EVILFACE
Insufferable S.O.B.
DarkArtist is a good guy that took on too much too soon and world caved in on him.
Custom Release Etiquette Discussion
- Thread starter karamazov80
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Yeah, and I usually don't question the intentions of these guys. But bad things can happen, and sometimes I think rules need to be in place to protect the board from those things. When someone systematically takes on projects that they can't afford to produce on their own ahead of time, and/or uses funds upfront for these projects to fund other projects, and when these projects take many months to complete, you're asking for trouble. Risk should shift toward those in charge of getting the projects done, and away from customers.
I thought I saw a thread a while back of DA trying to make things right. Sort of like a check off list of things he owed.
He did try to come back a couple of times and make right, but it seemed to be just too much for him. He was burned out, and seemed to lose the will to do it. He never finished a huge bulk of the projects he had going on.
drdandalek
Super Freak
These are customs done usually by artists and fans for the most part in their spare time. They have a primary job and do this on the side. The only full time companies that I know of are iminime and rainman. It's nice to say I want this within 30 days, 45 days, etc. Sometimes that's not always possible because of things that arise. I have been waiting on sculpts to get painted for 4 months now. I understand that if I want it done I have to wait. I'm fine with that. If we want to do custom figures, we shouldn't expect these artists to have operating capital like a business. Again. There are only 2 actual businesses I've seen on here and with one Ong them, nobody complains about putting out $450-850. Maybe some artist can get on here and tell us how much it costs for casting, printing, etc. One of the things I've laughed about with some of the companies justifying why they charge ludicrous prices is RESEARCH and development. The research is you look at pictures on line. The development., unless you cast and print your own, would be the only cost involved. The material cost of outfits won't cost any more than $25. That's in the US. Not in Korea or other countries where the materials are much cheaper. These companies are charging an unbelievable price for what they sell and people snatch it up. I've even seen on threads when people don't like stuff about the sculpts they have sent emails saying how they respect their art, they don't want to complain, etc kissing their tails. Whereas, the artists in the US take a pounding from people when something is not to their liking. Really? This is a board with people from a lot of different countries and to treat one countries citizens one way but another country another? That's bull. What it comes down to as this is the main idea, is if you want to buy it. Buy it. If there are delays live with it. These are customs. If you don't like the way artists handle time frames, don't buy from them or live with the time frames. Like I said, it's fans making art for fans except those 2 companies. When you make the equivalent of $120,000 per figure release, it's a business.
Iminime or Rainman aren't making nearly that much per release.
youbastards
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I paid WGP in full for four Indiana Jones heads ($300) last July, and I still haven't received my correct order from them. One of the heads I did receive was damaged, and it took another month to get a replacement, but that one did eventually come to me.
I'm still waiting on one head ($75) from them, that they claim was shipped to Silent Surfer at the end of April, but Igor has confirmed that it never arrived. At this point I've PM'd William Shatner's Toupee requesting my money back for this missing Indy head.
I think I'm done sending my money to people unless the product is in hand and ready to ship.
I'm still waiting on one head ($75) from them, that they claim was shipped to Silent Surfer at the end of April, but Igor has confirmed that it never arrived. At this point I've PM'd William Shatner's Toupee requesting my money back for this missing Indy head.
I think I'm done sending my money to people unless the product is in hand and ready to ship.
King Darkness
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I agree 100%. In a perfect world all customizers would operate in this window. Projects paid for and months, or years, go by is frustrating to say the least.
That turned into a mess for Dooley. Feel bad for him, but it seems like another Amok story.
Bottom line, no one is truly safe, even dealing with the most well established and respected custom guys out there. I only deal with a couple members who I trust implicitly, but even then when I send them my money there is always the chance I am kissing it goodbye, its just a chance we take.
In a perfect world a 45 day window from payment to received goods would happen, but we all know that is not goanna be the case.
galactiboy
OT Preferist
I think that's very true... with members like him and Les I truly believe that their were always good intentions. But at the end of the day those intentions led to a lot of lost money and time.
I completely agree with all of this... sending money to an artist for work is always risky. I mean hell, aside from someone freaking out or going rip-off artist, you can have housefires, sudden death or any number of f'd up situations that can lead to a loss.
I think artists need to be very mindful of how much work the can realistically do and customers should pay attention to threads and if there are a ton of "any updates dude?" posts you might want to hold off a bit on sending the project.
Being fairly new to making figures and also buying custom parts and figures as well, I would like to add some insight also.
As a buyer, it does suck to pay and wait, and wait, and wait with little to no updates other than "it'll be ready when it'll be ready." I've bought and paid in full for several things that have not shipped and with no message from the customizer on why or what happened.
On the flip side to that, I run into a lot of unforeseen delays when I make my customs. I purchased some boots, guns, hands and extra bits that were supposedly in stock, but it was backordered and didn't get shipped out until 3 weeks later from the retailer. That's almost a month gone. It's no one's fault and these things happen, so I try to update everyone about the situation.
When I make my customs, I try to scratchbuilt as many parts as I possibly can. That way if there are delays, it's not coming from my end. Bodies go out of stock, guns, etc. sell out so getting a deposit to cover things like that makes sense. A lot of people drop out of interest lists so making the customizer front something that is isn't guaranteed is not fair either.
I cover all of my sculpting, molds, resins, etc. in making the figure. The only thing I ask a deposit for is to cover parts that must be bought that I can't make. I think a 45-60 days maximum is ideal. I always aim for 30 days if I can and have been finding ways to get everything close to being ready before putting up the order info or taking deposits if possible.
As a buyer, it does suck to pay and wait, and wait, and wait with little to no updates other than "it'll be ready when it'll be ready." I've bought and paid in full for several things that have not shipped and with no message from the customizer on why or what happened.
On the flip side to that, I run into a lot of unforeseen delays when I make my customs. I purchased some boots, guns, hands and extra bits that were supposedly in stock, but it was backordered and didn't get shipped out until 3 weeks later from the retailer. That's almost a month gone. It's no one's fault and these things happen, so I try to update everyone about the situation.
When I make my customs, I try to scratchbuilt as many parts as I possibly can. That way if there are delays, it's not coming from my end. Bodies go out of stock, guns, etc. sell out so getting a deposit to cover things like that makes sense. A lot of people drop out of interest lists so making the customizer front something that is isn't guaranteed is not fair either.
I cover all of my sculpting, molds, resins, etc. in making the figure. The only thing I ask a deposit for is to cover parts that must be bought that I can't make. I think a 45-60 days maximum is ideal. I always aim for 30 days if I can and have been finding ways to get everything close to being ready before putting up the order info or taking deposits if possible.
Ironman1188
SO BE IT
Another thing I hate about pre-ordering, is you pre-order a sculpt, because its one you like/want to build a figure of and/or want to support the maker. Then, as has been said you wait and wait and wait.
I ordered from WGP too. Then when I finally got the "smirking" Kirk, he arrived neckless. Now, I do understand that one tries to appease everyone, but changing the way heads are cast because some want to use HT bodies , but you have a bulk of DML or the like isn't right, especially when money was taken up front. Same goes for changing the expression on a sculpt after accepting pre-order money. The idea of "you can get a refund if you're not satisfied" isn't right either. You pre-ordered early to get in on it, then things are changes for the johnny-come-latelys? Then afterwards to turn around and make the very version that was switched on you in the first place? Not cool in my book.
And, I do understand about an artist being paid for his/her work. What I can't understand is why casts of some sculpts are so, in my opinion, overpriced. Jim "eydylhands" Maddox made some fantastic sculpts and casts of them were available, on average, thru Lonnie at Hero Heads for $10 a piece. Not $55, not $65, not $75...
Bill "Poppo" Kern makes fantastic sculpts, and only recently raised his prices to $25 which I still consider reasonable. No up front payments and good quality casts.
And they are ready. Heads get sculpted, they get cast, orders get taken and then heads get shipped. Yes, that head may have taken 32 days to sculpt but that isn't part of the "selling time frame". Once its done and offered 30-45 days is more than enough time to offer, pay for, have shipped and receive the items, barring unforeseen circumstances.
I ordered from WGP too. Then when I finally got the "smirking" Kirk, he arrived neckless. Now, I do understand that one tries to appease everyone, but changing the way heads are cast because some want to use HT bodies , but you have a bulk of DML or the like isn't right, especially when money was taken up front. Same goes for changing the expression on a sculpt after accepting pre-order money. The idea of "you can get a refund if you're not satisfied" isn't right either. You pre-ordered early to get in on it, then things are changes for the johnny-come-latelys? Then afterwards to turn around and make the very version that was switched on you in the first place? Not cool in my book.
And, I do understand about an artist being paid for his/her work. What I can't understand is why casts of some sculpts are so, in my opinion, overpriced. Jim "eydylhands" Maddox made some fantastic sculpts and casts of them were available, on average, thru Lonnie at Hero Heads for $10 a piece. Not $55, not $65, not $75...
Bill "Poppo" Kern makes fantastic sculpts, and only recently raised his prices to $25 which I still consider reasonable. No up front payments and good quality casts.
And they are ready. Heads get sculpted, they get cast, orders get taken and then heads get shipped. Yes, that head may have taken 32 days to sculpt but that isn't part of the "selling time frame". Once its done and offered 30-45 days is more than enough time to offer, pay for, have shipped and receive the items, barring unforeseen circumstances.
MANDO
Super Freak
I hate "pay and wait". However for people that do commission work for a living or even partial income I can see where it's necessary vs. folks changing their minds. Materials cost. Obviously. But I think people tend to forget that when buying custom bits you're first and foremost paying for another person's time, and their free time at that.
Given past events I avoid pay and wait as much as possible and prefer to work in small batches depending on whats on my table. I find people seem to hate and appreciate that equally, but I don't like to have too much of other people's money on the table at one time. I aim for 30 days max. Doesn't always work out that way of course. Life intervenes. But thirty days gives you a good bit of leeway time to get it done and shipped.
Agreed.
Dark Artist and Les Walker were the gods of their time. Few will argue that. I think both ran into hard times while still being lured back by the siren that is creative ambition. In trying to dig themselves out they got buried deeper. I would agree with the sentiment that they got into it all with the best of intentions; however, I have friends who feel the opposite, but they have cash/parts on the line.
I merely look at it as an outsider, and former admirer, who ran into a similar situation years ago, and is only still crawling back out. But I have a handful of regulars who've made it all worthwhile, and I think that's important as well. I think people should follow someone's work because they dig it, and not because of what they can get out out of it.
What one person sells things for vs. what another person does is irrelevant. You're not in a Wal-Mart comparing fourteen brands of the same frozen peas. Everyone's situation is different. Is $75 a lot for a head sculpt? Not if only ten or so are being sold, and certainly not if its paying that months rent, etc. What people offer their talent and time for shouldn't be up for debate. You don't have to like it any more than you have to buy it. So if its not for you move along.
Given past events I avoid pay and wait as much as possible and prefer to work in small batches depending on whats on my table. I find people seem to hate and appreciate that equally, but I don't like to have too much of other people's money on the table at one time. I aim for 30 days max. Doesn't always work out that way of course. Life intervenes. But thirty days gives you a good bit of leeway time to get it done and shipped.
Agreed.
Dark Artist and Les Walker were the gods of their time. Few will argue that. I think both ran into hard times while still being lured back by the siren that is creative ambition. In trying to dig themselves out they got buried deeper. I would agree with the sentiment that they got into it all with the best of intentions; however, I have friends who feel the opposite, but they have cash/parts on the line.
I merely look at it as an outsider, and former admirer, who ran into a similar situation years ago, and is only still crawling back out. But I have a handful of regulars who've made it all worthwhile, and I think that's important as well. I think people should follow someone's work because they dig it, and not because of what they can get out out of it.
What one person sells things for vs. what another person does is irrelevant. You're not in a Wal-Mart comparing fourteen brands of the same frozen peas. Everyone's situation is different. Is $75 a lot for a head sculpt? Not if only ten or so are being sold, and certainly not if its paying that months rent, etc. What people offer their talent and time for shouldn't be up for debate. You don't have to like it any more than you have to buy it. So if its not for you move along.
Ironman1188
SO BE IT
Perhaps. However, (AGAIN, NOT SUPPORTING IT) but this is what opens the door for the recaster. Make a sculpt a bunch of folks want but then sell it at a high price and in a low quantity. Is it right? No, but one can see how it comes to be.
And, if that sculptor needs to pay that months rent, does that give him/her the right to gouge the buyer? Its not the buyer's fault. Am I buying frozen peas? No. But that sculptor is competing against other sculptors for the buyer's hard earned cash.
We live in a free market system. Artists can charge what they choose to. People will pay, or not pay, based on the product, price, reputation, and other factors. Of course, I would love to pay $20 for Grove, Rocco, and Rainman sculpts, but the artists choose to make them, to sell them, and how to sell them. There is no "gouging" here, because buyers feel the product and work that went into it is worth the cost. It isn't like we're talking about gas prices following a hurricane. These are components of high end collectibles that people are using disposable income to purchase.
When you're talking about competition, again, that's where the market comes in. If those guys were really charging too much, then they would not be getting appropriate sales levels and "the invisible hand" would force them to reduce costs. If everyone agreed that an artist's skill and time weren't worth more than $30, then these guys would either sell for that price, or not produce product at all. However, most do not agree with this sentiment. I'm thankful for that, because, to take an example, Rocco's stuff is fantastic, and if we weren't providing the proper incentive I doubt he would waste his time with it. If all this stuff is too expensive for one's taste, then there are always companies like Hasbro, Mattel, DC Direct, and NECA, which cater to collectors who may feel high end collectibles are out of their price range.
When you're talking about competition, again, that's where the market comes in. If those guys were really charging too much, then they would not be getting appropriate sales levels and "the invisible hand" would force them to reduce costs. If everyone agreed that an artist's skill and time weren't worth more than $30, then these guys would either sell for that price, or not produce product at all. However, most do not agree with this sentiment. I'm thankful for that, because, to take an example, Rocco's stuff is fantastic, and if we weren't providing the proper incentive I doubt he would waste his time with it. If all this stuff is too expensive for one's taste, then there are always companies like Hasbro, Mattel, DC Direct, and NECA, which cater to collectors who may feel high end collectibles are out of their price range.
annihilate22
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Trevor always sold his sculpts for $35 right ?
King Darkness
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Here we go, headed down the price road....
Stay on target......
Stay on target......
Ironman1188
SO BE IT
Of course its that same "limited quantity" "cost of product" invisible hand that then opens the door for the recaster to get his foot in. Again, NOT SUPPORTING IT, but certainly able to see how it could start.
I have many custom pieces, from Trevor, Andy, Barlow, Reggie, BillyB, Poppo and Eydylhands. I don't think any one worked harder on theirs than the next guy, each got compensated for their work and the prices varied between them by up to $45 or more.
If the "proper incentive" is to pay whatever price they come up with I hope you don't do your own car shopping.
uscmhicks
Super Freak
I would have agreed at one point but I purchased a full completed figure from Josh over four years ago now that needed no work at all , it just had to be sent. I don't believe for one minute he couldn't have posted that out.
Of course, the door will be open to "counterfeiters" when bums can offer illegitimate recasts for cheaper cost, in the same way that people do that with movies and music. That's a consideration the artists have to deal with and make the appropriate strategic decision.
But KD is right, this argument went on ad nauseum in another thread recently. Good luck with this, but there is no chance forum policy on this issue with change, or that custom artists will significantly change behavior on this issue considering the existing community of customers.
Sadly if, like you, I demanded that I only wanted to pay $5,000 for a new Lexus because I've seen other cars sell for that price, and I know they're jacking up the cost in the interest of profit, I doubt very seriously my negotiations would go very far.If the "proper incentive" is to pay whatever price they come up with I hope you don't do your own car shopping.
But KD is right, this argument went on ad nauseum in another thread recently. Good luck with this, but there is no chance forum policy on this issue with change, or that custom artists will significantly change behavior on this issue considering the existing community of customers.
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