**Beware SPOILERS** Obi-Wan Kenobi Series on Disney+ **Beware SPOILERS**

[ebor]

Darth Bacta-Tanker

Bacta-Bacta Vader

 

[ZE_501]

Well I understand your point but the entire OT redemption arc is predicated on this moment and the undoing of the Empire because Anakin was allowed to die/live.

Back in the day I saw the 'redemption' as more personal, smaller. This was before the PT and all kinds of additional Force stuff, although admittedly I have almost no idea what happened within the EU material.

Lucas himself is an unreliable narrator because he has many times claimed to have had a grand plan all along when it's pretty apparent he did not, other than maybe a vague outline in his head.

Vader went from Tarkin's attack dog and almost a side-quest for Obi Wan, to suddenly being whom it was about "all along" by the PT era. Suspect at best.

Sure many millions suffered but it was a fraction of the terror a hundred years or more under the Sith could have been. Of course you could argue the Empire wasn’t that bad and Republic/New Republic was worse but that would derail Lucas’ plan and intention.

See above. I contend that Lucas had no real plan. And where was it written that without Vader turning on him Palpatine would remain untouchable? I mean that literally -- was that another retconned prophecy or something?

Let’s not go through the theological and moral gymnastics of ROTJ then.

LOL well that's a given.

That’s precisely what Luke did. He let the force decide because he forfeited his lightsaber and took a gamble/had faith in his father’s redemption.

Was it?

He seemed very fatalistic on board DSII. The idea seemed to be that he was there to buy time for his friends as he thought Vader on Endor (due to his presence) would catastrophically endanger their mission.

If anything I read it as Luke emulating Obi Wan's sacrifice, not 'letting the Force decide'.

While it's true that viewers will interpret a piece of cinema and fill some things in for themselves, there's a threshold beyond which I don't excuse the narrative. There are conventions to storytelling that are there for a reason. You don't need to spell everything out for audiences but you can't be completely opaque and leave it all to the fans, that's just lazy.

Star Wars fandom in general seems to be really good at making excuses for bad writing, of which there is plenty peppered throughout all of the films, even the beloved OT.

There are objectively bad movies that I really enjoy for various reasons, but I don't pretend they're good or project deeper meanings on to them, things I see this fanbase in general doing more than most.

 

[e30ernest]

Well...that's an interesting point of view that I don't personally agree with, but let's run with your take on it i.e. 'letting the Force decide': was it ultimately a good decision?

I always thought Obi Wan thought Anakin was good as dead so he left him to die, not thinking he will survive. My takeaway from that way back when I watched it was that he couldn't kill him himself, so he left him there to die by himself.

After the shooting in Texas the same week of the premiere of the show I’m sure Disney was crapping in their pants and I honestly wouldn’t be shocked if it was revealed that they trimmed that O66 scene down and I’m certain they will eventually get around to removing the now infamous youngling scene from ROTS especially since we are just right around the corner from the next school shooting it’s not if but when there are still a few weeks left in the school year.

God I’m cynical af

I sure hope that isn't the case. Too many kids die to gun violence in your country now (heck it is now the leading cause of death of kids in the USA, ahead of car crashes).

That said, I do not see the O66 scene (nor the Stranger Things scene) as "ill timed". That those scenes were a bit too real today because they depicted something that happened very recently is not the fault of those films, rather it's the fault of people in the real world that these things are happening anyway.

 

[LoveMinusZero]

Well I understand your point but the entire OT redemption arc is predicated on this moment and the undoing of the Empire because Anakin was allowed to die/live. Sure many millions suffered but it was a fraction of the terror a hundred years or more under the Sith could have been. Of course you could argue the Empire wasn’t that bad and Republic/New Republic was worse but that would derail Lucas’ plan and intention.

Let’s not go through the theological and moral gymnastics of ROTJ then. That’s precisely what Luke did. He let the force decide because he forfeited his lightsaber and took a gamble/had faith in his father’s redemption. It also valued spectacle and action sequences and twists over logical story writing and internal consistency. I can see why Empire is the favorite of most Star Wars fans despite changing some dynamics of course. While it started to retcon some things regarding Obi-wan it at least was smart about eloborating/extrapolating and continuing ideas set up in the original.

Luke is not letting the Force decide anything in ROTJ. He made a choice. He took a stand and chose to no longer play a part in Palpatine's little game of fighting for his favour. He chose to stop the entire thing, which is why Palpatine became so angry. And in making that choice, he forced Anakin to also have to choose, watch his son die or continue to be a slave of the Emperor. No one left anything to the Force. All three men made choices that determined the result of that conflict.

 

[ZE_501]

I always thought Obi Wan thought Anakin was good as dead so he left him to die, not thinking he will survive. My takeaway from that way back when I watched it was that he couldn't kill him himself, so he left him there to die by himself.

But if you look at the character of Obi Wan it doesn't make a ton of sense because he shirked his duty to Yoda and the Jedi, shied away from taking a life (which as a Jedi Knight he has no problem doing for the greater good), and let a fallen combatant (and loved one) suffer horribly longer than he needed to.

Duty, mission, compassion and warrior ethos all out the window with no warning. I think it's more logical that in that moment he would relent and try to save Anakin, or just finish him.

Everything that composed Obi Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master and Wartime General, was ignored by the script in that moment. Did he even report to Yoda? Conveniently enough we didn't see it (unless I'm misremembering).

I've cited my reasons multiple times in this thread now so I'll just let it go from this point onwards.

 

[jye4ever]

"You will never find a more wretched combo of crunch and taste. We must chew cautiously."

OT Ben + desert-sushi, interplanetary cellphone, Jawa roommate, Cheerios commercial Leia, T-rex Fett, Darth Sista = wtf

Wait what was the T-Rex Fett I missed that one!

 

[LoveMinusZero]

But if you look at the character of Obi Wan it doesn't make a ton of sense because he shirked his duty to Yoda and the Jedi, shied away from taking a life (which as a Jedi Knight he has no problem doing for the greater good), and let a fallen combatant (and loved one) suffer horribly longer than he needed to.

Duty, mission, compassion and warrior ethos all out the window with no warning. I think it's more logical that in that moment he would relent and try to save Anakin, or just finish him.

Everything that composed Obi Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master and Wartime General, was ignored by the script in that moment. Did he even report to Yoda? Conveniently enough we didn't see it (unless I'm misremembering).

I've cited my reasons multiple times in this thread now so I'll just let it go from this point onwards.

I agree with you on this about Obi-Wan and the end of ROTS.

I don't know if this is the place for it, or if anyone minds it here, but I'd be interested in how you would have changed that sequence. Knowing that however it ends, Anakin must be left alive in order for the OT to happen, how do you end that combat?

 

[ZE_501]

I agree with you on this about Obi-Wan and the end of ROTS.

I don't know if this is the place for it, or if anyone minds it here, but I'd be interested in how you would have changed that sequence. Knowing that however it ends, Anakin must be left alive in order for the OT to happen, how do you end that combat?

Someone else already did that for us -- earlier in the thread. Explosion, impenetrable wall of lava, flames etc. forcing Obi Wan to retreat and having to presume Anakin dead. A little too convenient but it would have done the trick given the pulp origins of the films.

Alternatively Obi Wan could have wounded Anakin to the extent he did before being forced to retreat by a large Clone force arriving -- he was alone after all. There's no real issue with Obi Wan and Yoda being aware that not only are they beaten but that their failure is complete, with a badly wounded Anakin presumed rescued and in the Emperor's clutches.

 

[e30ernest]

But if you look at the character of Obi Wan it doesn't make a ton of sense because he shirked his duty to Yoda and the Jedi, shied away from taking a life (which as a Jedi Knight he has no problem doing for the greater good), and let a fallen combatant (and loved one) suffer horribly longer than he needed to.

Actually, that was exactly in character for Obi at that point.

Obi Wan was never a model Jedi IMO. Even in TPM, he always questioned his master. At the end of the first movie, he went against the council's wishes. And throughout the rest of the prequels, he was never a good master to Anakin. He was following a flawed ethos and all of that came crashing down at Mustafar.

He shirked that duty to the council when he trained Anakin. He shirked his duty to Qui Gon when he failed to be a master to Anakin because of his own reluctance to train Anakin. At that exact moment, it was his duty to kill Anakin, and he shirked that duty too.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I don't pretend they're good or project deeper meanings on to them, things I see this fanbase in general doing more than most.

There is a percentage of the fanbase that has accepted Star Wars as a cult. They even marry as Jedis (clearly not understanding their own source material). This behavior is also seen in Star Trek fandom and goes to a deeper issue humans have for mental addictions, including everything from genuine religions all the way to QAnon.

 

[ZE_501]

Actually, that was exactly in character for Obi at that point.

Obi Wan was never a model Jedi IMO.

Maybe. I mean ... none of them were model Jedi in the sense that Lucas padded his script with a lot of ideas lifted from Eastern philosophy without ever concretizing them in his onscreen narrative, other than as convenient words, some of which landed, others that didn't. His philosophy was all over the place but apologists point to the inconsistencies and say "SEE? The Jedi lost their way!"

Even in TPM, he always questioned his master.

I don't know that Jedi are supposed to silently and blindly follow their masters, though. It seemed like a series of teachable moments, no?

At the end of the first movie, he went against the council's wishes.

Yet they allowed it. They could have stopped him but chose not to so I'm not sure them saying "Hey that's a bad idea" was more than hand-waving or an escape clause for when things went wrong.

And throughout the rest of the prequels, he was never a good master to Anakin.

In what way?

He was following a flawed ethos and all of that came crashing down at Mustafar.

Well...his student *did* murder kids and turn evil under his nose so there's a case to be made ... LOL

He shirked that duty to the council when he trained Anakin.

But again, they let him do it.

He shirked his duty to Qui Gon when he failed to be a master to Anakin because of his own reluctance to train Anakin.

I feel that's a stretch. He took the kid on, he did what he could. Failed, but that's not dereliction of duty.

At that exact moment, it was his duty to kill Anakin, and he shirked that duty too.

That he did.

 

[The Buffinator]

What bothered me more about the giant land whale thing in the middle of the desert, was that, when the shift was over, they just walk away and leave all the raw meat on the belt and go home like the Flintstones? Every time it happened I'm like WTF.

That’s the standard prep for Dune Sea Whale Jerky, found in spaceport refueling stations throughout the quadrant.

 

[LoveMinusZero]

That’s the standard prep for Dune Sea Whale Jerky, found in spaceport refueling stations throughout the quadrant.

The sand flea eggs are free!

 

[Khev]

Obi Wan was never a model Jedi IMO. Even in TPM, he always questioned his master. At the end of the first movie, he went against the council's wishes.

Technically the Council approved his request to train Anakin. It was only Yoda who disagreed.

"Agree with you the Council does. Your apprentice Skywalker will be."

 

[Khev]

Wait what was the T-Rex Fett I missed that one!

The bounty hunter that was shooting at Kenobi on the rooftops.

 

[LoveMinusZero]

Maybe. I mean ... none of them were model Jedi in the sense that Lucas padded his script with a lot of ideas lifted from Eastern philosophy without ever concretizing them in his onscreen narrative, other than as convenient words, some of which landed, others that didn't. His philosophy was all over the place but apologists point to the inconsistencies and say "SEE? The Jedi lost their way!"


I don't know that Jedi are supposed to silently and blindly follow their masters, though. It seemed like a series of teachable moments, no?

Yet they allowed it. They could have stopped him but chose not to so I'm not sure them saying "Hey that's a bad idea" was more than hand-waving or an escape clause for when things went wrong.

In what way?

Well...his student *did* murder kids and turn evil under his nose so there's a case to be made ... LOL

But again, they let him do it.

I feel that's a stretch. He took the kid on, he did what he could. Failed, but that's not dereliction of duty.

That he did.

The real problem I've always had with PT Obi-Wan, isn't so much the inexplicable or inconsistent decisions he makes, but the fact he's such a hollow, joyless, unlikeable character. So much so, that I have no idea why so many people have been so excited for his return for this series.

I watched the show, out of curiosity, and being a Star Wars fan, a glutton for punishment, but I have no real hope his character will be redeemed into something engaging. I'd love it if they could, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[e30ernest]

Maybe. I mean ... none of them were model Jedi in the sense that Lucas padded his script with a lot of ideas lifted from Eastern philosophy without ever concretizing them in his onscreen narrative, other than as convenient words, some of which landed, others that didn't. His philosophy was all over the place but apologists point to the inconsistencies and say "SEE? The Jedi lost their way!"

I don't see myself as an apologist (I hope I am not), but I do think in some ways, this was a deliberate choice. He needed to give a reason for Anakin to fall, and he needed to give a reason for the emperor to win. If it wasn't deliberate from George during the PT films, it was definitely a deliberate choice by the time the animated series came about. I've only started watching The Clone Wars series and it was really apparent there.

I don't know that Jedi are supposed to silently and blindly follow their masters, though. It seemed like a series of teachable moments, no?

If I remember right, Qui Gon was regarded as unorthodox in his beliefs on the Force and Obi Wan was assigned to him because Obi Wan also had a rebellious nature. That and also Kenobi's belief in the order might also pull Qui Gon back closer to it (he rejected an offer to be part of the council if I remember correctly).

Yet they allowed it. They could have stopped him but chose not to so I'm not sure them saying "Hey that's a bad idea" was more than hand-waving or an escape clause for when things went wrong.

I believe they allowed it because Kenobi was going to train Anakin either way (even if it meant leaving the Jedi Order). Better to allow the training under their control than to have the boy be trained outside their oversight.

In what way?

He never acknowledged Anakin in a positive way. I understand how being critical can help push Anakin, but I think Kenobi's hard belief that Anakin was "the chosen one" (he was pretty zealous in his belief in the Jedi and their prophesies) maybe pushed Anakin too much.

I don't think he really showed much faith in Anakin. When Anakin told him of his dreams about his mother, Obi Wan dismissed them for example. I think this gap in their relationship as Master and Apprentice gave an opening for Palpatine to corrupt Anakin.

He was very detached with his treatment of Anakin. Sure towards the end they were "like brothers", but I think Anakin needed something more than that. I can't remember if Obi Wan knew of Anakin's relationship with Padme (or if he knew they got married). Whether he did or not, was another failure from Obi Wan. If he didn't know, why didn't he? If he did, why did he allow it?

I think this shows in this series, and rightfully so. I think Obi knew he failed Anakin, and Owen pointing this out to him hit him where it hurts. There is a lot of self-doubt with Obi at this point, and I hope this series covers how he overcomes this doubt so that he will be where he was when Darth Maul finally confronts him in that final duel.

 

[jye4ever]

Is Vader still “the learner” in this?

How the hell will the return of prime Hayden address this fiasco lol

 

[Khev]

Is Vader still “the learner” in this?

How the hell will the return of prime Hayden address this fiasco lol

Bail Organa's final lines of the series after Obi-Wan and Vader have several more extensive duels:

"I'm placing these redeemed Inquisitors in your care. Treat them well, clean them up, have the Sith Lord's mind wiped."

Hayden: "What?"

 

[LoveMinusZero]

Is Vader still “the learner” in this?

How the hell will the return of prime Hayden address this fiasco lol

I hate to be that guy, as I don't wish it to be, but I don't see it going well.