, losing the war once again thanks to John Connor sends back the T-1000. This creates timeline 4.
This timeline actually starts from the same timeline as Timeline 1 (the original one), as T-800 failed to kill Sarah Connor, and John Connor still exists in the future, and leads the Resistance. Skynet sends T-1000 back to past, desperate on the edge of loosing the War!
T-1000 is the ultimate product of the Skynet, and Skynet itself is afraid to create it and "activate it", as it doesn't know how it'll act. At this point, all we know is that T-1000 is supposed to be indestructible, most intelligent creation walking on earth!
Resistance captures T-800, and John reprograms it, sending it back to the past to protect his young self!
This act creates alternate timeline to Timeline 2, getting us to Timeline 3!
In this timeline, Sarah is the warrior, the "Terminator" amongst humans
They destroy the pieces of the first T-800 sent from the first timeline that led to the second. Altering the timeline and the future once more, and "preventing" the Judgment Day!
That leads to postponing of Skynet existence, but doesn't prevent it, which basically lead us to the basic timeline 1 (but altered), where Skynet is the Artificial Intelligence that gained conscious, and starts the war!

I don't go beyond first two movies, even tho Salvation is on the right track of main points. It's too much to think and explain things rationally as is with the first two movies.

This is basically my point of view!

 

[Superman]

Ok here's question sorry if it's been asked.
Why if Marcus was executed back in 2003, why his he still the same appearance in 2018?, why was Marcus selected (why pick some criminal from the past when they have a wide selection of prisoners in the future? & also Marcus appears to be far more sophisticated technology wise then the original Terminator (smaller frame more realistic size for an infiltrator, fully passes for a human) . Isn't he supposed to be an earlier model?? even pre dates the t600??

I always assumed that Arnold Terminator was the 1st model to include real skin blood etc. I always assumed as well the T600 where similar to the animatronic we see in T1 when the eye is being removed sort of real looking (again not like the salvation hulks)

shocktrooper_au,
Marcus is not an earlier model. Read my timeline theory in the post above yours and it answers your questions. Everytime the timeline changes, skynet becomes more powerful more quickly. That was the purpose of Terminator 3's TX model. She went back in time to kill off the Colonel's including John and his soon be future wife. The TX brought back technology way way more advanced and placed that knowledge into that version of skynet. She succeeded in that regard but as well as killing some colonel's that are a part of 4th timeline future John. However that timeline is gone and the 5th alternate timeline is where skynet is able to create the advanced cyborg by reviving Marcus. Skynet explains this at the end of Salvation. So Marcus is the most advanced infiltrator model that we know of created by skynet. Think of the game "Operation" where you have to be very careful and precise not to hit the walls while operating. Now imagine a large clunky machine hand trying to do the same thing. The machines had the knowledge of how to create Marcus when they sent the TX back, but needed humans to perform the surgeries necessary at that point in time by cyberdynes advanced human robotics engineers. I'll put in quotes my explanation of the timelines again so you can re-read them.

1. First unaltered timeline before the time machine was built : Skynet takes over and becomes self aware at a later point in time than we know of in the movies. Kyle Reese (at an unknown age) gets sent back or sends himself back in order to stop Skynet creating a whole new timeline where John Connor exists.

Timeline 2: Kyle meets Sarah Connor and impregnates her while attempting to destroy Skynet. Obviously his son John is more successful in this timeline gathering a resistance prompting skynet to send back a Terminator to kill Sarah so he wouldn't be born starting a new timeline (3) however John learns of this and sends back Kyle with a picture of his mother to save her. At that point he does not know Kyle is his father. We can only guess at the ages of John and Kyle at this point, however Kyle is probably 25-30 and John would be 10 years or so older.

Timeline 3: This is what we see in Terminator 1 which leads to John surviving and speeding up the process cyberdyne creates the T800 because of the parts found in the factory. So Skynet, losing the war once again thanks to John Connor sends back the T-1000. This creates timeline 4.

Timeline 4: THe T-1000 is unsuccessful and Cyberdyne and their lead scientist are gone. However Arnold leaves behind his arm again which is found and Cyberdyne continues with the research along with the Government and skynet and judgment day occurs again. However John is successful at almost defeating the machines once more in the future. Which prompts Skynet to send back the TX in order to speed up the formation of skynet (Timeline 5) now that the internet is all around the world as opposed to the 80's and kill all of the resistance members (Colonels) they know about including John and his wife. They actually succeed in speeding things up and kill key colonels however they fail to kill John and his wife. Terminator Salvation is the continuance of this timeline...

We can assume the TX is sent back to speed things up by implanting the virus and that she also uploads all of her knowledge of the future as well in order to speed up skynets ability to make the perfect infiltrator. The TX uploaded this info either embedded into the Virus, or into the T1-2 unit she switched on. Which is why Marcus Wright was able to be revived and used in Salvation as the ultimate infiltration unit and using a more advanced endoskeleton structure. Humans are needed to perform the intricate heart and body surgery, no machine could have done that operation. In this timeline, skynet knows the other previous models T800 and T1000 as well as the TX failed in their missions. However they have to keep sending them all back to the same time in order for events to keep on occurring as they do. WHich makes me believe Skynet does not know Kyle Reese is John's father, because if they did they simply don't send the T800 back which prompts Kyle to go back allowing John to be born but the events in the first unaltered timeline get repeated since no T800 arm gets left behind. So if Skynet does know Kyle is John's father, not messing up the future may be the reason they have to keep sending back the failed Terminators to the exact moments in time knowing they will fail...So surfer, do you agree with any of my theories about the timelines? I count 5 of them and no less.

Silent Surfer believes in the "causality time loop" however my version of time travel (multiple timelines) makes a whole lot more sense and is what is used in the Back to the Future movies for starters. Doc Brown explains it well to Marty on the chalkboard. The "causality time loop" theory does not apply in the logic of that movie series and unless you make T3 and T Salvation disappear, then it doesn't make a lick of sense since there would be no explanation for changes to when events happened and newer technologies introduced. My multiple timeline theory makes the most sense adding and explaining all the movies as cannon. (not the deleted scenes) lol..

 

[EndoSickness]

BTW, to all the newbs. Welcome aboard. No hard feelings. I'm really a nice guy. Terminator is like a second religion to me, but it's all friendly discussion. Peace.

Thx a lot, but where does that place me with my understanding of the story?!

It´s not that much of a religion for me, but the franchise I care about the most and I started really early with this.

Casualty time loop´s not THAT wrong, but it can just never be a perfect loop, in the new loop, little things do little changes, but the overall experience stays the same, just with the exception of, for example, years, so that the T-800 came online in 2018, 10 years before John almost even thought about it.

So technically Marcus IS an earlier model, but with the achievements of the previous movies timelines and I guess he was build with the same kind of revese engineering how the first T-800 came to be: The chip and skull of the T-850, which possessed skynet.
So he planted the stuff in the past, maybe through another Terminator (Aliens VS Predator VS Terminator-like with kind of a temporal Terminator or like T: SCC) Cyberdyne found this anew, build the Endoskeleton, so that skynet could use Marcus to infiltrate the resistance and look how Humans would react to a machine with skin and stuff?

How about this?

 

[SilentSurfer]

Lots of stuff to get through here. "I'll be back."

 

[Superman]

Thx a lot, but where does that place me with my understanding of the story?!

It´s not that much of a religion for me, but the franchise I care about the most and I started really early with this.

Casualty time loop´s not THAT wrong, but it can just never be a perfect loop, in the new loop, little things do little changes, but the overall experience stays the same, just with the exception of, for example, years, so that the T-800 came online in 2018, 10 years before John almost even thought about it.

So technically Marcus IS an earlier model, but with the achievements of the previous movies timelines and I guess he was build with the same kind of revese engineering how the first T-800 came to be: The chip and skull of the T-850, which possessed skynet.
So he planted the stuff in the past, maybe through another Terminator (Aliens VS Predator VS Terminator-like with kind of a temporal Terminator or like T: SCC) Cyberdyne found this anew, build the Endoskeleton, so that skynet could use Marcus to infiltrate the resistance and look how Humans would react to a machine with skin and stuff?

How about this?

At the end of Terminator Salvation, Skynet has a nice monologue explaining that they created Marcus. No reverse engineering occurred because all the information on how to do it was left behind by the TX in Terminator 3. That was perhaps the TX's primary mission in-case she failed. Please re-read my multiple timeline explanation as there is no way to explain a causality loop if you take into account all the movies combined. If you remove the alternate ending in Terminator 2 where Sarah is speaking to John in the playground, you can have a causality lop as Silent Surfer and you like because nothing can change. Not the present or the past because they keep looping forever. Once time has changed and Judgement Day is postponed, it is a different future that hasn't been written yet as John and Sarah say multiple times. At that point you have to go with the multiple timeline theory in order for any of it to make sense. Just like in the recent Star Trek movie. So Nero goes back in time and destroy's Vulcan. THe moment he went back in time a new timeline was created. The original timeline he was from and Spock was from still exist, but without them. This is how you must take the Terminator franchise and all the movies. I am not taking into account any of the novels, comic books, or aliens vs predator vs terminator etc. This is just me having watched all the movies and dissecting the events in order as they happened. 5 time-lines is not that hard to explain as I have done. It is just hard to accept if you subscribe to a single timeline "causality loop" theory where people get erased from existence and so forth. Obviously I believe in the parralel universe multiple timeline theory where once someone travels back in time, you have created a new parallel universe and cannot go back ever to your exact timeline, even if you travel further back than you were born. The reason I believe that theory is that if you travel back in time a thousand years, the moment you breath the air a new parallel universe is formed since the first time around you were not there. This is how I explain my timeline above and it makes perfect sense if you look at it that way. SilentSurfer can call me a noob and tell me to GTFO and so forth. However he has the right to believe what he wants to believe, it just doesn't make either of our theories wrong or right. I just will have an easier time than he explaining the chicken and the egg argument In this case, Kyle Reese had to have been born before John Connor in order for John Connor to exist at all. And so my timeline accounts for those events which we do not see in the movies. My theory also puts into perspective "time-travel" in our real world questions as to why we do not see any time traveler tourists for example that we know of popping in from the future. The answer is so simple that it is a wonder why so many scholars haven't thought of it. We are living in the original timeline, the first, where time travel hasn't been invented yet. The moment it is invented and someone travels back in time, a new universe is created which would mean we would never see any time travelers within this timeline ever if it is the original. I hope I have made myself clear to everyone reading in explaining things as my English is not the best. Thank you Silent Surfer for putting me down for misspelling a few things and telling me to GTFO and so forth. Learn some manners. I'll repost what you said below.

First, WTF does HICKS have to do with anything! This isn't Aliens! For that alone you need to GTFO. You clearly aren't one to be making sense of Terminator mythology. And it's spelled 'Cyberdyne', not 'Cyberdine'.

Second, There is a time loop that cannot be broken which creates both John and Skynet. By trying to kill Sarah, Skynet inadvertantly made sure John would be born, and unknowingly began its own existance by putting the T-800 into the past where its chip would be found. Neither of them exist without the other.

In my theory there is no time loop, and the way the stories are written a timeloop does not make sense unless you are so close minded and you delete T3 and Salvation from existence along with the alternate ending...Once Judgment Day was postponed your time loop ended which means there never was one to begin with.

 

[SilentSurfer]

You have some good points, and to most of it, I agree.....Except, I simply refuse to believe that Terminators were built by humans..
Even if you want to take second timeline in consideration, and say that humans did reverse engineering on it to build it, it was Skynet who made that first one who was sent back in time
I'm basing my whole theory on the first, original happenings.

I'm open to change my opinion if I find any facts confirming otherwise, or if I hear/read somewhere that Cammeron imagined it that way. After all, it's his story

Lets go ahead and say there was a pure 'original' timeline free of time travel and Terminators and chips. In such a case, who then invented the Skynet technology? Dyson said (paraphrase) in T2, "It (the chip) gave us new ideas; took us in new directions; things we never would have thought of..." To me, that's Cameron's way of saying that if the chip had not been found, Skynet would have never come to be, and time, in that case, would be just as it really is for you and me.

Without the insights from the chip, Skynet does not get developed. No Skynet> no Judgment Day> no Resistance> no Terminators> no Time Displacement Equipment> no T-800 to 1984> no Kyle to 1984> no John Connor and no Terminator remains for Cyberdyne to find in their factory> no chip found> no Skynet. No causality time loop, no alternate timelines, no nothing. In fact, it creates somewhat of an opposite causality loop.

If what you do today affects the future, but the future can affect the past, then what happens today can affect the past. Chip gets found = Terminator gets sent back in time. No chip = no Terminator. Skynet, Judgment Day, the Resistance, Terminators, and John Connor all hinge on the events of 1984 with a Terminator and Kyle coming back in time. None them exists unless that happens. With me so far?

That said, there was no timeline where Skynet alone built Terminators. If Skynet itself must come from the broken chip, then Terminators originated from the Endo remains. Cyberdyne leads the way in cyber research because of those discoveries in the factory. Why would they keep the parts and never build a Terminator. Of course it would be top secret. Not even Dyson knew what all was going on.

"You know, I asked them that same question once. You know what they told me? 'Don't ask'." -Dyson

Whether the heads of Cyberdyne figured out what they had, or they wanted to make sure 'whoever built it' didn't find out they had it, they kept the originins of it, and what they were doing with it, a secret. Sarah's account of events at the factory surely made them more than paranoid, so much so that they covered it all up.

"Those lying mother____ers!" -Sarah, after hearing about it from Dyson.

So, if Cyberdyne had the remains to work from, and they had the funding, there's is no way they weren't building these humaoid robots that could be sold at premium cost for military or industrial use.

 

[Toni Plutonij]

Lets go ahead and say there was a pure 'original' timeline free of time travel and Terminators and chips. In such a case, who then invented the Skynet technology?
Let's see what Skynet is, it's an Artificial Intelligence.....program, that became self aware...it gained consciousness!
It actually invented itself. It was a program, started by humans, but never finished, as once it became self aware, it only kept on growing and growing!
You know that Skynet isn't in T-800, Skynet programmed T-800 (it's the only a small small part of Skynet intelligence), and set it to Read only.
So that means, even if Dyson managed to completely re-construct the CPU, he wouldn't actually create Skynet!

That's my point, humans didn't actually create Skynet, they did create only part of it, they started it.
Take it like this, do humans create trees? NO, they plant seeds, if one does not plant a seed, the tree won't grow, however, once you get it to start growing, it'll grow independantly!

Dyson said (paraphrase) in T2, "It (the chip) gave us new ideas; took us in new directions; things we never would have thought of..." To me, that's Cameron's way of saying that if the chip had not been found, Skynet would have never come to be, and time, in that case, would be just as it really is for you and me.
I think you're reading too much into this line. Maybe it gave him, and certain group of people ideas. But in "original" timeline, maybe there was completely different group of scientist who worked on developing an Artificial Intelligence....
Still, no matter how big paradox of time looping is, there has to be a initial timeline, some happeining that started it. By your logic, that loop existed from the beginning of the time?!
There had to be somone who built the first T-800, before he was sent in the past, without humans getting the remains of it..
That is the fact, not guessing, there HAS to be something first!


Without the insights from the chip, Skynet does not get developed.
No, there is no evidence on this, there isn't one single fact that claims that Skynet wouldn't exist without the CPU, quite the opposite, CPU wouldn't exist without the Skynet, and there HAD to be Skynet for CPU to ever exist.

No Skynet> no Judgment Day> no Resistance> no Terminators> no Time Displacement Equipment> no T-800 to 1984> no Kyle to 1984> no John Connor and no Terminator remains for Cyberdyne to find in their factory> no chip found>
I agree up to this point, but the fact is, that Skynet exists without this particular CPU!
no Skynet. No causality time loop, no alternate timelines, no nothing. In fact, it creates somewhat of an opposite causality loop.

If what you do today affects the future, but the future can affect the past, (future can affect past ONLY if there is a time machine)then what happens today can affect the past (no because, there is no time machine, you can't change what already happened, unless you get to go back and force a change). Chip gets found = Terminator gets sent back in time. No chip = no Terminator. Skynet, Judgment Day, the Resistance, Terminators, and John Connor all hinge on the events of 1984 with a Terminator and Kyle coming back in time. None them exists unless that happens. With me so far?
I am with you, understand your interpretation, but disagree, as something had to create that very first T-800.

That said, there was no timeline where Skynet alone built Terminators.
But there is, the very first movie.....It was made with no T2 storyline in mind!
If Skynet itself must come from the broken chip, then Terminators originated from the Endo remains.
Do you understand how this senseless sounds.....Terminators originated from one Terminator? But where did that first Terminator originated from? It's own remains? nope...just doesn't work for me..
Cyberdyne leads the way in cyber research because of those discoveries in the factory. Why would they keep the parts and never build a Terminator. Of course it would be top secret. Not even Dyson knew what all was going on.

"You know, I asked them that same question once. You know what they told me? 'Don't ask'." -Dyson

Whether the heads of Cyberdyne figured out what they had, or they wanted to make sure 'whoever built it' didn't find out they had it, they kept the originins of it, and what they were doing with it, a secret. Sarah's account of events at the factory surely made them more than paranoid, so much so that they covered it all up.

"Those lying mother____ers!" -Sarah, after hearing about it from Dyson.

So, if Cyberdyne had the remains to work from, and they had the funding, there's is no way they weren't building these humaoid robots that could be sold at premium cost for military or industrial use.
There is certain mystery about the way they all talked about it, and I could agree that this makes sense, but that doesn't change the fact, and my belief, that initially, Machines were built ONLY by Skynet, and even if humans did build Terminators in T2 (as there is still no hard evidence, only hunches to that), it was still Skynet who did the original design, design that we all love

Still, not convinced......too much guessing and ideas not backuped by facts.

 

[SilentSurfer]

English is my second language, I am hispanic, so excuse my typo's.

My apologese for being rude. I'll try to be more patient.

=Superman]As for me naming Hicks instead of Kyle Reese, a simple mistake since they are the same actor and I had watched Aliens the same day.

Just watched it last night myself. One of the greatest movies of all time.

=Superman]There has to be more than two timelines since you have the chicken and egg argument. Reese (Hicks as I called him above) had to have been born before John Connor. That is why I mention that we do not see the first timeline where Kyle Reese is sent back by someone else (since his son doesn't exist yet) and he has to meet Sarah Connor in the past and impregnates her. His mission then was to destroy skynet and not to save Sarah. THe timeline we see in Terminator 1 has to do with John Connor discovering that the Terminators have sent back in time a T800 to kill his mother.He in the future in that timeline does not know for sure Kyle Reese is his father

My last post above will explain my take on this whole concept perfectly. There would have been no original timeline not involving timetravel if Skynet or John exist. If Kyle gets sent back, it's because of John, and for no other reason.

=Superman]In T2, the moment the T1000 gets sent back changes the timeline once more. Once that failed, the TX was sent back changing the timeline a fourth time. And in Salvation they revive Marcus Wright in order to infiltrate and trick John into rescuing Kyle Reese.

Using the Back to the Future: Doc Brown's blackboard model, yes, each time somebody goes back in time and changes something, it would create a scew in the timeline creating an alternate, parallel timeline where peoples and events are changed. For me, T1 was a perfect causality time loop which would have repeated infinitely until they blew up the Cyberdyne building in T2. Everything after that is an alternate timeline to the original loop. Outside the loop, all bets are off as to how the war ends, whether John still leads mankind to victory over Skynet, and if Kyle will even survive long enough to go back in time and leave John in Sarah's womb. Cameron actually screwed up his own first story by doing T2. His original ending to T2 was a shiny happy future ending without the war, but Hollywood wanted to milk more money out of the Terminator cow. Now people like you and I have to try to make sense of it all.

Since we don't know what would have happened after T2 if the TX hadn't shown up, that timeline is irrelevant, and there are still only two timelines represented in the movie franchise, the one that leads to the events of 1984, and whatever other bull____ they give us next.

=Superman]
1. First unaltered timeline before the time machine was built : Skynet takes over and becomes self aware at a later point in time than we know of in the movies. Kyle Reese (at an unknown age) gets sent back or sends himself back in order to stop Skynet creating a whole new timeline where John Connor exists.

If Skynet somehow got thought of even without the chip being found, Judgment Day would have been decades later as we in 2010 still don't have that level of technology (that we know of). If the war did start at some point in the future, there is now no guarantee that Kyle or Sarah would even be in the right place to survive it. Both of there lives would have nothing to do with preparing for or fighting a war. Kyle, himself, was born after the original 1997 start of the war, so his mother at least survived that war's start date, but there's no telling where Kyle would be if the date changed. And Sarah would probably be married to some guy, have kids, and be otherwise normal, not trained in weapons and ready to teach her son to lead mankind.

If the war starts late, and there is no John, then the Resistance (if there is one) would not defeat Skynet by 2029, and even if it did, Kyle would have no purpose in going back since a Terminator would not have gone after the mother of somebody who was never a threat to Skynet, nor even exist. If there is no Kyle to go back from 2029, to 1984, then there is no John Connor since he is the product of Sarah and Kyle and Sarah's knowledge of what is to come for him. It's because of her tapes and training him that John knows what's to come and is able to become the leader of the Resistance at all.

=Superman]Timeline 2: Kyle meets Sarah Connor and impregnates her while attempting to destroy Skynet. Obviously his son John is more successful in this timeline gathering a resistance prompting skynet to send back a Terminator to kill Sarah so he wouldn't be born starting a new timeline (3) however John learns of this and sends back Kyle with a picture of his mother to save her. At that point he does not know Kyle is his father. We can only guess at the ages of John and Kyle at this point, however Kyle is probably 25-30 and John would be 10 years or so older.

Read that again, especially the part about a 10 yr old sending a 25 yr old back in time to save his mother.

Timeline 3: This is what we see in Terminator 1 which leads to John surviving and speeding up the process cyberdyne creates the T800 because of the parts found in the factory. So Skynet, losing the war once again thanks to John Connor sends back the T-1000. This creates timeline 4.

Read last post about original time loop.

I'll have to update this post later with more. I'm off to see Avatar in IMAX 3-D again. "I'll be back" again.

Timeline 4: THe T-1000 is unsuccessful and Cyberdyne and their lead scientist are gone. However Arnold leaves behind his arm again which is found and Cyberdyne continues with the research along with the Government and skynet and judgment day occurs again. However John is successful at almost defeating the machines once more in the future. Which prompts Skynet to send back the TX in order to speed up the formation of skynet (Timeline 5) now that the internet is all around the world as opposed to the 80's and kill all of the resistance members (Colonels) they know about including John and his wife. They actually succeed in speeding things up and kill key colonels however they fail to kill John and his wife. Terminator Salvation is the continuance of this timeline...

We can assume the TX is sent back to speed things up by implanting the virus and that she also uploads all of her knowledge of the future as well in order to speed up skynets ability to make the perfect infiltrator. The TX uploaded this info either embedded into the Virus, or into the T1-2 unit she switched on. Which is why Marcus Wright was able to be revived and used in Salvation as the ultimate infiltration unit and using a more advanced endoskeleton structure. Humans are needed to perform the intricate heart and body surgery, no machine could have done that operation. In this timeline, skynet knows the other previous models T800 and T1000 as well as the TX failed in their missions. However they have to keep sending them all back to the same time in order for events to keep on occurring as they do. WHich makes me believe Skynet does not know Kyle Reese is John's father, because if they did they simply don't send the T800 back which prompts Kyle to go back allowing John to be born but the events in the first unaltered timeline get repeated since no T800 arm gets left behind. So if Skynet does know Kyle is John's father, not messing up the future may be the reason they have to keep sending back the failed Terminators to the exact moments in time knowing they will fail...So surfer, do you agree with any of my theories about the timelines? I count 5 of them and no less.[/QUOTE]

 

[SilentSurfer]

Still, not convinced......too much guessing and ideas not backuped by facts.

To that I say, there's no further point in trying to convince you. Not all are called to believe in the gospel of Terminator.

 

[Toni Plutonij]

He mant that John would be 10 years, or so, older then Kyle

But I do believe in the "gospel" of Terminator.....More then I maybe make out to..
I'm a huge fan, and I've read a lot of articles on the movie, lots of interviews with Cameron talking about it, from what I write, you can see that I have given it a lot of thought, only came up with different conclusion

 

[Superman]

SilentSurfer,

I still cannot see how you believe only two timelines are represented in the movie's when we have 3 different Terminators traveling back in time along with one human.

As for there being no Skynet at all if the original Terminator hadn't come back in time and left his chip and arm behind?

My observations lead me to believe Cyberdyne and Skynet the first timeline around did occur without the aid of the Terminator chip left behind. However it took at least 10-15 years longer for the T-800 design to be created without having the chip being left behind and studied by Dyson. Now go 40 years into the future and Kyle Reese is a part of the resistance, older than we know him, and learns about the T-800 being sent back in time (for a different purpose than T1, (probably to make sure skynet occurs more quickly) so he must go back after it. (This Timeline happens before T1 since Kyle does not know Sarah yet) So Kyle goes to the past to stop Skynet so Judgement Day doesn't occur. At that point John Connor shows up in the womb of Sarah Connor thanks to Kyle and the rest is history.

Here is another version of how the older Kyle goes back the first time. Same as above however Kyle goes back to the past alone in order to try and stop Judgement Day altogether by destroying cyberdyne and skynet. No Terminator infiltrator is sent back in time yet because they (skynet) were winning the war the first timeline around. This is where Kyle Reese meets Sarah, tells her about Judgmemnt Day and she gets pregnant. John Connor is born and already knows about Skynet through Kyle and his mother so they have an advantage now to stop them. This then leads skynet to send a T-800 back to kill Sarah for the first time. John in the future knows the timeline has changed so he has to send his father (a younger version of him which he gives his mom's picture to so he subconsciously falls in love with her as they were destined to be in whatever timeline) This causes the film Terminator 1 to occur. The fallout of Terminator 1 is that John survives, but Dyson and his team get a hold of the T-800 chip and arm so they cut back how quickly it takes to create the T-800 by about 10 years.

Now either pre-Terminator 1 story fits. It doesn't matter which one you choose, or you can invent what you like. However something must have happened before Terminator 1 was sent back and it is not irrelevant and should not be overlooked when trying to explain things. The chip from the T-800 in Terminator 1 left behind and the arm only are there to speed things up. The machines were going to be built by the same companies one way or another thanks to Government funding and research.