Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[olbertfrog]

For the record, the Anakin thing was sarcasm, as evidenced by the moment I called him a "little *****." I just find it funny how Uncle George got tons of **** (deservedly so) for having a whiney little snot who was prone to temper tantrums in the spotlight throughout the PT, but JJ has...a whiney little snot prone to temper tantrums in the spotlight, and, suddenly, it's cool.

I also think it's funny how much people excuse based on how much they're invested in something. When Man of Steel came out, there wasn't a peep about how "Clark's carelessness is just setting up his arc in future movies;" it was all "nah, that's just Goyer's ****** writing," but, with Ren, all I hear is "yeah, his rage is a little much, but it's just setting up his character arc to become a more focused and well trained Sith Lord."

Exactly.
Anything you say that is wrong in TFA is answered by its going to pay off in the sequel.
you dont Know that and a movie should b self sufficient and not just set the next one.
This is tv way of doing stuff, TFA is a pilot.
TFA = LOST.

 

[Rorywan]

And The Empire Strikes Back was what exactly?
TFA is part 7 (yes 7) of a 9 part film series. Your argument is illogical.
Star Wars was based on old cliff hanger Saturday morning serials.

It's supposed to be continued.

 

[DiFabio]

There was nothing wrong with Anakin as a character. But he was badly written, badly cast and the badly acted.

Kylo was well written, well cast and very very well acted.

In what way was Kylo better written and well acted in comparison to Anakin? And if those three elements aren't there for Anakin, then how can there be "nothing wrong with him as a character"?

Now I think Adam Driver is a good actor, he's the reason I buy and enjoyed Kylo Ren, but I didn't see a "revelation" in the writing and acting for Ren as a character. I know I'm not the only one that thought I saw Hayden Christensen when he's acting all weird and creepy with Rey during the interrogation scene or screaming TRAITOR at Finn, or getting all teary eyed and conflicted as a red and blue background changes to red. Driver's dialogue for his inner turmoil and conflict before he kills Han is right there with Anakin mumbling about his conflicting, taboo feelings for a certain hot Senator. I saw these things verbatim in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, almost to the point where I'd say it's use for Kylo Ren in Force Awakens is intentional since he aspires to be like granddaddy Vader. I do think it's a tad hypocritical to say that Anakin sucks while saying Kylo Ren is brilliant. Sure, Anakin has some real cringers like the "sand" BS, but overall, it might as well be the same character except Anakin was never so pathetic that he needed to wear a mask to intimidate.

 

[batfan08]

And The Empire Strikes Back was what exactly?

At the end of the day, all I'm saying is that there should be consistency in judgement. If they announce a sequel the week Man of Steel comes out, shouldn't some of the creative choices be given the same leeway that those in Star Wars are given? The fact is, though, that there is no consistency. "WB isn't setting up a character arc, it's just ****** writing. Disney, though, they're planting seeds for a character who will continue to grow over the course of future films."

Olbert's comment about a film needing to be self-sufficient is met with criticism in regards to Star Wars, yet, when people said things along the same lines for MOS, they were met with praise and how the serialized structure of genre movies doesn't excuse having an insufficient film, when judged on its own.

 

[pturtle]

After reading most of the comments in the last two pages, I get the feeling that even "fans" don't even know what the **** they want from a BVS film, because you all have different ideas of what a good BVS is, and some of you even contradict yourselves at times...kind of. One of the major criticism some of you had about MOS was how serious and melodramatic it was and how it wasn't "fun"....now you get silly Marvel humor and one liners in the last trailer and some of you are asking for a "drama" and ...what happened to the film from that initial "awesome" teaser trailer...which got mixed reviews when it was released, but I guess now people love it even though a lot of people didn't like it because it wasn't fun like the SW trailer that was released the same week

The best thing Snyder and WB can do, is not listen to the fans and the criticism and just make the film they want to make, and tell the story they want to tell using this modern "edgy" Superman. And those of you who think Batman will "save" this film, he won't...not as long as Superman is in the film to remind your hate of MOS and Snyder's take on the character.

I never had a problem with the more grounded take on Superman, but MOS just didn't work for me. For a movie taking itself serious, it had way too many issues I couldn't look past like like I could with the Marvel films, because those movies are a big joke to me anyway.

Still though, I had higher expectations for BvS because Gasper convinced me it was all Goyer's fault I'm not sure that was the case though. Everything I'm seeing now, looks worse than MOS in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

And The Empire Strikes Back was what exactly?

An unnecessary sequel to a perfect ending

 

[Rorywan]

In what way was Kylo better written and well acted in comparison to Anakin? And if those three elements aren't there for Anakin, then how can there be "nothing wrong with him as a character"?


Now I think Adam Driver is a good actor, he's the reason I buy and enjoyed Kylo Ren, but I didn't see a "revelation" in the writing and acting for Ren as a character. I know I'm not the only one that thought I saw Hayden Christensen when he's acting all weird and creepy with Rey during the interrogation scene or screaming TRAITOR at Finn, or getting all teary eyed and conflicted as a red and blue background changes to red. Driver's dialogue for his inner turmoil and conflict before he kills Han is right there with Anakin mumbling about his conflicting, taboo feelings for a certain hot Senator. I saw these things verbatim in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, almost to the point where I'd say it's use for Kylo Ren in Force Awakens is intentional since he aspires to be like granddaddy Vader. I do think it's a tad hypocritical to say that Anakin sucks while saying Kylo Ren is brilliant. Sure, Anakin has some real cringers like the "sand" BS, but overall, it might as well be the same character except Anakin was never so pathetic that he needed to wear a mask to intimidate.

Execution, better acting, better direction, better script/dialogue. You can put the story structure and character creation in a separate box.
The concept of Anakin is a good one, even with Lucas' story lines. He just was not executed well. On paper and from a story perspective with the same story outlines for TPM, ATOC and ROTS he could have worked well.

I don't dislike Hayden like many others do, I just don't think he was strong enough as an actor to survive what the prequels were, few actors were. McGregor came out reasonably unscathed but even he had his face palm moments. Most of the dialogue for most of the prequels was terribly written. The romantic candle lit diner in clones being a high point. Now how much of this can be blamed on the actor and how much on uncle George is up for debate.

I thought Driver was genuinely superb as Ren. Petulant, creepy and pissy like a spoilt kid with a very bad temper. And original, the first bad guy with some depth in a SW movie. I thought it one of the best performances of the entire series so far from a straight acting perspective. Certainly the best since Empire. Can't wait to see where his character goes in VIII.

This of course is all subjective.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

See, I'm not sure I like Luthor, but it's one of those things where, like it or not, it's consistent with their vision of the character since day 1. Through promotional material and viral marketing and the articles about him and Lex/OS, we know he's going to be the new, millennial breed of Bilionaire, with the whole Silicon Valley thing going, and, as cringey as it might be....it's accurate. Have you ever seen how some of those guys act at all these TED talks and CES shows? Hell, watch an Apple press conference and they all have that condescending "if I act super-enthusiastic maybe they'll like me" schtick going.

I can hate the interpretation they're going for, but I can't really say that Eisenberg's out of touch with the material he's been given.

I like all the photos and the Lex Luthor interviews. Those are fantastic and well written, imo. If that's the character we get in BVS, I'm fine with it. It was his acting that seemed out of place in the last trailer, like he wasn't on the same page as Affleck and Cavill in that one scene. His other scene were fine...not bad.

I never had a problem with the more grounded take on Superman, but MOS just didn't work for me. For a movie taking itself serious, it had way too many issues I couldn't look past like like I could with the Marvel films, because those movies are a big joke to me anyway.

Still though, I had higher expectations for BvS because Gasper convinced me it was all Goyer's fault I'm not sure was the case though. Everything I'm seeing now, looks worse than MOS in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought MOS was good, with the exception of a few things and and a few scenes. It lacked humor, and that's probably one of the reasons people don't consider it a fun film. I get it, but MOS was the right film for me, and gave me what I was looking for in a Superman film. It was a science fiction film. I liked the the approach they took with Clark because it was bit more believable, imo. Superman isn't perfect and Clark has trouble dealing with the fact that he's not human. One of my favorite scenes was when he discovers the X-ray vision. It could have been a humorous scene like in Smallville with Clark looking at girls, but instead they took a different approach, a bit more realistic, imo.

 

[Rorywan]

An unnecessary sequel to a perfect ending

Yikes!!

 

[olbertfrog]

And The Empire Strikes Back was what exactly?
TFA is part 7 (yes 7) of a 9 part film series. Your argument is illogical.
Star Wars was based on old cliff hanger Saturday morning serials.

It's supposed to be continued.

Lucas gave everything he got in star wars, the movie works perfectly on its own.
He had ideas for the sequels but in case the movie was a flop SW works on its own.
TFA dont.

 

[Khev]

I think you're in denial.

Am I in denial that there are some vocal contrarians who try to perpetuate some micharacterizations about the character of Kylo Ren through message board postings and memes? No, that isn't lost on me. I'm aware of it. Do I put any stock in their bleating? No. All great movies and characters have silly folks who want to "weigh in" with their little criticisms. "LOTR is just some people walking." "Sam and Frodo are gay," "TFA is just a remake," "Kylo Ren is just whiny," bla bla bla. Even The Winter Soldier has "X number of plotholes!!1!" that are supposed to totally blow the whistle on how overrated it is or whatever. It's all dismissible silliness but unfortunately it just comes with the territory when discussing great films on the internet.

 

[DiFabio]

Execution, better acting, better direction, better script/dialogue. You can put the story structure and character creation in a separate box.
The concept of Anakin is a good one, even with Lucas' story lines. He just was not executed well. On paper and from a story perspective with the same story outlines for TPM, ATOC and ROTS he could have worked well.

I don't dislike Hayden like many others do, I just don't think he was strong enough as an actor to survive what the prequels were, few actors were. McGregor came out reasonably unscathed but even he had his face palm moments. Most of the dialogue for most of the prequels was terribly written. The romantic candle lit diner in clones being a high point. Now how much of this can be blamed on the actor and how much on uncle George is up for debate.

I thought Driver was genuinely superb as Ren. Petulant, creepy and pissy like a spoilt kid with a very bad temper. And original, the first bad guy with some depth in a SW movie. I thought it one of the best performances of the entire series so far from a straight acting perspective. Certainly the best since Empire. Can't wait to see where his character goes in VIII.

This of course is all subjective.

I don't hate Christensen either Rorywan, but I still don't think Anakin is anything to write home about. For me he was the least of the prequels' problems. Though I could probably find more things that I like about Anakin in AOTC and ROTS than dislike if I'm being positive. I think Christensen's performance in the Sand people hut when he finds his mother is just as compelling and convincing as what Driver did in Force Awakens and I hate Attack of the Clones. He conveys a lot of different emotions upon seeing his mom strung up like an animal. He goes from sadness to anger in the blink of an eye and is pretty convincing. I know people make fun of his little "I slaughtered them like animals" rant where Luke introduced himself to C-3PO and R2 for the first time, but I don't see anything there that is worse or better than "TRAITOR!!!" or "That lightsaber . . . . belongs to me!!!!". I just think it's hypocritical for people to go gaga over Kylo Ren while dissing on Anakin when they come off as being very similar, despite the fact that Anakin has more character development and reason for going bad!

And if Kylo Ren is the peak of character development, depth and general performance in Star Wars, what does that say about this franchise as a whole? Think about that.

 

[Baneofdemon22]

Didn't someone post a press statement that the film got a standing ovation? Batfan08 is right about us seeing only 5 minutes. I can't judge the film since I haven't seen it, but even if 20 minutes of it are awful, there could over 2 hours of amazing content. I'm still going to keep rooting for it because it's Batman.

For the record, me skipping out on a film during it's theatrical run doesn't mean much. I've seen 2 Batman movies, 1 Iron Man movie, 3 Spider-man movies, 1 Captain America movie, 1 Thor movie, and 1 X-Men movie. That's only 9 out of how many comic book movies that have been released. It's just hard for me to go the theater, so I want to make sure it's worth my time.

 

[karamazov80]

See, I'm not sure I like Luthor, but it's one of those things where, like it or not, it's consistent with their vision of the character since day 1. Through promotional material and viral marketing and the articles about him and Lex/OS, we know he's going to be the new, millennial breed of Bilionaire, with the whole Silicon Valley thing going, and, as cringey as it might be....it's accurate. Have you ever seen how some of those guys act at all these TED talks and CES shows? Hell, watch an Apple press conference and they all have that condescending "if I act super-enthusiastic maybe they'll like me" schtick going.

I can hate the interpretation they're going for, but I can't really say that Eisenberg's out of touch with the material he's been given.

You make a good point here. He's supposed to be representative of a real-life annoying ******, so the fact that he's an annoying ****** maybe should be more forgivable

 

[DiFabio]

That and Luthor on film has never been "comic book Luthor", WB/DC have always made their villains a product of their time with the exceptions being the Schumacher Bat-villains and Kevin Spacey Lex Luthor (who was just doing his best Gene Hackman).

Would have loved that stereotypical, older, Bryan Cranston (or *insert your obvious choice here*) Lex Luthor we all had in our heads, but we never really get that with Warner Bros. It's all about that modern take.

I'm personally tired of the Marvel and DC movies taking place in our time, for situations like the attack on New York or Metropolis being like 9/11, or Joker and Bane or Lex Luthor being an allegory for something going on in our own time. I really would love a period piece Batman or Superman film whether it be something that takes place in the 30s or a balls to the walls 80s Dark Knight Returns style movie in visuals and music ripped straight from that era.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Am I in denial that there are some vocal contrarians who try to perpetuate some micharacterizations about the character of Kylo Ren through message board postings and memes? No, that isn't lost on me. I'm aware of it. Do I put any stock in their bleating? No. All great movies and characters have silly folks who want to "weigh in" with their little criticisms. "LOTR is just some people walking." "Sam and Frodo are gay," "TFA is just a remake," "Kylo Ren is just whiny," bla bla bla. Even The Winter Soldier has "X number of plotholes!!1!" that are supposed to totally blow the whistle on how overrated it is or whatever. It's all dismissible silliness but unfortunately it just comes with the territory when discussing great films on the internet.

I meant that your love for TFA blinds you a bit since you dismiss some valid criticism and views as "internet/forum hate" from "silly folks." Kylo is whinny , TFA does share a lot of similarities to previous films, and Sam and Frodo are gay...well...maybe not, but that look Same gave Frodo was totally Broke Back Mountain level of gay. There's truth to all of and so what?

I just think that it's strange that here you are criticizing the BVS trailer in depth, but when it comes to something you really like, any criticism of it becomes "silly" and "hating on a masterpiece" and "wrong" and calling it a "mischaracterization", even though the comparisons to Anakin or the comparisons to ANH are valid. Even "respected" critics have acknowledged the comparisons ...even the director of the film acknowledged the comparisons and the similarities.

 

[DiFabio]

To be fair, I don't see Khev really criticizing Batman v Superman, and I'm pretty sure he really liked MoS. In fact, between stuff like the Hobbit and Terminator Genisys, I don't think I really see Khev criticize anything. This stuff seems tailor made for someone like him and if he can see the good in all of it year after year, so be it. Not being cynical is a good trait, more power to him.

In fact, I could see come time this spring a ClownPrince that dislikes and criticizes BvS and a Khev that loves and defends it.

 

[batfan08]

That and Luthor on film has never been "comic book Luthor", WB/DC have always made their villains a product of their time with the exceptions being the Schumacher Bat-villains and Kevin Spacey Lex Luthor (who was just doing his best Gene Hackman).

Would have loved that stereotypical, older, Bryan Cranston (or *insert your obvious choice here*) Lex Luthor we all had in our heads, but we never really get that with Warner Bros. It's all about that modern take.

I'm personally tired of the Marvel and DC movies taking place in our time, for situations like the attack on New York or Metropolis being like 9/11, or Joker and Bane or Lex Luthor being an allegory for something going on in our own time. I really would love a period piece Batman or Superman film whether it be something that takes place in the 30s or a balls to the walls 80s Dark Knight Returns style movie in visuals and music ripped straight from that era.

I've been a proponent of the superhero period piece for a long time. Imagine a Superman movie where Lex Luthor is the billionaire industrialist who is actually building America, and then you have Superman who is sort of the champion of the little guy that he was in his earliest appearances, or a Batman movie steeped in noir that gradually escalates from gangsters and crime bosses to colorful and eccentric villains.

 

[a-dev]

It's hard to keep track of who likes and hates what anymore. People who agree with eachother on one thing are disagreeing with eachother about another thing. All this intermixing and cross-mojination of opinions, I can't be having this. Look, everyone just agree with me, right? Whatever my opinion may be on a given film at a particular time. Easy.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

To be fair, I don't see Khev really criticizing Batman v Superman, and I'm pretty sure he really liked MoS. In fact, between stuff like the Hobbit and Terminator Genisys, I don't think I really see Khev criticize anything. This stuff seems tailor made for someone like him and if he can see the good in all of it year after year, so be it. Not being cynical is a good trait, more power to him.

Well, this sounds like criticism (which is fine) ...or perhaps analyzing the flaws in the scenes might be a nicer way to put it.

Ugh it's even worse a second time. Cavill is so bad he's like some random youtube actor that you see in those "Who would win, Superman or Darth Vader" short films. And it's so awkward how he delivers his whole "the bat is DEAD, consider this mercy" line and then slowly turns around, slowly takes a couple awkward steps (toward the edge of the Batmobile's hood??) *just* so that Batman has enough time to conveniently say the "do you bleed" line. You'd think that with Superman's "mercy" comment he'd want to put an exclamation point on that and just boom take off like a rocket but nope, he slowly meanders toward the edge of Bruce's car just so that Batman can get the last word in a contrived "whoa" moment. Yikes. Not looking good.

In fact, I could see come time this spring a ClownPrince that dislikes and criticizes BvS and a Khev that loves and defends it.

True, I could see that happening.