DC RELAUNCHING entire Universe in September

[DiFabio]

Why would Joker take a bunch of naked pictures of her? Because he thought that would unhinge the Commissioner? Just naked pictures? I doubt it.

Not just naked pictures, naked pictures of his daughter, paralyzed with a bleeding bullet wound in her side. He was trying to make Gordon snap.

 

[thenammagazine]

Old enough to remember buying new comics for 50 cents.

Back when a dollar got you a candy bar and a bottle of Coke.

 

[karamazov80]

Comics never came out and said she was raped from what I recall, but I can understand some insinuating as much. Like fabio, I figure simply showing her naked and writhing around in pain would have been sufficient for Joker's purposes.

 

[devilof76]

Not just naked pictures, naked pictures of his daughter, paralyzed with a bleeding bullet wound in her side. He was trying to make Gordon snap.

I know, but naked, wounded and disabled is nothing compared to naked, wounded, disabled and used. Most of the rest is tolerable (I doubt the paralysis was evident in the pictures, and likely he didn't learn until after the ordeal was done) but if he really wanted him to lose it, rape would be essential. To go as far as shooting and stripping her, but not taking advantage of her is a lot more short-sighted than I give the Joker's psychosis credit for.

(And she's his niece. )

 

[DiFabio]

I know, but naked, wounded and disabled is nothing compared to naked, wounded, disabled and used. Most of the rest is tolerable (I doubt the paralysis was evident in the pictures, and likely he didn't learn until after the ordeal was done) but if he really wanted him to lose it, rape would be essential. To go as far as shooting and stripping her, but not taking advantage of her is a lot more short-sighted than I give the Joker's psychosis credit for.

While I've never seen rape alluded to in the comic (maybe I'm missing something), it does seem there are a good amount of people out there that figure the scene implies that Barbara was raped by either the Joker himself and/or his goons.

However, I always figured something happened to Gordon while he was caged and naked with those freak midget carnies.

 

[devilof76]

However, I always figured something happened to Gordon while he was caged and naked with those freak midget carnies.

Well...yeah.

What's left to the imagination is what makes a story like The Killing Joke as powerful as it is. Limiting the possibilities on account of what isn't shown turns a kick in the gut into a punch in the arm.

 

[DiFabio]

Oh just caught your niece bit. I don't really follow comics, I just have a general idea of what is going on and I'm familiar with some of the more well known comics that I've read (mostly one shots). So to me, Barbara is Gordon's biological daughter.

I know there's all that different canon and post crisis, pre crisis and earth ____ where Barbara could be anything from Gordon's niece to his son, but I don't follow that. Not sure what the modern interpretation is but, to me, Barbara is either the biological or adopted daughter of Gordon. Either way, still his daughter.

 

[thenammagazine]

Well...yeah.

What's left to the imagination is what makes a story like The Killing Joke as powerful as it is. Limiting the possibilities on account of what isn't shown turns a kick in the gut into a punch in the arm.

At least half of Moore's writing is about what isn't on the page, but implied. It's no surprise to those of us who grew up reading his works but it's understandable how a younger generation would miss that only being able to cherry pick his books. I think the guys a ********* personally, but he's a very talented writer and has some of THE most memorable stories in 4-color print.

 

[Thorne]

It amuses me that you'd think anyone in DC editorial - right up to the President, Jenette Kahn - in 1988 would have said "Okay, make sure they understand she was raped, too."

1988. DC Comics. Rape.

Like they say on Sesame Street: One of these things is not like the others.

Seriously. Some people's children...

 

[Kabukiman]

I think the guys a ********* personally...

 

[devilof76]

It amuses me that you'd think anyone in DC editorial - right up to the President, Jenette Kahn - in 1988 would have said "Okay, make sure they understand she was raped, too."

1988. DC Comics. Rape.

1986. 1987. DC Comics. Watchmen. Rape.

 

[Thorne]

1986. 1987. DC Comics. Watchmen. Rape.

Oh, and was it a major character from one of their most popular/top selling brands...??

Didn't think so.

Helps prove my previous point, though.

In Watchmen, it was never "implied". It was right there on the page.

Dr. Light raped Jean Loring. On. The. Page.

Comics are a visual medium....
If it didn't happen on the page, it didn't happen.

Could we have even a little common sense here?

To think that Jenette Kahn would allow a book to be released that even "implied" rape to a character with 21 years of history behind her (at the time) within the "Batman Family"... especially when the book doesn't carry a "Mature Readers Only" label...???

Really.

By the way, "rape is a big theme with Moore's work" and "most of his writing is implied" does not constitute "proof" like I was asking for.

There's two "on-the-page" examples up above.

Your turn.

If you truly believe she was raped, show me.
One panel. All I'm asking for.
'Killing Joke' has been referenced a gazillion times in the 23 years since Barbara was shot....
Find me one panel where a character (Batman? Barbara? Booster Gold??) uses the words "Barbara Gordon" and "rape" in the same sentence.

Show me.
(Won't hold my breath, though.)

I repeat: If it didn't happen on the page, it didn't happen.

 

[devilof76]

Ok. You can pound your 'on the page' drum all you want. If you insist it has to be on the page, I'm sure it must be so. We'll ignore the other arguments made in favor of it, including the ones regarding the pointlessness of nude pics as an effective psychological assault.

We can also ignore your own insistence that DC would never allow the explicit (or strongly implied) depiction of the rape of one of their longstanding characters. We'll ignore that Jean Loring's rape was almost 20 years later, under different management, and we'll ignore that if someone wanted to, they could pretend Silk Spectre I was not raped by Comedian. It's not like it was on the page (just a "Noo..." And a groan). We'll just assume that anyone with the imagination and rational faculty sufficiently competent to read into Moore's plot was raised by morally deficient parents.

 

[Kabukiman]

 

[devilof76]

So he did adopt her.

EDIT: nope. I'm completely wrong. She is his biological daughter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Gordon

I'd love to know where the hell I came up with the niece thing.

 

[devilof76]

And to officially put the rape question to rest...

Gail Simone08-07-2005, 05:17 PM
No.

There's no question that Alan Moore (in one of his worst stories ever--I love the guy, but the hatred of women in Killing Joke is palpable) meant to imply a rape-like scenario. It's rape without the sex, in other words.

Love Alan Moore. He's a genius. But this book is exploitive and cruel and is the very definition of a Woman in Refrigerator scenario; the long-running female character in question, Babs, is put through the grinder in the most vouyeristic and (ostensibly) tittilating fashion possible, and is then pretty much forgotten by all involved. She's not the story, the outrage of Batman and Gordon is ten times as important as the act itself. The whole story of the editor (which he's confirmed) yelling gleefully down the hallway, "Cripple the _____!" shows the level of thinking on the whole effect.

It's not that bad things shouldn't happen to female characters, it's that they shouldn't be done so thoughtlessly and in such a manner as to give underdeveloped pre-teen-esque doofuses little boners. Plus, it could not be MORE clear that Babs isn't really the least bit important, she's only abused because some people might have had some fondness for her, making the shock value worthwhile.



Thank god for John Ostrander, who saw what a terrible waste of a great character the book was, and did something about it. I have never met J.O., but he's one of the very few comic creators who would no doubt make me stutter like a gibbering idiot, because I think that highly of him.

Best,

Gail

I guess there are statements by Moore that he intended for her to be raped initially, but abandoned the idea.

So I'm wrong again.

But Thorne is still a ____head for impugning the parents of those who believed otherwise. It was hardly beyond the realm of possibility that the Joker would go so far, and to be so presumptuous as to insult our upbringing is far more specious of a logical leap.

 

[thenammagazine]

It amuses me that you'd think anyone in DC editorial - right up to the President, Jenette Kahn - in 1988 would have said "Okay, make sure they understand she was raped, too."

1988. DC Comics. Rape.

Like they say on Sesame Street: One of these things is not like the others.

Seriously. Some people's children...

So what's it look like the Joker's doing, Thorne?

It amuses me how newbs pop in and suddenly know everything. Moreso than the people who actually were there. Seriously, some people's children.

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

By the way, "rape is a big theme with Moore's work" and "most of his writing is implied" does not constitute "proof" like I was asking for.

There's two "on-the-page" examples up above.

Your turn.

If you truly believe she was raped, show me.
One panel. All I'm asking for.
'Killing Joke' has been referenced a gazillion times in the 23 years since Barbara was shot....
Find me one panel where a character (Batman? Barbara? Booster Gold??) uses the words "Barbara Gordon" and "rape" in the same sentence.

Show me.
(Won't hold my breath, though.)

I repeat: If it didn't happen on the page, it didn't happen.

pwned!

 

[Boba Ben]

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

that's prob from a later printing