Captain America: Civil War (May 6, 2016)

[GasparZizou]

I think Paul Bettany completely nails Vision.

That's exactly how I imagine an IA to behave, starting to develop "feelings" is a nice nod to classic sci-fi tropes.

I see DiFabio compared him to Dr. Manhattan, I suppose there's a middle ground where the 2 characters coincide in terms of humanity's detachment but each character goes in the opposite direction, Dr. Manhattan gets farther away from humanity over time, while Vision moves closer to it, since he's an IA it's only natural his psyche is ever moving forward to more analog and less digital, if that makes any sense, his mind grows more complex, giving him the "ability" to get "distracted" by some tail. I suppose it's the equivalent of puppy love for an AI.

It's truly brilliant imo, I love IA stuff.

 

[chewblacca]

Does anyone else think that Wanda was taking the airport fight more seriously than others? When Natadha and Clint were fighting she noted that he was pulling his punches. They were fighting but they did not want to. And what happened to Natasha at the end of the movie? Tony says they're coming for her and she takes off. And I would love to see how Hank Pym deals with Scott after all of this.

 

[guy66657]

Does anyone else think that Wanda was taking the airport fight more seriously than others? When Natadha and Clint were fighting she noted that he was pulling his punches. They were fighting but they did not want to. And what happened to Natasha at the end of the movie? Tony says they're coming for her and she takes off. And I would love to see how Hank Pym deals with Scott after all of this.

I believe Nat is now on the run and since Marvel supposedly said they're committing to a Black Widow movie, it honestly might be about that. Maybe delving into her past more as well. Think it'd be cool if Clint popped up as well. I almost said Bucky but we all know where he is at the moment.

 

[karamazov80]

I think Barton was holding back because he was fighting Widow. Not that he was holding back in general against the other side.

 

[GasparZizou]

Yeah he had no problem dropping cars on Tony

 

[pturtle]

Why are so many saying that Zemo is a nothing villain, or that what he did was predicated on luck? After Black Widow put all of Hydra's secrets out for everyone to see he deciphers all of their secrets and learns about the Winter Soldier, who he was and his history. Reading that he used to be Bucky Barnes and the friend of Captain America Zemo knew that Cap would defend his friend who has killed many in the past. One of those kills were the Starks. So learning that the UN would be meeting to discuss the actions of the Avengers in Vienna, Zemo plants a bomb in a news van, puts on a mask and wig to look like Winter Soldier so security cameras get a picture of him. The bomb goes off, kills some and now everyone is looking for Bucky including Cap who wants to protect his friend. Then, when Bucky is captured Zemo knows he would claim that he is innocent. So Zemo kidnaps, kills the doctor that would examine him and sends an emp bomb to the power plant. As he talks to Bucky the bomb goes off knocking out power to the jail where he is. While the power is out he says the code words that triggers the inner killer. Under Zemos control Winter Soldier tells him what he did on a mission in 91, and about other soldiers like him and where they are. Cap comes after his friend, Zemo goes to Russia to Hydra's secret base. Once there Zemo finds what he needs then waits for cap, winter soldier and ironman to come after him. They do and when they come together he plays the video of that day in 91. This destroys the Avengers more than the Sokovia Accords and Zemo's job is done. He destroys the Avengers without throwing a punch.

Negligence is how Zemo can just kill a doctor and steal his ID and analyze Bucky like it was nothing. Even the Avengers couldn't move around so freely at that place.

Then the ending, you explained how it happened but not how would Zemo know that Iron Man was coming. Basically his final plan is predicated on Iron Man showing up at the end and he had the tape ready to show him what Bucky did to his parents. But how did he know Tony would be coming?

Worst part about the ending for me is, Iron Man shows up there to help Cap and Bucky after finding out Cap was right about Bucky, and once he sees a video of Bucky killing his parent under indoctrination he still wants to kill Bucky. That literally makes no sense and yes, I get Tony was acting out of rage, but that rage is still directed at the wrong person and even he should know that, he literally turned his back on the government to go help Cap and Bucky. I find it funny too that Cap would make Tony even more upset at that moment by admitting he knew, why not lie and just tell him once everything is settled?

Oh and of course Black Panther secretly snuck there too, and has a sudden change of heart once his fathers real killer was standing right in front of because he sees Stark get upset. That to me is not a great ending at all, and the villains plan is **** in my opinion, he wasn't needed at all.

 

[DiFabio]

Man, when you break it down that way . . .

 

[SoGS]

Funny how CW has to be broken down into a bad movie and BvS has to be broken down into a good movie.

 

[GasparZizou]

I'm not sure Zemo's plan was for all 3 of them to be there at that very moment. That was just a good opportunity, and Zemo seized it.

Zemo's plan was only to create bad blood between Cap and Tony by showing Tony the video, to destabilize the Avengers "empire", which he could've done at any time, not to have all 3 of them at that very moment, that was just good luck, Zemo just seized the opportunity to create an even bigger impact, but it's not like his plan depended on all 3 of them to be there.

And Tony's reaction was perfectly understandable imo, no matter how smart and cool Tony is, seeing that **** would make almost anyone lose their ****.

 

[GasparZizou]

Funny how CW has to be broken down into a bad movie and BvS has to be broken down into a good movie.

Actually, BvS had to be broken down into a bad movie too, with pretty nonsensical and non-sequitur nitpicks made up to appear as criticism, I've never seen such incoherent criticisms in my life.

I applied the same "technique" to CW and trust me, it's the same result.

 

[pturtle]

Well I said Zemo's final plan, which might have been luck but him having the footage ready to be played leads me to believe he could predict the future either way I think that Zemo's involvement really hurt the narrative, Like I said before, they could have just used Hulk as the catalyst to provoke the government into making the registration act, and then the rest of the movie could have been about a battle of ideologies which wasn't in the movie nearly enough as I thought it would be and probably should have been considering the title of the movie.

I see a lot of people saying that about Tony's reaction was justified but I just found it to be bad forced writing. He knows Bucky wasn't in control, Hydra was, how can he be upset at Bucky when Tony literally flew there ignoring orders to help them for that very reason?




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[GasparZizou]

Well I said Zemo's final plan, which might have been luck but him having the footage ready to be played leads me to believe he could predict the future either way I think that Zemo's involvement really hurt the narrative, Like I said before, they could have just used Hulk as the catalyst to provoke the government into making the registration act, and then the rest of the movie could have been about a battle of ideologies which wasn't in the movie nearly enough as I thought it would be and probably should have been considering the name of the movie.

I see a lot of people saying that about Tony's reaction was justified but I just found it to be bad forced writing. He knows Bucky wasn't in control, Hydra was, how can he be upset at Bucky when Tony literally flew there ignoring orders to help them for that very reason?

How hard can it be to just relay a video he was probably already carrying to another terminal? The dude's an elite soldier and speaks like 30 languages.

Yeah they could've used the Hulk, which IIRC it's one of the videos in the Secretary's meeting, but it was a better choice to have a more recent event, the "last drop" by having SW make such a mistake with the bomb, it felt recent, like we say in Spanish "en carne viva", in living flesh, sort of like a fresh wound.

Sure he knows Bucky wasn't in control, but still, you're seeing your parents being killed in front of you, and the killer is right next to you, you're gonna want to blow off some steam to say the least... Plus he was showing some restraint, it looked more like he was trying to take him in rather than kill him, remember him shooting at the silo gate when he had a shot at Bucky?

Sure it wasn't Bucky's fault, but that doesn't instantly exonerate him of all guilt, there needs to be a process (narrative-wise of course), even Bucky himself said it. "Yeah but I did it".

 

[gagaliya]

This movie is just awesome!

I loved the new spider man and black panther. And everything about it.

It doesn't feel forced to move from scenes to scenes just for the sake of showing the action with silly dialog/bad script like in age of ultron or ironman 3.

Winter soldier was one of my all time favorite marvel movies, and this topped it. Looks like the same director bros will also be doing the 2 parts avenger movies which is awesome, can expect the same quality!

 

[pturtle]

How hard can it be to just relay a video he was probably already carrying to another terminal? The dude an elite soldier and speaks like 30 languages.

Yeah they could've used the Hulk, which IIRC it's one of the videos in the Secretary's meeting, but it was a better choice to have a more recent event, the "last drop" by having SW make such a mistake with the bomb, it felt recent, like we say in Spanish "en carne viva", in living flesh, sort of like a fresh wound.

Sure he knows Bucky wasn't in control, but still, you're seeing your parents being killed in front of you, and the killer is right next to you, you're gonna want to blow off some steam to say the least... Plus he was showing some restraint, it looked more like he was trying to take him in rather than kill him, remember him shooting at the silo gate when he had a shot at Bucky?

That's the good luck and convenience part I'm talking about, it's not hard for him to do but of course all the pieces and players were in place and there is no way he could have predicted that.

That makes even less sense if Tony wasn't trying to kill him though, bring him in for what? The crimes he now knows Bucky had no choice in?

 

[GasparZizou]

That's the good luck and convenience part in talking about, it's not hard for him to do by of course all the pieces and players were set in place and there is no way he could have predicted that.

That makes even less sense of Tony wasn't trying to kill him though, bring him in for what? The crimes he now knows Bucky had no choice in?

Again, his plan did not at all depend on all 3 of them being there imo, he was presented with a better scenario, of course he's gonna take it, sure it makes for a more impactful ending, it's a movie after all, and movies need that pinch of providence, but that doesn't not = lazy or force writing imo.

Bring him in for accountability, that's the whole point of the Sokovia accords.

 

[GasparZizou]

Maybe I'm not getting your point P, what is it that you call convenient specifically? That he's a formidable and capable villain? Or that the final scene is too well set up?

 

[pturtle]

Again, his plan did not at all depend on all 3 of them being there imo, he was presented with a better scenario, of course he's gonna take it, sure it makes for a more impactful ending, it's a movie after all, and movies need that pinch of providence, but that doesn't not = lazy or force writing imo.

Bring him in for accountability, that's the whole point of the Sokovia accords.

But without that final part, the Avengers most likely wouldn't have been torn apart at the end. Tony realizes Cap was right about Bucky the entire time, without that footage Tony and Cap would have been fine at the end. Without Zemo the Avengers could have been divided based solely on the registration act, but instead they threw Zemo in to amplify that and it hurt the narrative in my opinion. Same thing with Spiderman, there was no reason for him to be in the movie, and Tony pretty much blackmailed him to join, then he's removed from the movie as quickly as he came because Tony was going to tell his aunt. Why didn't Tony want Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, And Daredevil on his team too? Plus they're were grown adults.

But unlike The Avengers, Bucky had no choice, he wasn't acting of free will and Tony knew that, so bringing him in just doesn't make sense to me. Getting him help does.


Edit: what I'm trying to say is that I know the footage wasn't his grand plan, but without I think everything would have been salvaged once Tony realized Cap was right about Bucky. The Footage was the nail in the coffin basically.

 

[GasparZizou]

But without that final part, the Avengers most likely wouldn't have been torn apart at the end. Tony realizes Cap was right about Bucky the entire time, without that footage Tony and Cap would have been fine at the end. Without Zemo the Avengers could have been divided based solely on the registration act, but instead they threw Zemo in to amplify that and it hurt the narrative in my opinion. Same thing with Spiderman, there was no reason for him to be in the movie, and Tony pretty much blackmailed him to join, then he's removed from the movie as quickly as he came because Tony was going to tell his aunt. Why didn't Tony want Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, And Daredevil on his team too? Plus they're were grown adults.

But unlike The Avengers, Bucky had no choice, he wasn't acting of free will and Tony knew that, so bringing him in just doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah I give you Spiderman, it was fan service, period, and it was pretty dumb considering the mourning mom thing.

But regarding Zemo, again, Zemo did not need to have all 3 of them to be there to show Tony the video, that was just a better opportunity.

Zemo just needed Tony to see the video, which he could've done at ANY time without Cap or Bucky being there, to create bad blood between him and Cap, to destabilize the empire, his plan did not depend on Cap and Bucky being there.

If you ask me, it was 10x better than Loki's plan.

As for the TV-verse, I read that it's just hard for the MCU and the TV verse to sync because they're both a different rhythms.

Is the fact that Tony just saw his parents being murdered, again, his parents being murdered, and not in a painless way at all, really so trivial to you?

Edit: what I'm trying to say is that I know the footage wasn't his grand plan, but without I think everything would have been salvaged once Tony realized Cap was right about Bucky. The Footage was the nail in the coffin basically.

No no, the footage NEEDS to be there, it is a pivotal part of the plan, but he only needs Tony to see it. That's it.

To plant the seed, nothing more.

 

[pturtle]

Yeah I give you Spiderman, it was fan service, period, and it was pretty dumb considering the mourning mom thing.

But regarding Zemo, again, Zemo did not need to have all 3 of them to be there to show Tony the video, that was just a better opportunity.

Zemo just needed Tony to see the video, which he could've done at ANY time without Cap or Bucky being there, to create bad blood between him and Cap, to destabilize the empire, his plan did not depend on Cap and Bucky being there.

If you ask me, it was 10x better than Loki's plan.

As for the TV-verse, I read that it's just hard for the MCU and the TV verse to sync because they're both a different rhythms.

Is the fact that Tony just saw his parents being murdered, again, his parents being murdered, and not in a painless way at all, really so trivial to you?


No no, the footage NEEDS to be there, it is a pivotal part of the plan, but he only needs Tony to see it. That's it.

To plant the seed, nothing more.

I understand all three of them didn't need to be there, but it's the fact that he seemed to know Tony was coming and had everything pretty much set. The "emotional" ending is all tied to Zemo showing that footage. If not for that, it seemed Cap and Tony would have been fine, Tony seemed like he wasn't too happy working for the government after seeing how his peers were being held.

Yea, I know the Netflix characters couldn't join, was just trying to show that it literally made no sense to add Spidey in the movie.

I love my parents, but when I put my self in Stark's shoes, I still don't think I could have been madd at Bucky, he was a tool and a victim and Tony knows this which is the very reason why he was there. If he hadn't known then I would totally understand.

 

[GasparZizou]

I understand all three of them didn't need to be there, but it's the fact that he seemed to know Tony was coming and had everything pretty much set.

But, it's not really having "everything set".

He was probably carrying the video, having just acquired it, and I mean, if you're in windows you can tap windows+P on you keyboard to patch the projector when you're gonna do a presentation right? It's not really that hard to show a video on another monitor.

The "emotional" ending is all tied to Zemo showing that footage.

Sure, because it's a movie, and movie can have these coincidental circumstances for added dramatism, it's the pinch of providence I've been talking about, there's nothing wrong with that.

I for one I'm happy this MCU movie made me feel ANYTHING, for the first time ever.

I rolled my eyes sooooo hard at Quipsilver's death.

If not for that, it seemed Cap and Tony would have been fine,

Man, why do you make me repeat myself? he could've shown Tony the video at ANY time, the bad blood is inevitable after Zemo got his hands on the video.

Tony seemed like he wasn't too happy working for the government after seeing how his peers were being held.

This is true, but it would also be the case regardless of his relationship with Cap.

Yea, I know the Netflix characters couldn't join, was just trying to show that it literally made no sense to add Spidey in the movie.

Yup.

I love my parents, but when I put my self in Stark's shoes, I still don't think I could have been madd at Bucky, he was a tool and a victim and Tony knows this which is the very reason why he was there. If he hadn't known then I would totally understand.

I don't know man, I don't think you can put on Tony's shoes for real, I pity those who can, I can only image what it would be and I think his reaction is pretty natural.