Doctor Who - Spoilers!

[Blackhole]

OH GOD...the new TARDIS is horrible...they tried combining old and new and it didn't work...

Stick with the new TARDIS...

 

[pixletwin]

I agree - as long as he's equally opposed to heterosexual flirtation at the same volume.

Why? ............

 

[ProgMatinee]

I understand what you mean prog. You don't like every word out of the Jack's mouth to be some quip about his sexuality. Yeah?

Exactly. I recently watched the episode in season 2 of Torchwood with the old guy (from Ugly Betty as a matter of fact) testing some bug thing on different aliens, and I can't remember exactly what was said but the result was Jack tells the old guy "and my exboyfriend was the same way" or something to that effect. Based on the reaction shot of the old guy it was meant to be an "edgy" comment but it was so out of place and unnecessary.

Maybe it was there to tell anyone that happened to be watching Torchwood for the first time that Jack was gay? I don't know but it seemed like a little throw in.

 

[ProgMatinee]

I'm not sure. I guess its something to think over, but I don't think I have to equally enjoy or equally hate seeing homosexuality and heterosexuality on tv to make me exempt from the label "bigot". I mean, I am heterosexual after all and people usually enjoy things they relate to more than things they don't. Thats not being a bigot. I wouldn't label a gay person who prefers the LOGO channel to FOX News a bigot. Its just preference.

To answer your question, I don't mind there being a gay character, I just question whether we need to be reminded all the time as if "gay" is the defining characteristic. I mean, I don't think most straight characters remind everyone that they're straight all the time?

I'm not gay, so maybe I have no place in this, but personally I think gays should be outraged at the way they are portrayed (usually by gay people no less) on tv. They are either a flaming queen like on Will and Grace or always as some wild carefree and sexually liberated flirt whose only dimension is sex sex sex and thus they become labeled "the gay one". Why can't "gay" be like the 5th or 10th most important attribute to a character instead of the 1st?

 

[barbelith]

Why? ............

That's what bigotry is.

I can't remember exactly what was said but the result was Jack tells the old guy "and my exboyfriend was the same way" or something to that effect.

What do you make of Sky casually referencing an ex-girlfriend in Midnight?

Maybe it was there to tell anyone that happened to be watching Torchwood for the first time that Jack was gay?

Jack isn't gay.

 

[pixletwin]

The thing about Jack though is I don't think he is overtly gay in DW. I think he is very flirtatious. I think they play it up in the show that he is equally attracted to men as he is to women as he is to a fish faced alien. And that IS very Jack.

And no Barbe, that doesn't make Prog a bigot. Just because he doesn't agree with you, that makes him opinionated. But not a bigot.

 

[ProgMatinee]

Yeah I'm confused. I guess I can use a Websters Dictionary, but I don't think having a preference of something over the other is bigotry. If so then everyone is a bigot in some sense because we aren't all sitting around in a giant orgy having sex with each other.

 

[barbelith]

I guess its something to think over, but I don't think I have to equally enjoy or equally hate seeing homosexuality and heterosexuality on tv to make me exempt from the label "bigot".

I agree. We all have our prejudices; the dividing line is whether we chalk those up to ourselves or whether we try to impose them on other people. Being uncomfortable with black kids going to your white kids' school for the first time is not exactly the same thing as wishing they weren't allowed to attend - or worse, actively trying to do something about it.

To answer your question, I don't mind there being a gay character, I just question whether we need to be reminded all the time as if "gay" is the defining characteristic. I mean, I don't think most straight characters remind everyone that they're straight all the time?

This is where is gets much more complicated. Sociologists call this the invisibility of whiteness. Straight characters do in fact "remind everyone that they're straight all the time." We see this in flirtations and kisses and handholding and relationships. The problem is straight people don't actually notice that ... but they do notice incidental characters like Sky or the more obvious ones like Captain Jack (and to be fair, he's hard to miss).

For example, a single word by Sky in Midnight got the forums heated after broadcast; nobody said anything about there being an overtly heterosexual couple on the bus in Planet of the Dead. We've never seen a gay character on Doctor Who have a sustained storyline like Jackie and Pete enjoyed across the first two seasons; from the way people talk, you'd think this was Queer as Folk in space. Now to be fair we do have Jack and Ianto in a relationship over on Torchwood, but look how apoplectic some fans have gotten about that and that's on a show for adults.

I think the gay characters in Doctor Who stand out because most television is so homophobic gay characters are usually relegated to one supporting role per show, and that's usually a minstrel stereotype. I literally can't think of a single other show that's shown old lesbians. Ever. But they exist, and they deserve to be seen on TV alongside straight couples and Asians and Hispanics and everyone else who walks the planet.

So if anything, there's been an agenda to show all types of people. I think that's a positive thing, albeit one that stands out because TV is so relentlessly conservative in its representation of people who aren't straight and white. If RTD had had a real gay agenda, the show would be drastically different than one that's exclusively featured heterosexual relationships among the leads. As with our dear BCM in a completely different context, a lot of what's on screen is really just baggage being brought by the viewers.

 

[barbelith]

Yeah I'm confused. I guess I can use a Websters Dictionary, but I don't think having a preference of something over the other is bigotry.

I think it's bigoted to actively complain about one but not the other. Let's put it that way.

 

[ProgMatinee]

I totally understand the unconscious prejudice. Personally I tried to compensate for that in my complaint about DW. I think the mixed relations sticks out more than the gay agenda in this respect so I will use that as an example, the occurance in DW is really far beyond the regular percentage rates of real life. I would argue thats its possibly between 25-50% of DW relationships were mixed. And please understand I have no problems with mixed relationships either, my complaint is that its too apparent that DW writers or casting were aiming to make a point and I'm just not sure why exactly.

Just off the top:

Mickey/Rose
Donna Noble/fiance
Martha Jones/everyone she finds attractive
Martha's Dad/girlfriend.

also have Shakespear/Martha.

 

[pixletwin]

I think it's bigoted to actively complain about one but not the other. Let's put it that way.

Well the other doesn't bother him. I still don't see how that is bigoted. I think perhaps your choice of words is a bit too strong.

bigot - n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I would say the term as applied here applies to you just as much as it applies to prog*. :lo





*This I meant as a joke by the way.

 

[barbelith]

I totally understand the unconscious prejudice. Personally I tried to compensate for that in my complaint about DW.

I have a grandmother who doesn't like "those people" but got angry at Prop 8 because everyone should be treated as equals. I have a lot of admiration for people who allows their better selves to triumph over their ingrained prejudices. Real life is so much messier than "hero" or "villain" and I want to make it clear I'm not trying to cast you personally as a bigot, which is why I've tried to stick with specific comments (and probably failed more often than not). I'm sure I have my own prejudices rattling around somewhere.

I think the mixed relations sticks out more than the gay agenda in this respect so I will use that as an example, the occurance in DW is really far beyond the regular percentage rates of real life.

Actually I would agree with this to a degree. There have only been three interracial relationships as far as I can see ... just based on the flirting I see in real life I don't think things like Shakespeare count, although it was very strange Martha never met a black guy she was into. To be honest I think this has a lot more to do with the TV having a rough time depicting race ... there's no reason the guy in 42 couldn't have been cast with a black actor, but regrettably we get the invisibility of whiteness even in casting.

 

[Kabukiman]

OH GOD...the new TARDIS is horrible...they tried combining old and new and it didn't work...

Stick with the new TARDIS...

We'll see how it looks on screen. Most of the props look pretty terrible before the video is prepped for broadcast. Just watch the deleted scenes on the DVD and you'll see what I mean.

 

[barbelith]

Well the other doesn't bother him. I still don't see how that is bigoted. I think perhaps your choice of words is a bit too strong.

I think the sticking point is he seems to wish something could be done about it. I don't want to speak for him. It's one thing to be bothered by Kirk kissing Uhura; it's another thing to complain about black people being on the show. If that makes sense. I guess we could look at it this way:

People who like Jack flirting with men
People who don't care one way or the other
People who dislike it but think that's their issue
People who dislike it but think it's the show's issue
People who dislike it and want gay activity whitewashed
People who dislike it and want gay characters absent entirely

I'd say the first three are fine. The fourth is a bit problematic but more indicative of cultural lag than anything else. The last two are examples of bigotry. You can't advocate a double standard and pretend to not be a bigot. "I don't have a problem with black people, but do they have to go to school with my kids?" Guess what - you've got a problem with black people.

 

[ProgMatinee]

the new kid is way too pale

 

[barbelith]

bigot - n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I would say the term as applied here applies to you just as much as it applies to prog*.

Well that's the old saw, isn't it - whether integration was bigotry against white supremacists or whether WWII was bigotry against Nazism. I think these are reactionary usages of the term intended to make it acceptable to be a white supremacist or a Nazi. The deciding factor must surely be whether a position is morally wrong (and that opens a huge can of worms, I know).

 

[ProgMatinee]

"People who dislike it but think it's the show's issue"

I guess this is me...but I wouldn't think its the shows issue if it wasn't so obvious that they were TRYING to make it an issue. I can't really validate that beyond just a general feeling based on the frequency and timing of the scenes or lines.

 

[pixletwin]

Well that's the old saw, isn't it - whether integration was bigotry against white supremacists or whether WWII was bigotry against Nazism. I think these are reactionary usages of the term intended to make it acceptable to be a white supremacist or a Nazi. The deciding factor must surely be whether a position is morally wrong (and that opens a huge can of worms, I know).

Perhaps. But in this case we are talking about a television show about a guy with two hearts who travels though time and space in a blue telephone box.

I also think with Prog its not the issues that are pressed so much as the condescension he feels from the writers to the viewers. Maybe I am getting that wrong.

 

[barbelith]

I guess this is me...but I wouldn't think its the shows issue if it wasn't so obvious that they were TRYING to make it an issue. I can't really validate that beyond just a general feeling based on the frequency and timing of the scenes or lines.

Have there been any gay references or characters on the show where you felt they weren't trying to make it an issue? I ask because I actually agree with you re: Captain Jack but I'm trying to get a sense of whether things like Sky and the lesbians come across as part of an agenda to you or whether they come across as characters who just happen to be gay.

 

[barbelith]

I also think with Prog its not the issues that are pressed so much as the condescension he feels from the writers to the viewers.

Hence my last post.