Batgirl The Movie

Collector Freaks Forum

Help Support Collector Freaks Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

Doctor isn't wrong, as far as Jokers goes, he's the closest to the comics we've had so far. It doesn't make him a better joker just because of that though, like you guys are acting like.
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

What u said about jack and ledger is fine, a little accurate even.

Leto joker was too edgy and too gangsta. Take the make up off and he literally becomes this guy...



Cliche over the top gangsta scarface wannabe joker

True, and I will admit you got a point about the gangsta part. However, it has made me wonder why people hate the tattoos so much? That really is the number 1 thing I know people hate. What is the difference between him having joker-based tattoos, and him carrying empty guns, teeth bombs, joker-mobile, etc; the thing is that Joker ALWAYS tries to hard to say "Lookatme! I'm Joker!! hehehe!"

It also is a bit too early to tell with Leto, and I can almost guarantee that people despised Leto the minute his promo shot was put up. Because I barely heard anyone say they disliked his casting beforehand.

Fat Jack was best Joker (live action).


If Joker isn't occasionally wearing his trademark fedora/trench coat, doesn't have bleached skin and green hair/fingernails and doesn't kill people with Joker gas that leaves them with a rictus grin, he's not the Joker.

I agree, those are the kind of schemes that Joker partakes and gets a kick out of it. Or even, it is the first thing he does to get Bat's attention, to lead him to the grand scheme.

What I did like about Jack, was literally just that though. But even then he was too goofy, or maybe it just doesn't translate well. Like setting up Batman, he whips out a pistol; Batman flinches -- BANG!...flag sticks out the barrel, Joker laughs manically

-- That too me translates well in a comic, or a TV show. But live-action? Nah. Or that mammoth revolver? Nope. Just couldn't take him seriously, although he did have a decent gangster persona, and he managed the signature attire pretty well.


I've done plenty of posts of stating why Leto is awesome, and one of the better Jokers; I can understand people's dislike, but every time it gets trolled on and I justify myself, it goes back to trolling and changing the conversations. Give me why people hate Letoker, without riding the wave, and I can bring you a valid discussion.
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

I agree, those are the kind of schemes that Joker partakes and gets a kick out of it. Or even, it is the first thing he does to get Bat's attention, to lead him to the grand scheme.

What I did like about Jack, was literally just that though. But even then he was too goofy, or maybe it just doesn't translate well. Like setting up Batman, he whips out a pistol; Batman flinches -- BANG!...flag sticks out the barrel, Joker laughs manically

-- That too me translates well in a comic, or a TV show. But live-action? Nah. Or that mammoth revolver? Nope. Just couldn't take him seriously, although he did have a decent gangster persona, and he managed the signature attire pretty well.


I've done plenty of posts of stating why Leto is awesome, and one of the better Jokers; I can understand people's dislike, but every time it gets trolled on and I justify myself, it goes back to trolling and changing the conversations. Give me why people hate Letoker, without riding the wave, and I can bring you a valid discussion.





See, I think that's what's great about the Nicholson Joker. He walks that tight rope of the campy, goofy, trickster with Romero and the serious, preachy, terrorist with Ledger. We get a wide range from Jack Nicholson in that two hours, something that Leto's minimal screen time never allowed. Yeah, yeah, the long revolver is goofy but that wasn't a defining moment for Nicholson's Joker. He has others as well, a full spectrum of range. How about burning the mob guy alive with his hand buzzer then talking alone to the corpse? How about his reveal scene where he gleefully keeps firing into Grissom's dead body. How about the scene before that where the doctor is unwrapping the gauze on the Joker's face and he gets a glimpse of what he has become, breaks down crying, then suddenly becomes mad with laughter? His little infomercial where he's showcasing his lethal products that's poisoning the city? That is pure Joker, more so than Ledger acting like a terrorist with his shaky cam home videos or Leto cackling HONKA HONKA. Nicholson gives you scary, weird, pure joy, disgust, etc. at the drop of the hat, sometimes within the same scene. He can be as harmless as Romero to as frightening as Ledger, and back again. He also has substance. His whole philosophy about beauty, death and art is quite brilliant if you allow yourself to look into it. I love how he starts out as vain and self obsessed, but once he encounters Batman and becomes deformed, it brings out the insanity that was always festering underneath to the point where he wants to inflict this distortion on everything around him. In TDK, the Joker wanted to make Gotham's soul as ugly as his was. In 1989, the Joker wants to quite literally make the city as ugly as he is. Joker was scarring people physically and psychologically and killing mobsters long before Ledger or Leto.

If you asked me years ago who was the best, I'd undoubtedly say Ledger, but as the Dark Knight ages, the less I like him. He's great and the clear stand out of that film, but I can only take so much of the tongue flicking and the philosophical monologues about human beings and society. He just comes off as one note, even in humorous scenes (since the humor is almost always dark or gallows humor). Maybe because almost every villain since 2008 has tried to ape him. There's also a lot of things that they clearly aped from Nicholson and Burton, i.e. the mob scenes, pencil vs. pen, getting his face wounded by the Dark Knight's gauntlets, giving away/burning money, defiantly facing death in the streets in the form of the Batwing/Batpod, etc.

Where Ledger and Leto went all method and try hard to be the Joker, I feel like it just came naturally to Nicholson. Almost to the point where he could just sleep through the role and still be intimidating and memorable. He also had more style and flair. That's the difference really. I think audiences got to see more range with the Nicholson Joker than with any of the others, certainly in terms of emotion and character. You get a clear cut beginning, middle and end to his character.



Joker 1A.jpg
Joker 2A.jpg
Joker 3A.jpg
Joker 4A.jpg

Joker 1B.jpg
JokerZ.jpg



And visually? He's just stunning. Like Keaton's Batman, every shot of him was pure artistry as far as film goes. The choices in costume from scene to scene, the way he's lit, it's just really well done. Whereas Romero refused to shave off his mustache, Ledger looked like a dirty bum that got into his grandma's old makeup and Leto got all tatted and blinged up, Nicholson is pretty faithful to all the different interpretations of comic Joker in appearance. It comes down to the look, costumes and gaudy Joker paraphernalia. There's more to the character than the others, especially in the details. His personal gift with letter handwritten in crayon like a 6 year old. His henchmen have personality, from the card rankings to their jackets, to the mob/gang war inflicted wounds on their face. He's got that lucky deck of playing card that influence his cuff links and buttons. He's got stuffed dogs and seagulls to deck out his lair (which is the same factory he was created in, now defaced like he was).



I know people, especially younger critics, love to say that Nicholson played himself but I think there's a clear distinction between Jack as himself and Jack Nicholson the actor playing the Joker. Maybe that argument flies in the first 20 mins where he's just playing a cliched, narcissistic gangster, but once he's shot through the face and falls into the vat of chemicals, I cease to see Jack. Prior to 1989, I never saw Nicholson make insane collages of dead, grinning victims or shake his ass in defiance to Batman whilst talking to a gargoyle. Even beyond the make up and prosthetics, that was pure Joker.



Jack to Joker.jpg
 
Last edited:
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

I think we need to bring this back down a notch, to something not so intricate. Its a movie, have fun with it. But remember those older films are just that and from a different era. As we/society progresses we become desensitized to things, including things that wow or entertain us (unless youre a snowflake lol).

Joker back then was acceptable because of the year, today he would be just silly and not able to take him seriously. That character would be more appropriate for animation not live action today. And thus we see a darker version of that world/universe.

By no means am I discrediting the actors for their portrayal, just comparing then and now. While my opinion on Leto is still out I think he has evolved with time and while he didnt choose the sophisticated mobster look but the thug life look well, crazy is as crazy does.
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

True, and I will admit you got a point about the gangsta part. However, it has made me wonder why people hate the tattoos so much? That really is the number 1 thing I know people hate. What is the difference between him having joker-based tattoos, and him carrying empty guns, teeth bombs, joker-mobile, etc; the thing is that Joker ALWAYS tries to hard to say "Lookatme! I'm Joker!! hehehe!"

It also is a bit too early to tell with Leto, and I can almost guarantee that people despised Leto the minute his promo shot was put up. Because I barely heard anyone say they disliked his casting beforehand.



I agree, those are the kind of schemes that Joker partakes and gets a kick out of it. Or even, it is the first thing he does to get Bat's attention, to lead him to the grand scheme.

What I did like about Jack, was literally just that though. But even then he was too goofy, or maybe it just doesn't translate well. Like setting up Batman, he whips out a pistol; Batman flinches -- BANG!...flag sticks out the barrel, Joker laughs manically

-- That too me translates well in a comic, or a TV show. But live-action? Nah. Or that mammoth revolver? Nope. Just couldn't take him seriously, although he did have a decent gangster persona, and he managed the signature attire pretty well.


I've done plenty of posts of stating why Leto is awesome, and one of the better Jokers; I can understand people's dislike, but every time it gets trolled on and I justify myself, it goes back to trolling and changing the conversations. Give me why people hate Letoker, without riding the wave, and I can bring you a valid discussion.

The tattoos were not even the worst part, i was ready to accept the tattoos if the acting was good but he was too edgy and too gangsta. He barely felt like the joker.
He felt like he belonged in a fast and furious movie or something. Like he belonged in a michael bay movie.
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

DiFabs post is Jack-tastic!!!


The only thing that bugs me about him as the Joker is his age. Just imagining him a decade younger at 40 (looking very similar to your sig) would have made his character that much better.


Then again, everything is a product of it's time. Batman couldn't have come out in the late 70s or 1980 and be what it was.
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

He was pretty scraggily then. He'd look like Hobo-Joker.

He'd be ideal in his Chinatown phase -- all squeaky clean and dandy-ish.
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

The only thing I don't like about Jack's Joker in retrospect is that he screamed in fear when he fell to his death.

I love how Ledger's Joker was just laughing his ass off as he was falling, and disappointed when Batman rescued him. It's was perfect.

As far as Nicholson playing himself, I don't think he plays himself in the sense that he's not acting, because the real Jack is not a psychopath or crazy, but I do think he uses certain qualities that he's known for and that had become part of his "movie persona", which is why he was probably the first and most obvious choice to play Joker.

If you watch his intro in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, you can pretty much see his Joker, which makes sense, since he was acting crazy as soon as he arrives in the mental institution...he even does the same Joker laughs. I think the reason people feel Jack just "played himself" is because he's so recognizable as a movie star with his eyebrows, his smile, the attitude, and his distinctive voice, all which you can still see as the Joker despite the makeup.

On the other hand, Ledger was not as famous when he played Joker and didn't have a well known movie persona, but people had seen him in other films, and were somewhat familiar with him as an actor, but as the Joker he was just completely unrecognizable, even his voice was different, so it probably felt fresh and very distant from anything Ledger was known for at the time.

I like Nicholson, Ledger and Romero. If I had to rank them...

1. Ledger
2. Jack
3.Jerome
4. Romero
5. Hamill's voice in various cartoon episodes and video games.

I was disappointed with Leto's performance and how he was used in the film. All the actors had certain limitations, Romero was on a kid's show, Jack could have been younger and the story better written, Heath was in a grounded setting and couldn't go full showman, Hamill has a nice voice, but can't do it in live action if his Trickster on the Flash is anything go by, and Leto...well.. there's David Ayer's whole vision.

So far, Jerome in Gotham has it all except the "classic" look, unfortunately. He's a mixture of Jack, Ledger, Romero and Hamill. I like him more than Leto.
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

See, I think that's what's great about the Nicholson Joker. He walks that tight rope of the campy, goofy, trickster with Romero and the serious, preachy, terrorist with Ledger. We get a wide range from Jack Nicholson in that two hours, something that Leto's minimal screen time never allowed. Yeah, yeah, the long revolver is goofy but that wasn't a defining moment for Nicholson's Joker. He has others as well, a full spectrum of range. How about burning the mob guy alive with his hand buzzer then talking alone to the corpse? How about his reveal scene where he gleefully keeps firing into Grissom's dead body. How about the scene before that where the doctor is unwrapping the gauze on the Joker's face and he gets a glimpse of what he has become, breaks down crying, then suddenly becomes mad with laughter? His little infomercial where he's showcasing his lethal products that's poisoning the city? That is pure Joker, more so than Ledger acting like a terrorist with his shaky cam home videos or Leto cackling HONKA HONKA. Nicholson gives you scary, weird, pure joy, disgust, etc. at the drop of the hat, sometimes within the same scene. He can be as harmless as Romero to as frightening as Ledger, and back again. He also has substance. His whole philosophy about beauty, death and art is quite brilliant if you allow yourself to look into it. I love how he starts out as vain and self obsessed, but once he encounters Batman and becomes deformed, it brings out the insanity that was always festering underneath to the point where he wants to inflict this distortion on everything around him. In TDK, the Joker wanted to make Gotham's soul as ugly as his was. In 1989, the Joker wants to quite literally make the city as ugly as he is. Joker was scarring people physically and psychologically and killing mobsters long before Ledger or Leto.

If you asked me years ago who was the best, I'd undoubtedly say Ledger, but as the Dark Knight ages, the less I like him. He's great and the clear stand out of that film, but I can only take so much of the tongue flicking and the philosophical monologues about human beings and society. He just comes off as one note, even in humorous scenes (since the humor is almost always dark or gallows humor). Maybe because almost every villain since 2008 has tried to ape him. There's also a lot of things that they clearly aped from Nicholson and Burton, i.e. the mob scenes, pencil vs. pen, getting his face wounded by the Dark Knight's gauntlets, giving away/burning money, defiantly facing death in the streets in the form of the Batwing/Batpod, etc.

Where Ledger and Leto went all method and try hard to be the Joker, I feel like it just came naturally to Nicholson. Almost to the point where he could just sleep through the role and still be intimidating and memorable. He also had more style and flair. That's the difference really. I think audiences got to see more range with the Nicholson Joker than with any of the others, certainly in terms of emotion and character. You get a clear cut beginning, middle and end to his character.



View attachment 336242
View attachment 336243
View attachment 336244
View attachment 336245

View attachment 336246
View attachment 336247



And visually? He's just stunning. Like Keaton's Batman, every shot of him was pure artistry as far as film goes. The choices in costume from scene to scene, the way he's lit, it's just really well done. Whereas Romero refused to shave off his mustache, Ledger looked like a dirty bum that got into his grandma's old makeup and Leto got all tatted and blinged up, Nicholson is pretty faithful to all the different interpretations of comic Joker in appearance. It comes down to the look, costumes and gaudy Joker paraphernalia. There's more to the character than the others, especially in the details. His personal gift with letter handwritten in crayon like a 6 year old. His henchmen have personality, from the card rankings to their jackets, to the mob/gang war inflicted wounds on their face. He's got that lucky deck of playing card that influence his cuff links and buttons. He's got stuffed dogs and seagulls to deck out his lair (which is the same factory he was created in, now defaced like he was).



I know people, especially younger critics, love to say that Nicholson played himself but I think there's a clear distinction between Jack as himself and Jack Nicholson the actor playing the Joker. Maybe that argument flies in the first 20 mins where he's just playing a cliched, narcissistic gangster, but once he's shot through the face and falls into the vat of chemicals, I cease to see Jack. Prior to 1989, I never saw Nicholson make insane collages of dead, grinning victims or shake his ass in defiance to Batman whilst talking to a gargoyle. Even beyond the make up and prosthetics, that was pure Joker.



View attachment 336241

I tried to rep you, I did, but SSF apparently can't deal with all the love I have for this post. You said everything I could say, a thousand times better, and it's just...downright beautiful.
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

I think we need to bring this back down a notch, to something not so intricate. Its a movie, have fun with it. But remember those older films are just that and from a different era. As we/society progresses we become desensitized to things, including things that wow or entertain us (unless youre a snowflake lol).

Joker back then was acceptable because of the year, today he would be just silly and not able to take him seriously. That character would be more appropriate for animation not live action today. And thus we see a darker version of that world/universe.

By no means am I discrediting the actors for their portrayal, just comparing then and now. While my opinion on Leto is still out I think he has evolved with time and while he didnt choose the sophisticated mobster look but the thug life look well, crazy is as crazy does.

Wow. :lol
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

Disclaimer: I did not forget. I just am no longer dignifying posts referring to Señor ****** Canoe's being the best, most accurate Joker with anything even resembling a response. Just know that when you say such horrible things, it upsets your mother a great deal.
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

jesse eisenberg doing lex luthor was a better joker than leto doing gangsta joker....lol.

If jesse eisenberg was in suicide squad instead with the make up, and the suit, he would have been a good classic joker.

jesse eisenberg IS a better actor than leto
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

I tried to rep you, I did, but SSF apparently can't deal with all the love I have for this post. You said everything I could say, a thousand times better, and it's just...downright beautiful.


Thanks buddy, your spirit rep is appreciated.
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

LOL, I edited my post with exactly the same vid before seein' your response! :lol

:hi5:

_

Yeah, it's silly... but that's what I love about BTAS.
I actually love the fact that DCAU Joker becomes a ***** when scared.
 
Re: Batgirl - Written, Directed and Produced by Joss Whedon

One of my top fav scenes of BTAS:



I laugh every freakin' time!
Sassy Dark Knight is the best. :D
 
Back
Top